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Thread: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

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    the_mango55's Avatar Reppin the Religious Left
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    Default The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    Anyone who has spent any time on the internet has seen someone reply to criticism with "So much for the tolerant left!" or some variation of that.

    The main problem I see with that is as far as I can tell "The Left" has never claimed to tolerate opposing viewpoints any more than the right, or any other political ideology.

    Various branches of the left are tolerant of races, religions, nationalities, genders, sexual orientations, etc. But I've never heard anyone on the left say that opposing political ideology should be tolerated without complaint. People on the right like to equate tolerance of minorities and oppressed people to tolerance of hatred and bigotry like it's the same thing and that not tolerating both is somehow hypocritical.

    So next time you see someone from the left saying that Nazis need to be punched or something similar, don't bother posting about the "tolerant left" because it's not applicable.
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    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    The left is racist.
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    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    It's usually applicable because it's fashionable now on the authoritarian left to be only tolerant of specially selected races and to be only tolerant of specially selected genders and to be only tolerant of specially selected sexual preferences and to be only tolerant of specially selected nationalities etc.
    This coupled with the fashion of labelling any and all dissenters of extreme left authoritarian dogma as "Nazis" or "proto-fascists" or other dehumanizing terms and then those misapplied labels are used to justify violence.
    This has two negative consequences: It demeans the actual victims of actual Nazi atrocities as if their experiences are comparable to being told that "freedom of speech is more important than feelings", secondly it dilutes the meaning of the word "Nazi" to the point of meaninglessness, which has a further two consequences, actual Nazis can now comfortably hide in plain sight alongside the majority (as the majority is against political correctness) and any attempts to call out genuine Nazis will become more and more impossible. It's a "boy who cried wolf" scenario.
    The exacerbated exclamation "so much for the tolerant left" is generally justified.
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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    It's usually applicable because it's fashionable now on the authoritarian left to be only tolerant of specially selected races and to be only tolerant of specially selected genders and to be only tolerant of specially selected sexual preferences and to be only tolerant of specially selected nationalities etc.
    This coupled with the fashion of labelling any and all dissenters of extreme left authoritarian dogma as "Nazis" or "proto-fascists" or other dehumanizing terms and then those misapplied labels are used to justify violence.
    This has two negative consequences: It demeans the actual victims of actual Nazi atrocities as if their experiences are comparable to being told that "freedom of speech is more important than feelings", secondly it dilutes the meaning of the word "Nazi" to the point of meaninglessness, which has a further two consequences, actual Nazis can now comfortably hide in plain sight alongside the majority (as the majority is against political correctness) and any attempts to call out genuine Nazis will become more and more impossible. It's a "boy who cried wolf" scenario.
    The exacerbated exclamation "so much for the tolerant left" is generally justified.
    Pretty much this. After Obama's push for identity politics, people who used to be centrists in 90s and 2000s all of a sudden became "far-right white supremacist radicals" for calling for things like limiting immigration or lowering taxes.

  5. #5

    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    After Obama's push for identity politics,
    Pictured: Obama pushing for partisan identity politics.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSnAYdQPnOw

    Last edited by The spartan; November 11, 2018 at 03:26 AM.
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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    Quote Originally Posted by the_mango55 View Post
    Anyone who has spent any time on the internet has seen someone reply to criticism with "So much for the tolerant left!" or some variation of that.

    The main problem I see with that is as far as I can tell "The Left" has never claimed to tolerate opposing viewpoints any more than the right, or any other political ideology.

    Various branches of the left are tolerant of races, religions, nationalities, genders, sexual orientations, etc. But I've never heard anyone on the left say that opposing political ideology should be tolerated without complaint. People on the right like to equate tolerance of minorities and oppressed people to tolerance of hatred and bigotry like it's the same thing and that not tolerating both is somehow hypocritical.

    So next time you see someone from the left saying that Nazis need to be punched or something similar, don't bother posting about the "tolerant left" because it's not applicable.
    Well, I can't speak for the American left, but here in Europe, "tolerance" is one of the main cornerstones of "Leftist" beliefs, and it's trotted out whenever they seek to distance themselves from the "right" (i.e. indigenous or well-adapted immigrant conservatives). It's a major buzzword at every demonstration of theirs, just like "diversity". So yeah, not really a strawman. It's only logical for their political opponent to hold them to their standards.
    Also, what Himster said.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Pretty much this. After Obama's push for identity politics, people who used to be centrists in 90s and 2000s all of a sudden became "far-right white supremacist radicals" for calling for things like limiting immigration or lowering taxes.
    Radical militias going to the border aren't interested in limiting immigration, nor is defunding the country a responsible way to lower taxes. The so-called "centrist" is his own worst enemy when he willingly allows such things to happen cuz, "libruls".

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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    The left is racist.
    I'll bite. How?
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    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    "The Left" advocates for racial quotas in colleges and industry, and even seeks to manipulate the ethnic make up of the USA. Generally there is, on "the left" a inclination to assume race as a decisive factor in many aspects of life, and therefore in need of regulation.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    "The Left" advocates for racial quotas in colleges and industry, and even seeks to manipulate the ethnic make up of the USA. Generally there is, on "the left" a inclination to assume race as a decisive factor in many aspects of life, and therefore in need of regulation.
    Two issues; racial quotas and alteration of ethnic make up. The idea behind racial quotas is to provide equal opportunity to those that have been left behind by the system. The purpose is to combat bias, or racial discrimination, not to establish it. The latter issue, alteration of the ethnic make up of the USA, requires some substantiation by you.
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    Aexodus's Avatar stahp
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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    The purpose is to combat bias, or racial discrimination, not to establish it.
    If combatting racial discrimination is the objective they’re not doing a very good job in practice are they.
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post
    I don't understand, clearly if white people simply made better choices to treat others as their equal there wouldn't be all of this justified pushback.

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    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    The idea behind racial quotas is to provide equal opportunity to those that have been left behind by the system.
    I don't mean to pick on you, but this vague notion that society is rigged needs proof. Point to outcome disparity in, say, length of jail sentences, does not prove the justice system is rigged along racial lines The outcome disparity might be explained any number of ways that don't involve racial unfairness. And even if it was, the solution to the problem is not expand and enforce what I will just call "racial management," but emphasis individuality.

    Direct racial quotas have been consistently struck down by the US Supreme Court as violating equal protection. However, that hasn't stopped Harvard from capping the percentage of ethnic Asians admitted by the curious method of consistently scoring Asians lower in desirable personality traits.

    The latter issue, alteration of the ethnic make up of the USA, requires some substantiation by you.
    And there is in the United States a diversity visa program that grants entrance based on country of origin. The USA needs for more Uzbeks, for diversity's sake. I don't believe our immigration should particularly care about an applicants country of origin, all other things being equal. Trumo wants to get rid of this program and implement a merit based immigration system. Democrats oppose that idea and defend this program.

    I can also point to any number of articles published that are positively gleeful that the proportion of Caucasians in the US is shrinking and how that enhances "the left's" electoral future. To the Left racial identity is politically determinate.
    Last edited by Big War Bird; November 11, 2018 at 11:25 AM.
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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    And there is in the United States a diversity visa program that grants entrance based on country of origin. The USA needs for more Uzbeks, for diversity's sake. I don't believe our immigration should particularly care about an applicants country of origin, all other things being equal. Trumo wants to get rid of this program and implement a merit based immigration system. Democrats oppose that idea and defend this program.
    What a distasteful opinion. The great states of the south (Like South Carolina) were of course built on merit immigration I sure there a was long check list for indentured servants slaves and criminal labor shipped over courtesy of the mother Country and of course only the best were in charge. Personally I fine it delightful that people all over the world think it a wonderful chance to come to my country. My great grand parents certainty did they avoided having Germans tell you in detail how work sets you free. Where they grifters, day laborers and petty criminals in generation one - yep. But 3/4 on we can name real a solid lists of education BA/BS MA/MD/Phd/JD... Business owned, Skilled trades workers and really long list of Polacks who volunteered for every US war. I'll take an Uzbeck getting a second chance over a merit - read wealth immigration any day. But of course you are crating a false choice there is no reason to exchange the lottery for wealth. We can certainly have both.
    Last edited by conon394; November 11, 2018 at 11:54 AM.
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    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    What a distasteful opinion.
    Defense of the diversity lotto certainly is distateful.

    I fine it delightful that people all over the world think a wonderful chance to come to my country.
    I agree. And if we grant the a sovereign country can control who enters it with the aim of settling down, a merit based system is the only ethical method of discrimination. There will be times in which day labors are needed, times when they are not. A time for doctors, a time for house cleaners. That's called merit.
    Last edited by Big War Bird; November 11, 2018 at 12:21 PM.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  15. #15

    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    If combatting racial discrimination is the objective they’re not doing a very good job in practice are they.
    You can certainly make that argument and it can be credible if you back it up with substance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    I don't mean to pick on you, but this vague notion that society is rigged needs proof. Point to outcome disparity in, say, length of jail sentences, does not prove the justice system is rigged along racial lines The outcome disparity might be explained any number of ways that don't involve racial unfairness. And even if it was, the solution to the problem is not expand and enforce what I will just call "racial management," but emphasis individuality.

    Direct racial quotas have been consistently struck down by the US Supreme Court as violating equal protection. However, that hasn't stopped Harvard from capping the percentage of ethnic Asians admitted by the curious method of consistently scoring Asians lower in desirable personality traits.
    When black people who commit lesser or equal crimes to that of white men while getting considerably more severe sentences we can easily that there is judicial discrimination. When you see something similar for people of different genders or races while having equal merit receiving different salaries or job application results then yeah, again, we can say there is discrimination.

    Sure, if we dig enough we'll find some examples of badly implemented quotas of any kind. I don't see how they somehow invalidate the concept as a whole.


    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    And there is in the United States a diversity visa program that grants entrance based on country of origin. The USA needs for more Uzbeks, for diversity's sake. I don't believe our immigration should particularly care about an applicants country of origin, all other things being equal. Trumo wants to get rid of this program and implement a merit based immigration system. Democrats oppose that idea and defend this program.

    I can also point to any number of articles published that are positively gleeful that the proportion of Caucasians in the US is shrinking and how that enhances "the left's" electoral future. To the Left racial identity is politically determinate.
    For those that do not now, the diversity visa program of today was established by father Bush. The number of visas issued by this program is 50 thousand on yearly basis. USA being a collection of states with a population over 325 million people, while many of the people in that visa program are already from groups that make up USA population, that's hardly a measure that can change the ethnic make up of USA. The visa program also picks their applicants from countries where there is little immigration from.

    Please do post some of those articles here. 3-5 of them should be enough to give an idea.
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    Aexodus's Avatar stahp
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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    When black people who commit lesser or equal crimes to that of white men while getting considerably more severe sentences we can easily that there is judicial discrimination.
    Unless that’s because of re-offending, yes that’s a situation where we should look to eliminate the discrimination, instead of just offsetting for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post
    I don't understand, clearly if white people simply made better choices to treat others as their equal there wouldn't be all of this justified pushback.

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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    left to be only tolerant ... of specially selected sexual preferences
    psss...this is the Political Academy, not the "You laugh, you lose thread".


    ...and to be only tolerant of specially selected nationalities
    selected...nationalities? nationalities? sorry, I just can't stop laughing.

    Various branches of the left are tolerant of races, religions, nationalities, genders, sexual orientations, etc.
    Indeed.Are aliens about to invade this tiny planet? I don't care about your skin colour, religion, sexual gender, sexual orientation or nationality. There is nothing wrong with that. We live in a multicultural and diverse world, with the web connecting the world.



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    next time you see someone from the left saying that Nazis need to be punched or something similar, don't bother posting about the "tolerant left" because it's not applicable.
    Nazis? Right, it's not applicable. In doubt, ask the Jews. Thomas Jefferson wrote "let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it." But Jefferson wrote it before the beggining of the red century (1917), the rise of fascism and the nazi rise to power. You are certainly not an admirer of totalitarian regimes, exclusive democracies and partial democracies.
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    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Praetorio
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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    Quote Originally Posted by the_mango55 View Post
    Anyone who has spent any time on the internet has seen someone reply to criticism with "So much for the tolerant left!" or some variation of that.

    The main problem I see with that is as far as I can tell "The Left" has never claimed to tolerate opposing viewpoints any more than the right, or any other political ideology.

    Various branches of the left are tolerant of races, religions, nationalities, genders, sexual orientations, etc. But I've never heard anyone on the left say that opposing political ideology should be tolerated without complaint. People on the right like to equate tolerance of minorities and oppressed people to tolerance of hatred and bigotry like it's the same thing and that not tolerating both is somehow hypocritical.

    So next time you see someone from the left saying that Nazis need to be punched or something similar, don't bother posting about the "tolerant left" because it's not applicable.
    Like most of the name-calling from these people, it has nothing to do with left or right. It's usually that somebody has either then or the past been called out for intolerance in some way, and rather than addressing that, they try to make it a whataboutism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    The left is racist.
    Or in some cases they're just hopeless partisan cases.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Unless that’s because of re-offending, yes that’s a situation where we should look to eliminate the discrimination, instead of just offsetting for it.
    That would be you introducing a different criteria to make it appear as if there is a sensible reason for it. I was specifically talking about criminals with similar crimes receiving different sentences.
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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The "Tolerant Left" strawman

    Defense of the diversity lotto certainly is distateful.
    Its rather delightful. On balance such a small sliver of immigration what exactly do you find in it to make yourself so afraid?

    I agree. And if we grant the a sovereign country can control who enters it with the aim of settling down, a merit based system is the only ethical method of discrimination. There will be times in which day labors are needed, times when they are not. A time for doctors, a time for house cleaners. That's called merit.
    This assumes you can forecast what merit is needed or that apparent merit was earned or is a indication of future behavior. I would think the desire to leave you life and be an American would count for something.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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