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Thread: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

  1. #141

    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    Well that makes justifying annexation easy:

    "Most of the population aren't your people"
    "Wrong numbers"
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  2. #142

    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    Well that makes justifying annexation easy:

    "Most of the population aren't your people"
    "Wrong numbers"
    The cognitive dissonance is unreal. Well you know how it goes. Step 1 of selling is buying into it yourself. The funny thing is, Putin himself knows these aren't legitimate reasons for annexation, occupation, or otherwise. I'd wager most Russians are aware that this is simply done for strategic and political reasons. Amazing how so many people outside of Russia can't see the simple reality. This isn't about rights or legitimacy, this is about giving all about people to achieve your political aims.

  3. #143

    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    Well that makes justifying annexation easy:

    "Most of the population aren't your people"
    "Wrong numbers"
    "Claims made by the side I support are infallible, if you disagree with me then you are biased". Excellent point, bro.

  4. #144

    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    I wasn't even close to saying that, I was just pointing out the dangerous flaw in your "there is no objectivity" ideology. I didn't even mention sides or infallibility.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  5. #145

    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    That's not my ideology and I have no idea where you got that from. Maybe you should stick to addressing what is said in actual posts instead of implying that someone has "dangerous ideology" by just pointing out the faultiness in logic of the side you support.

  6. #146

    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    That's not my ideology and I have no idea where you got that from. Maybe you should stick to addressing what is said in actual posts instead of implying that someone has "dangerous ideology" by just pointing out the faultiness in logic of the side you support.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Estimations may vary depending on source, not to mention that you can identify as pro-Russian Ukrainian or Malorussian.
    It sure is your ideology. You deny any and all authoritative sources if they don't give you your desired result; writing them off as if part of a conspiracy (that damn Establishment Media™). Therefor, if a country (Russia) were so inclined to annex a place, they can claim to be doing so for their Ethnic interests and, when someone points out Russian ethnicity isn't the majority in that place, say those dissenting stats are just "According to the US and Ukrainian apologists" and annex anyway. There is, after all, no "trustworthy" source, right? So just do whatever you want and claim it is ok.

    And Russia has a lot of practice annexing.
    Last edited by The spartan; December 07, 2018 at 02:46 PM.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  7. #147

    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    It sure is your ideology. You deny any and all authoritative sources if they don't give you your desired result; writing them off as if part of a conspiracy (that damn Establishment Media™). Therefor, if a country (Russia) were so inclined to annex a place, they can claim to be doing so for their Ethnic interests and, when someone points out Russian ethnicity isn't the majority in that place, say those dissenting stats are just "According to the US and Ukrainian apologists" and annex anyway. There is, after all, no "trustworthy" source, right? So just do whatever you want and claim it is ok.

    And Russia has a lot of practice annexing.
    No, clearly I've said that estimations may vary depending on source. Because they do. For both sides, which I was clear about and you totally ignored to make up your wacky argument. On this note I don't feel like replying to you any further, since you clearly refuse to address what I'm saying.

  8. #148
    Derpy Hooves's Avatar Bombs for Muffins
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    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    Russia making clear its hostilities towards Ukraine

    Hundreds of Russian tanks spotted near the border
    https://defence-blog.com/army/satell...h-ukraine.html

    Video shows tanks being transported across the Kerch Strait Bridge to Crimea

    https://twitter.com/GirkinGirkin/sta...36038478934017



  9. #149

    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    It isn't a bad thing. The conflict will de-escalate once remaining Ukrainian troops are removed from Donbass.

  10. #150
    Derpy Hooves's Avatar Bombs for Muffins
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    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    It’ll deescalate when Russian troops are pulled from the area and Putin forces his puppets to the negotiation table



  11. #151

    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpy Hooves View Post
    It’ll deescalate when Russian troops are pulled from the area and Putin forces his puppets to the negotiation table
    Which area? Crimea is de-facto Russian territory and troops in Donbass are mostly volunteers and locals, although there are probably Russian advisors doing training or maybe some spec ops stuff. Also they tried to negotiate with Kiev several times, all to no avail.
    I'm sure they could compromise, if Poroshenko pulls his troops out of Donbass, Putin could throw in a trade deal or two, which would help Ukraine's stagnating economy.

  12. #152

    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpy Hooves View Post
    Russia making clear its hostilities towards Ukraine

    Hundreds of Russian tanks spotted near the border
    https://defence-blog.com/army/satell...h-ukraine.html

    Video shows tanks being transported across the Kerch Strait Bridge to Crimea

    https://twitter.com/GirkinGirkin/sta...36038478934017
    What you're missing is that Russia has created new military divisions and expanded existing brigades near Ukraine all the way back in 2014. Considering the political posture and the fact that most Russian military units are concentrated in the Western and Southern military districts, this isn't particularly "alarming". Nor is it indicative of an invasion. Those forces have to be there regardless, and nobody can say whether they are there for an invasion or as a reactive force. However, considering that Russia's "reaction" is to invade the enemy, it's most likely they are there for contingency, not because there's a "schedule" of invading Ukraine.

    The latest State Armaments Program 2018-2027 has focused heavily on Ground Forces, whereas the previous one was overly generous to the Air Force and Navy. The Navy was actually unable to spend all of their money on time. Considering Russian corruption (even though it's been substantially reduced), that's an impressive feat. The article you linked shows that this armor base is near Yelnya, Russia. Yelnya was once the home of the 144th Motorized Rifle Division, and will be the home of a new Motorized Rifle Division (which will retake the 144th legacy), as part of the 1st Tank Guards Army. The plans were announced in July, 2015. The work on the actual base was finished in Summer, 2017, at which point the 144th was severely undermanned with only 6,000 men for 6 Regiments. Normally 6 Regiments would be 10,000+ men. it looks like they are starting to receive more armor from Moscow.

    This is in addition to two other Divisions being formed near Ukraine's border, 1st Armored Brigade is being expanded to the 10th Armor Division in Boguchar. As well as 150th Division near Novocherkassk. In addition to the Divisions, two Brigades are also being moved from Central MD to the front line in Ukraine. An airbase has recently been finishing or finished construction if I remember correctly. So if you wanted to ring alarm bells, that should've been 4 years ago. On the other hand, these pictures merely look like transporting the last elements of the S-400 battalion they transferred to Crimea (beefing it up from 3 to 4). In addition to finishing up building the units they already transferred back in 2016. I don't really see anything alarming here, this is just "mainstream media" not being experts in this subject matter. Military analysts have followed these developments for a while, and yes, some have been ringing the alarm bells about a Russian invasion of Ukraine considering all of the heavy forces being created near their borders.

  13. #153
    Marcus_Iunius_Brutus_Caepio's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    I'm really sure, Russia invasion spearhead wouldn't consist of T 62 and T 64 tanks...
    "Only kids and simple people like vivid colors." (Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)

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  14. #154

    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    Russian invasion could take many forms. There are a lot of surplus tanks. The Ukrainian Army mainly uses T-62s, and T-64s. One could make the case that Russia is bringing in older modernized tanks to give themselves more deniability as they operate in Eastern Ukraine. Otherwise these may just be simply "interim" tanks. Tanks that the newly formed divisions will train on until newer tanks are available. It's better to have older, modernized, tanks than no tanks at all.

  15. #155

    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    No, clearly I've said that estimations may vary depending on source. Because they do. For both sides, which I was clear about and you totally ignored to make up your wacky argument. On this note I don't feel like replying to you any further, since you clearly refuse to address what I'm saying.
    Of course estimations vary, but that one probably doesn't vary as much as you seem to be implying, at least enough to make annexation seem plausible. You play your game far too often for it to go unnoticed; casting doubt against the legitimacy of information if it doesn't suit your preconceptions (i.e. Hillary is still out there killing), and then strawman your opponents with such gems:
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    "Claims made by the side I support are infallible, if you disagree with me then you are biased". Excellent point, bro.
    Which I have never said or implied anything of the like on these forums. And if you don't want to respond, more power to you. It isn't like we have actual discussions anyways, you just want to play political tetherball, not come to a consensus. It a lot of ways, it is very reminiscent of actual negotions with Russia:
    "Russia, we know, all of us know you have soldiers stationed on Ukrainian soil in the Donbass region."
    "No we don't. Who tells you this, western propaganda?"
    "No, look, we have all seen the evidence, we know that you know you have soldiers there. We need to handle this international issue, we need a solution."
    "Solution to what? Western propaganda? You should try RT"

    And then this very serious issue never gets addressed because Russia had no actual interest in addressing the issue and are willing to boldface lie about it.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  16. #156

    Default Re: Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Iunius_Brutus_Caepio View Post
    I'm really sure, Russia invasion spearhead wouldn't consist of T 62 and T 64 tanks...
    Depends on the situation. If Poroshenko decides to start another offensive (which he might do as a desperate gamble due to his low popularity), Russians might respond. It will most likely be similar to 2008 war, when Russian helped South Ossetians and Abkhazians fight off a Georgian invasion. For the past 4 years Russians were throwing Poroshenko carrots, but to no avail. Might be the time to use the stick.

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