Give region: diplomatic consequences?

[Septentrionalis]

Background: I have played some 200 turns as Rome now on my first long-term playthrough. I have had Macedonia as my only ally since very early in the game, and they have never done anything to break the pact even though I have had seriously under-garrisoned regions neighboring them. I have the entire Illyrian coast down to Laconia in my possession, and Macedonia has had a difficult existence with eastern aggressors east all through my campaign. Now we are both threatened by Getae, who attack Macedonia and attempt to conquer their first region neighboring me, an Eleutheroi region. I do not want to lose my only ally, and I don't want the aggressive Getae neighboring my under-developed and weakly garrisoned Illyrian coast. There are many factions that I need to defend against anyway in despite of having avoided conflict myself unless attacked.

The Getae recently did a series of sieges against said Eleutheroi city and managed to weaken its defenses considerably. They were interrupted by my Macedonian allies, and I decided to seize the moment and besiege the weakened city. I would now like to conquer it and donate it to Mecedonia to strengthen them, keep the Getae at a longer distance beyond a Macedonian buffer zone so I can concentrate on other, quite numerous threats that I face.

Question: Will giving the region to Macedonia help maintain our alliance, or is there some bs game mechanic that sees giving regions as a sign of weakness or some other invitation to break the alliance? If it will make things worse, is there any situation in which giving a region to any faction would be beneficial in any way? Would our alliance benefit from me declaring war on Getae and fighting together?

[Jurand of Cracow]

IIRC: the game remembers gifting the region and if that gifted-to-Makedonia region will fall into Getae hands, and then you conquer it again, you'll get a heavy reputational hit (-1.0, while the scale is between +1.0 and -1.0).
I don't know if it's moddable - if yes, then z3n might have changed it. But I think it's hardcoded.

[Lusitanio]

Like Jurand said, the only know issue is the reputational hit. Otherwise you're free to conquer the city and give it to the Makedonians. Also if you don't have military acess you can try to use the city as a bargain for that.

[Septentrionalis]

IIRC: the game remembers gifting the region and if that gifted-to-Makedonia region will fall into Getae hands, and then you conquer it again, you'll get a heavy reputational hit (-1.0, while the scale is between +1.0 and -1.0).

Like Jurand said, the only know issue is the reputational hit. Otherwise you're free to conquer the city and give it to the Makedonians.

Thank you both. So I assume that there is no repercussion for simply giving the region. It is good to know, however, that I will never be able to conquer it again without reputation loss. I assume that holds even if the faction (in this case Makedonia) no longer exists.

Also if you don't have military acess you can try to use the city as a bargain for that.

A very good reminder. It actually did not occur to me that I could bargain for something in return with my allies. Maybe not just military access but map information too, although it seems that granting map information provokes aggression. Could be a coincidence that factions I exchanged map information with tend to get hostile.

[Lusitanio]

You never bargain with other factions?
Well, granting a city is a big thing in diplomacy, therefore the other factions will accept almost everything because they will be very gratefull towards you.
Yep, I can testify that granting map information provokes aggression, with that occurring both in the vanilla game and in EBII (and other mods by the way). I think it happens because the AI gets to know how many cities you have and where they are, knowing where to send their armies. One thing I do when I play with smaller factions is selling to the other factions my map information, you can get a good amount of money.

[Jurand of Cracow]

One thing I do when I play with smaller factions is selling to the other factions my map information, you can get a good amount of money.

I would consider it as a gamey un-historical exploit. The maps didn't exist at that time, and the knowledge of geography was in the peoples' minds. Even assuming that selling map depicts the transfer of knowledgeable people, it doesn't make sense concerning big sums of money.

[Lusitanio]

I would consider it as a gamey un-historical exploit. The maps didn't exist at that time, and the knowledge of geography was in the peoples' minds. Even assuming that selling map depicts the transfer of knowledgeable people, it doesn't make sense concerning big sums of money.

You're right Jurand, it's kind of an exploit. To my defence, I only do that to the neighboring factions, I do not go all around the map selling my map information. And also, I usually only play Carthage, my fav faction so I don't have a need for that amount of money x)

[Septentrionalis]

You never bargain with other factions?

I actually try to avoid diplomacy apart from establishing trade relations. EB2 is very immersive to me, and I view diplomacy as the weakest thing in the Total War games and the one thing that might break the immersion of this great mod. However, since this time the Macedonians have stayed true to me, maybe diplomacy is better in EB2 and I should not avoid it like in vanilla.

[Lusitanio]

I actually try to avoid diplomacy apart from establishing trade relations. EB2 is very immersive to me, and I view diplomacy as the weakest thing in the Total War games and the one thing that might break the immersion of this great mod. However, since this time the Macedonians have stayed true to me, maybe diplomacy is better in EB2 and I should not avoid it like in vanilla.

Diplomacy is much better in EBII, especially from RTW. It does not have plenty of options, but you could try to use more of it. Some diplomatic decisions can even change what you will do in the campaign. Maybe leaving some factions alive to be vassals? Maybe becoming allies for hundreds of turns without agression (and it happens), who knows?

[Septentrionalis]

Diplomacy is much better in EBII, especially from RTW. It does not have plenty of options, but you could try to use more of it. Some diplomatic decisions can even change what you will do in the campaign. Maybe leaving some factions alive to be vassals? Maybe becoming allies for hundreds of turns without agression (and it happens), who knows?

I appreciate that piece of advice a great deal. It never occurred to me that it would be overhauled somehow. I finally got around to taking the region (Dardania) and sending my emissary. I enjoyed their humanlike and very polite dialogue and the fact that there was some sense of negotiation.

I tried asking for map information and military access (that I don't really need), and they actually rejected the offer, citing them being uncomfortable with foreign armies on their lands. Then I tried just the map information (should be a cinch, right?), and was really surprised that they refused again, but instead offered money and demanded military access (!) on top of it because their enemies "lay beyond your lands". I do not really feel threatened and they have been cruising in and out of my territory anyways in their conflict with the Getae, so I was okay with that. Maybe that will actually bring some depth into the game.

[Lusitanio]

There's still a thing from RTW that is if you demand something from the AI and they refuse, they will probably refuse anything you may demand from them next. That's why they refused to give you map information.
Military access is something the AI is very reluctant to give, so it always depends on what are you willing to offer

[Septentrionalis]

I am taking the opportunity ask if you have any experience in what exactly constitutes illegal military access? If I cannot take the region back now without suffering major reputation hit in the event it falls in the wrong hands, can I at least help my allies keep the region by bringing troops next to their city in the event of a siege?

It is also very curious that the AI factions themselves do not honor lack of military access. Once Macedonia had an army of theirs hanging out deep within my territory for a few turns without attacking me. At one point they just left to fight their enemies.

[Septentrionalis]

can I at least help my allies keep the region by bringing troops next to their city in the event of a siege?

Haha, I guess I cannot. Just moving my own units directly out of the region I just donated caused our relations to be worsened. I just gave myself an okay to load a savegame, move my troops out and then give those ingrates their region.

[Lusitanio]

Illegal military access works good both ways but there are a lot of moments like that when the AI puts troops on your territory and doesn't move for years...
If you don't have military acess, it will always worsen the relations. The best thing you can do to help your ally if the city is under siege (and you don't have military access) is giving money to them, allowing for more recruitment. You can always declare war on the faction that is attacking your allies and attacking their armies in other places (or even the besieger army if you don't mind the relation problem), the less armies they have, the less armies they will send against your ally

[Jurand of Cracow]

. The best thing you can do to help your ally if the city is under siege (and you don't have military access) is giving money to them, allowing for more recruitment.

I wonder if it works in the EBII. I mean: what's holding back the AI from recruiting? Lack of money, lack of recruits (the emptied pools), or other spending priorities (buildings? hoarding). There's a script getting away money if a threshold reached (30k?), so actually you money might be just taken away by the script.

[Lusitanio]

I wonder if it works in the EBII. I mean: what's holding back the AI from recruiting? Lack of money, lack of recruits (the emptied pools), or other spending priorities (buildings? hoarding). There's a script getting away money if a threshold reached (30k?), so actually you money might be just taken away by the script.

I can say all the three of them. I don't remember if you can see it on the EBII diplomacy with other factions or its because of the submods I use, but when you're negotiating with other factions you can see their finances. When they are bankrupt or poor you can help them by sending a good amount of money (around 20k helps). I never give more than that to ensure that the money does not get taken away by the script.
However, I'm very curious about the possible effects of removing the 30k threshold or increasing it to 50k (for example) to see the possible effects on the AI. If someone had the time to test that...

One thing is for sure, in RTW you could feel more the effects of giving money to the AI. I remember trying to stop the Seleucids from get destroyed by everyone and managing to do that by giving them huge amounts of money.