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Thread: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

  1. #61
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganos Paran View Post
    Also, aren't there armies with over 100k men involved in the Bar Kochba Revolt on both sides even in conservative modern estimates? I'm pretty sure the modern numbers are like 200k Jewish troops though I'm not certain about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytaninc View Post
    I simply see no way that there could be 100k men in the Bar Kochba revolt at any given point. I mean that's as many men as the IDF actually deployed in the Six-Day War.
    "Modern numbers" were counted by prof Menahem Mor (see review here) and the only sure thing that can be inferred from the sources is 27,5 thousand Roman soldiers involved in the whole campaign (so at any given point there're fewer, and this perhaps doesn't take account of the vacant posts that happen for each regular army)

  2. #62

    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    I assumed that lad/lass who said that referenced a game, as there is no way you can bring 100k in a single war in TW.

  3. #63
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Well, the EBII is anyway about learning history ;-)
    Actually, this is a very nice example of how the methodology and historical knowledge have developed over the decades. The high numbers of the Roman troops were inferred from the fact the there're dozens of names of units involved in the campaign (Mor: 42). The issue is they're vexillationes, ie (perhaps small) detachments, and they might have served for a short span of time during those years. The Roman bureaucracy was effective enough to put each of them down and thus to record them for us. If we count them each as a legion, one can get to 100k. But this is just a bad reading of sources.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; December 03, 2018 at 07:10 AM.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Priest View Post
    I assumed that lad/lass who said that referenced a game, as there is no way you can bring 100k in a single war in TW.
    I consider the numbers you see in TW to be scaled; in EBII Huge Unit Scale is 1:10 with reality. So an army of 10,000 is equivalent to a real force of 100,000.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  5. #65
    Genava's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I'm glad that it's you, Genava, reacting to this, for I really appreciate your opinions (not that I don't appreciate the others' opinions, it's just I could read the scientific papers info from you - eg. on the Celts and Barry Cunliffe - and they were really worth reading).
    Thank you for these words. I'm not a historian, only an environmental scientist, but I appreciate that my very modest contributions in this forum is interesting for someone.

    why do you think the logistics in the ancient times was better than in the medieval period?
    Obviously, it is a complex talk. There is a known high level expertise of logistics among the Persians, with a good example, the Mardonius's management of the Persian campaign in Greece reported by Herodotus in his histories. Mardonius had to feed tens of thousands of men with the help of several cities, sometimes over long distances. Thanks not only to logistic but to diplomacy. Another well-known example is the logistic and supply system of Alexander the Great which is something really well studied and debated, you can find several articles and youtube videos about it. These two examples show that it was clearly possible and that it is clearly established to have tens of thousands of men fighting against each other and going to a campaign for several years during ancient times. But it doesn't explain why it was possible at this time and not during the Middle Age.

    In comparison, we can look to what is considerate as an exceptional campaign: the Norman invasion by William. To gather between 8'000 and 15'000 men and about 700 ships, William needed the pledge of several lords and he has to convince them. It was the most difficult task and the most long step for the preparation of his campaign. I think it is one of the main factor limiting the logistics of the medieval conquerors: the feudality/feudalism. Contrary to the common belief, medieval kings weren't very powerful. The situation of Anglo-Saxons was even more difficult, all the process initiated by the king Alfred to build a true central authority vanished with his successors letting the vassals and other lords to become more and more powerful and independent. There is clearly a true military administration, but the events show how it was difficult to maintain it through time:
    http://deremilitari.org/2013/07/engl...e-viking-wars/

    For my first guess, I will say the feudalism limited the efficiency of the logistics and of the diplomacy.
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
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  6. #66

    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Mor does say that there are about 27500 troops on the roman side of the revolt, but he is very much on the minimalist side of the debate on the size of the revolt, presenting him as a singular source on the size of the armies in the revolt is quite misleading. This would be like me just citing Werner Eck who’s totally on the other extreme of this debate and argues these numbers to be an close to a minimum value due to the effect the revolt had on the imperial conscription, the fact that resources were pulled from across the empire to respond to the revolt rather than just regional forces and generals, and the triumphs awarded on its conclusion, arguing that the whole empire was involved in this revolt. I can't read German (and am in no position to spend 150 euros on the book for the sake of this conversation) so I can't say I read the review you posted with much care, but looking at English versions of the book Mor’s position as an individual on one of the extremes of this point is made rather clear. While these numbers may be the most that can be specifically ascertained using his assumptions, that by no means constrains the maximum number to any value merely establishing a minimum number involved (it's like saying there are at least 2 legions involved because 2 legions were initially deployed there, that's definitely true, but doesn't provide any strict bounds on the numbers involved). Also how does one quantify the numbers of auxiliaries used without simply creating a baseline estimate and going from there? The only information we have on them is that they were there in some way, shape, or form.

    I also don't understand this fixation on 100k troops being impossible to field in a single army/campaign, we're dealing with entire empires or regions with populations ranging from hundreds of thousands of people to millions. While such armies were probably seldom deployed, likely because it wasn't useful to have that many troops in one location given the mobility and supply restrictions of the period, there is no particular reason such a thing would be impossible especially for a short period of time or with troops from many regions being concentrated for a short period in the case of an empire. The number has no real significance apart from whatever we culturally assign it, if a nation can regularly create 20-50k armies scaling up to 100k is far from impossible, the civil wars openly involved numbers higher than that on both sides and with every troop being a roman soldier.

    I don't quite have time to find specific sources for this debate at the moment, but maybe if it’s still going on in a couple weeks I'll get back with some more thorough journal citations and research.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    This should be in a different topic, it has nothing to do with gameplay tips.

    I would like to add that the medieval period isn't only "western europe", and that the campaigns of the roman emperors in the east (Heraclius, Leo III, Basil I) and the islamic caliphs (sorry i am not familiar enough to know the names of those from memory), show huge mobilizations of forces on par or superior to those seen in antiquity.
    Last edited by Hellenikon; December 06, 2018 at 08:14 AM.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Going back to the tips, does anyone know how to properly charge with cavalry? Sometimes I have good charges and make enemies rout and others they just charge too slow and don't make any damage. I don't get the right way to do it

  9. #69

    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Quote Originally Posted by gangster19 View Post
    Going back to the tips, does anyone know how to properly charge with cavalry? Sometimes I have good charges and make enemies rout and others they just charge too slow and don't make any damage. I don't get the right way to do it
    The trick on how to properly charge with cavalry is to put the unit in a formation as order them to attack. You need around 100 meters of distance to get a good charge.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Quote Originally Posted by gangster19 View Post
    Going back to the tips, does anyone know how to properly charge with cavalry? Sometimes I have good charges and make enemies rout and others they just charge too slow and don't make any damage. I don't get the right way to do it
    Distance, start from at least 30 metres away. Formation - have them neatly arrayed before starting. Start stationary and charge from the stop.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  11. #71
    The Noble Lord's Avatar Holy Arab Nation
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    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Does anyone knows where I can find EBII faction list please? Thank you
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  12. #72
    Genava's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Quote Originally Posted by The Noble Lord View Post
    Does anyone knows where I can find EBII faction list please? Thank you
    I took the list from a french forum and I added a casual description


    • Aedui (les Éduens) - Gauls
    • Arche Seleukia (Empire séleucide) - Seleucid
    • Areuakoi (les Arévaques) - Celtiberian
    • Arvernoi (les Arvernes) - Gauls but with ugly faction symbol
    • Baktria (Royaume de Bactriane) - Baktria
    • Boioi (les Boïens) - Eastern Gauls
    • Epeiros (Royaume d'Épire) - Epirotes
    • Getai (les Gètes) - Dacians
    • Hayasdan (Royaume d'Arménie) - Armenians
    • Kimmerios Bosporos (Royaume du Bosphore) - Crimea
    • Koinon Hellenon (Ligue chrémonidéenne) - Greeks
    • Lugiones (les Lugiones) - Half-Celtic Half Germanic culture (called Przeworsk)
    • Lusotannan (les Lusitaniens) - Lusitanian (Portugal)
    • Makedonia (Royaume antigonide de Macédoine) - Macedon
    • Malkûtâ Nabâta (Royaume nabatéen) - Nabatean (North arabian kingdom)
    • Mamla'ha biMassylim (Royaume massyle) - Numidian
    • Pahlava (Empire parthe) - Parthians
    • Pergamon (Royaume attalide de Pergame) - Pergamon (Hellenistic)
    • Pontos (Royaume du Pont) - Pontic kingdom
    • Pritanoi (les Pritanes) - Celts of the British Isles
    • Ptolemaioi (Empire ptolémaïque) - Ptolemaic
    • Safot Softim biQarthadast (Carthage) - Carthage
    • Sb'w-gwn (Royaume de Saba) - Saba (South arabian kingdom)
    • Saka Rauka (les Saces royaux) - Eastern scythians
    • Sauromatae (les Sarmates) - Sarmatians
    • Senatus Populusque Romanus (Rome) - SPQR
    • Swebôz (les Suèves) - Germans
    • Taksashila (Cité de Taksashila) - North Indians

    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Quote Originally Posted by The Noble Lord View Post
    Does anyone knows where I can find EBII faction list please? Thank you
    Check out the players guide, you'll learn a lot about the mod!
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...for-EB-II-2-35

  14. #74

    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Quote Originally Posted by The Noble Lord View Post
    Does anyone knows where I can find EBII faction list please? Thank you
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-faction-names

  15. #75
    Genava's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Quote Originally Posted by LusitanianWolf View Post
    Check out the players guide, you'll learn a lot about the mod!
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...for-EB-II-2-35
    Very cool guide. I missed it. Thank you !
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Distance, start from at least 30 metres away. Formation - have them neatly arrayed before starting. Start stationary and charge from the stop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    The trick on how to properly charge with cavalry is to put the unit in a formation as order them to attack. You need around 100 meters of distance to get a good charge.
    So from what you say, I guess I have to put the horses in a pretty square formation and while being stopped, double click in the unit I want to charge?

  17. #77

    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    "Gauls but with ugly faction symbol" hahahaha they're my favorite faction but, yeah sure, it could be better. i figured it was just a nod to Sukellos

  18. #78

    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Quote Originally Posted by gangster19 View Post
    So from what you say, I guess I have to put the horses in a pretty square formation and while being stopped, double click in the unit I want to charge?
    If you want the best possible charge, then yes!

  19. #79

    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Quote Originally Posted by gangster19 View Post
    So from what you say, I guess I have to put the horses in a pretty square formation and while being stopped, double click in the unit I want to charge?
    You can also charge without stopping as long as your unit has good cohesion and have enough distance. Also beware of dificult terrain (rocks, trees) and friendly units that might slow down your unit and make them lose momentum or even stop before impact. Also remember tired cavalry is much less effective and only a few units like Cataphracts or Gallic nobles are fit to charge fresh line infantry head on.
    But don't be intimidated, once you learn to properly use it cavalry are absolute battle winners, especially using hammer and anvil or steppe tactics. If the enemy doesn't break after first charge, don't keep your horseman in melee for too long: retreat, regroup and recharge! Look for vulnerable spots in the enemy line (like levies and wavering units) and go after them first.
    If you have light missile cavalry use them to harass and distract enemy units and to detach them from the security of the main enemy force and once you get them isolated and demoralised finish them with simultaneous charges from different sides (while leaving an opening from where they can hope to escape so they don't get into fight to the death mode).
    Last edited by LusitanianWolf; December 07, 2018 at 03:06 AM.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Tips and Tricks - For new EBII players

    Regarding cavalry charges my recommendations are:
    - The unit width of the cavalry should match that of the infantry, for example your front with their rear/flank that you want to make contact with. It shouldn't be wider (wasted power), so it's better it to be equal or slightly less.
    - To order a charge, right click on the enemy unit (single click order), it will make the cavalry unit start walking slowly toward their target. More importantly, it will reorganize it's formation so it becomes tidy and ready to charge, instead of being a mess. I'm not totally sure, but i believe this is what allows a unit to make use of the power_charge attribute.
    - Once the cavalry unit is near, like 60m or so, select the unit and hit the "R" button, in order to make the cavalry start running instead of walk. This will give them the necessary speed for the charge, once they reach 29m (for most units) they will start charging. Units that are very fast like light lancers gain more from having a speed up period before the charge than slow units, but all cavalry benefit - it's much better to run/charge than to walk/charge.
    - Terrain and obstacles (rocks, trees, other units) are very important, also slopes will ruin most charges and make them less effective, depending on how steep they are. The best charges are those on flat terrain or downslope, because in M2TW more speed equals extra damage.
    - After the charge you will see the unit tooltip switch to "fighting" instead of "attacking/charging", as soon as this shows it's when you should withdraw the unit from melee. Ideally you should pay attention to the melee and you'll see how in the first 5 seconds or so the enemy units suffer many casualties, then it will suddenly stop, and progress at a slower pace. That is the point between the charge/fighting switch. It's hard to see unless you micromanage every charge, so noticing the tooltip change (even if it's sometimes delayed by a few seconds) is the easiest and most painless way to check when you should withdraw.
    Last edited by Hellenikon; December 07, 2018 at 04:33 AM.

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