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Thread: The nature of evil

  1. #21
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    As Jesus does not change into wine or wafers there's no argument to make here.
    I do believe the Pope would beg to differ.

    Now in the days of Noah there was but one land mass so getting the animals to the Ark was no problem especially as God brought them to him. I do wish you guys would read the Bible.
    ???

    One landmass. Sorry even you favorite loopy pseudo scientists can't up with an argument I might buy when seriously drunk for that one. How exactly does a olive tree survive 5 months under water?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #22
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    How exactly does a olive tree survive 5 months under water?
    In my opinion you have just discovered the price of faith.

  3. #23
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Not a recent thing the discovery just not sure any set of myths is convincing. So if God could save an Olive tree why not all the animals? Its not like they were implicated in original sin...
    Last edited by conon394; November 04, 2018 at 02:48 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #24
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    5 people on a boat would not have the same impact. If you need to use a natural disaster to make a statement either go big or go home.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  5. #25

    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Christians are weird they love the adam and eve story but every christian nation bans incest.

  6. #26
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    conon394,

    Yes, there was one land mass until the waters sprung up from the depths incurring earthquakes and volcanic eruptions which changed the landscape quite considerably meaning that during the flood plant life could well have survived as the mountains arose and if you take into consideration the flotsam that would be found also accounts for insects surviving as well. So, in the year that followed much plant life would have survived and where not we find the deserts where all died. That's the power of Almighty God which even when sober you can't take in.

  7. #27
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Yes, there was one land mass until the waters sprung up from the depths incurring earthquakes and volcanic eruptions which changed the landscape quite considerably meaning that during the flood plant life could well have survived as the mountains arose and if you take into consideration the flotsam that would be found also accounts for insects surviving as well. So, in the year that followed much plant life would have survived and where not we find the deserts where all died. That's the power of Almighty God which even when sober you can't take in.
    One Landmass - this is in the Bible where? Second it no basis in observable facts. There is no sufficient water to spring up from the depths.

    'plant life could well have survived as the mountains arose' think about that before you type. For the geographic alteration you suggest happening that fast you are looking at events like Krakatoa not a escalator ride up out oceans.

    That's the power of Almighty God which even when sober you can't take in.
    A fairly simplistic Mesopotamian flood myth does not impress.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #28

    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Yes, there was one land mass until the waters sprung up from the depths incurring earthquakes and volcanic eruptions which changed the landscape quite considerably meaning that during the flood plant life could well have survived as the mountains arose and if you take into consideration the flotsam that would be found also accounts for insects surviving as well. So, in the year that followed much plant life would have survived and where not we find the deserts where all died. That's the power of Almighty God which even when sober you can't take in.
    Pangea broke up around 175million years ago.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangaea


    By stating that the world was one landmass during biblical times you are saying that every single geologist that has ever lived is wrong, and that a book of allegories and parables written by Iron Age sheep herders should be used as a literal scientific textbook. Wow. Just Wow.

    Remind me, what you were saying about how lying to yourself and others is evil?
    Last edited by TheLeft; November 05, 2018 at 08:49 AM.

  9. #29
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    TheLeft,

    Were any of the geologists there when God made all things in the six days He had Moses write down for us to understand? Having made everything mature and then adding to it through the actions of the flood waters, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions we are where we are today. Think of Atlantis, Pompey and Mt St Helens to see how things are changed so easily and these didn't happen billions of years ago. One day this planet is going to be burned up like paper alongside of the complete breaking down of the heavens according to God's word and so taking away the heaven part even the scientists are predicting that, the reason the search for other worlds to be populated by us goes on. You can disbelieve all you want but these things are going to happen and that's when you'll meet your Maker for real.

  10. #30
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Think of Atlantis
    Umm, need I point it not real?

    He had Moses write down for us to understand?
    One author, than the man was a rather poor one at that.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #31

    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    TheLeft,

    Were any of the geologists there when God made all things in the six days
    Firstly, there is no God.
    Secondly, if there were a God, he didn't make all things in six days. Planet Earth was formed around 4.6 billion years ago from a super-heated cloud of rock and plasma, so it took a tad longer than six days.

    https://www.space.com/19175-how-was-earth-formed.html

    Thirdly, geology is the study of the earth. A geologist wouldn't need to be there when the world is formed to determine what happened. He/she is able to look at the structure of rock formations and make a reasonable hypothesis. Besides which, how would that even work? Are you suggesting that because there wasn't a geologist floating randomly in space when the world was formed, it invalidates the entire scientific field? Because that is madness.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    He had Moses write down for us to understand? Having made everything mature and then adding to it through the actions of the flood waters, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions we are where we are today. Think of Atlantis, Pompey and Mt St Helens to see how things are changed so easily and these didn't happen billions of years ago.
    I've no idea what Moses has to do with anything. Even if you follow the Biblical version of events, he wasn't there during Genesis. As far as I remember it, he led the Jews out of Egypt, received the ten commandments from God and then popped his cloggs before getting to the promised land. So I'm not sure what you're talking about.

    Volcanism is continual geological process that has been happening since the planet's formation. It drives the moment of the continents through a process called Plate Tectonics. Just because it is still happening, it doesn't make the scientific method any less valid, in fact it strengthens it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanism
    https://www.livescience.com/37706-wh...tectonics.html

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    One day this planet is going to be burned up like paper alongside of the complete breaking down of the heavens according to God's word and so taking away the heaven part even the scientists are predicting that, the reason the search for other worlds to be populated by us goes on. You can disbelieve all you want but these things are going to happen and that's when you'll meet your Maker for real.
    Which God's word are we talking about? Yahweh? Allah? Odin? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Many different people worship many different Gods or versions of God. All of them are as equally convinced as you are that they have the correct flavour of deity and you do not. So I'm sure you'll forgive me if I don't take your apocalyptic warnings of hell-fire and damnation too seriously.
    Last edited by TheLeft; November 06, 2018 at 08:07 AM.

  12. #32

    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Firstly, there is no God.
    Which God's word are we talking about? Yahweh? Allah? Odin? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Many different people worship many different Gods or versions of God. All of them are as equally convinced as you are that they have the correct flavour of deity and you do not. So I'm sure you'll forgive me if I don't take your apocalyptic warnings of hell-fire and damnation too seriously.
    Before declaring that something does or does not exist, it might be smart to know what it actually is first. There's only one God; it's just the English name for ultimate reality. A god by contrast belongs to an entirely different category of being.
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  13. #33
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    There's only one God; it's just the English name for ultimate reality. A god by contrast belongs to an entirely different category of being.
    Many people would (or have) begged to differ, and be honest even amongst 'the one' crowd there is more than a little bit of difference about that one god.

    "There's only one God" If you mean dictionary wise, in the current time yes capitalized you would be understood to be referring to the singular deity believed in by Judaism and its derivatives. But realistically 'capitalized' 'singular' God would in many places or much of time have not had that meaning or imply a Christian/Jewish/Islamic spin on the meaning. Much as saying 'he theos' in classical Athens was quite understandable to the locals and no doubt seen as pompously annoying by most other Greeks but to a Persian speaking Greek would have no particular implication of the Polis and it particular asserted relationship to one Deity or why an Athenian was using particular form of the noun.

    "for ultimate reality" again a non provable belief that you have to be honest about will not clear until we individually punch our ticket off the mortal coil.
    Last edited by conon394; November 06, 2018 at 09:15 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #34

    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    Before declaring that something does or does not exist, it might be smart to know what it actually is first. There's only one God;
    Really? I'm sure the millions of people around the world that follow polytheistic religions will vehemently disagree with you.

    You are so lucky that you just so happen to believe in the "right" God, and that only you and your fellow coreligionists have stumbled on the ultimate truth and that everybody else is wrong. How convenient...

  15. #35
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    conon394,

    Moses is a central figure in Jewish history because of what he was given to do by God so when the Jews said to Jesus that they worshipped Moses, His reply was that if they did indeed worship Moses they would have known of Him, Jesus, why? Because in Jesus' words, " Before Moses was, I AM." Jesus was saying that He is God, the very God that parted the sea, Who gave them clean water, Who gave them manna and quail and Who finally led them into the land that He had promised Abraham. Oh I know that's too much for many of you to take in but I believe that it's true because God's word has never let me down nor many that I have come to know as brothers and sisters in Christ.

    TheLeft,

    Oh yes, there's a God alright and He did make all things in six days just as He said. It's just that your argument rests solely on nothing but pure assumption thought up by men who cannot see that God in Creation made things mature and up and running and notice how often the word seed is mentioned in Genesis because it is seed that is so important for any life to begin. In the so-called bowl of soup where did seed spring from? If the world and all else came from a big bang how come everything on this planet has to be seeded to reproduce, man, animals, birds, fish and plant life? According to you guys this planet was a molten mess taking billions of years to cool down so where oh where did the seed come from as it needs life to be made?

  16. #36

    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Moses is a central figure in Jewish history because of what he was given to do by God so when the Jews said to Jesus that they worshipped Moses, His reply was that if they did indeed worship Moses they would have known of Him, Jesus, why? Because in Jesus' words, " Before Moses was, I AM." Jesus was saying that He is God, the very God that parted the sea, Who gave them clean water, Who gave them manna and quail and Who finally led them into the land that He had promised Abraham. Oh I know that's too much for many of you to take in but I believe that it's true because God's word has never let me down nor many that I have come to know as brothers and sisters in Christ.

    TheLeft,

    Oh yes, there's a God alright and He did make all things in six days just as He said. It's just that your argument rests solely on nothing but pure assumption thought up by men who cannot see that God in Creation made things mature and up and running and notice how often the word seed is mentioned in Genesis because it is seed that is so important for any life to begin. In the so-called bowl of soup where did seed spring from? If the world and all else came from a big bang how come everything on this planet has to be seeded to reproduce, man, animals, birds, fish and plant life? According to you guys this planet was a molten mess taking billions of years to cool down so where oh where did the seed come from as it needs life to be made?
    Careful in regards to "assumptions". Christianity is based on the assumption that the bible is the literal word of god after being translated from hebrew to greek, to latin, to middle english, and then to modern english. This is all based on the assumption that early hebrew oral tradition is the legitimate word of god in the first place.

    This is without taking into account the "editing" of the bible in 325 during the council of Nicea. Further taking into account the fragmentation of christianity, which "word" is the true "word"? catholic, church of englan, lutheran, jehovah's witness, baptist, mormon?

    Having played my fair share of chinese whispers as a child I find this hard to credit in all honesty.

  17. #37

    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    TheLeft,

    Oh yes, there's a God alright
    Really?? Prove it scientifically with empirical data and I'll be convinced. Until then I remain somewhat sceptical, to put it mildly...

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    He did make all things in six days just as He said.
    I'm going to use an argument just as cogent as yours. Are you ready? He didn't.

    I guess you didn't look at the link I posted earlier? You know, the one with ACTUAL scientific and geological proof? I guess your faith can't be that strong if it is threatened by a web-link. I'll post it again, just in case you decide to take your head out of the sand...

    https://www.space.com/19175-how-was-earth-formed.html

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    It's just that your argument rests solely on nothing but pure assumption thought up by men who cannot see that God in Creation made things mature and up and running and notice how often the word seed is mentioned in Genesis because it is seed that is so important for any life to begin.
    No, my argument rests on science. It's actually the exact opposite of assumption.

    The beautiful thing about science is that it relies on hard evidence, which is then stood up to rigorous peer-review and scrutiny. Science actually tries to disproof itself by demanding that any new discovery is fully tested to the nth degree before being established as fact. Unlike religion which does not rely on hard evidence, cannot be proven and ignores any scientific data which can disprove its (rather shaky) conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    In the so-called bowl of soup where did seed spring from? If the world and all else came from a big bang how come everything on this planet has to be seeded to reproduce, man, animals, birds, fish and plant life? According to you guys this planet was a molten mess taking billions of years to cool down so where oh where did the seed come from as it needs life to be made?
    There are varying different theories. Some scientists say that life was seeded by ancient asteroid collisions, other say that basic, single celled cyanobacteria evolved by chance. We really don't have a definitive conclusion. It really is one of the greatest scientific puzzles of our age. We are dealing with conditions from billions of years ago. The evidence is pretty thin to say the least. To quote Freeman Dyson, a professor emeritus of physics at Princeton University in New Jersey.

    "The solution of a mystery of this magnitude is totally unpredictable, It might happen next week or it might take a thousand years
    But science will not stop trying because human curiosity is infinite. Here's a link which explains the problem far more eloquently than I could ever do.

    https://www.livescience.com/1804-gre...ise-earth.html

    One thing we are certain of, it didn't arise because a giant sky-fairy magically wished it into existence.

  18. #38

    Default Re: The nature of evil

    Statistics are the biggest enemy of the concept of evil. Serial killer statistics, poverty and crime statistics, it really heavily points to determinism.

  19. #39
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    95thrifleman,

    No, Christianity is based on the assumption that Jesus Christ died on a cross for the sins of many, rose from the grave three days later, was seen by over four hundred people and now awaits His return to judge all things. To be a person who believes that wholeheartedly one must be born again of the Spirit of God. That's the difference between the true and the false. The same can be said about Bibles as most contain great errors unlike the KJV which has outlasted and out sold all the others put together. It was through that Book that I was converted so yes I regard it as the word of God. So, interpreting it is not for man rather for the leading and guidance of the Holy Ghost Who dwells in each born again person. Now science does produce results but there is nothing surer or quicker at producing results that the KJV Bible does and has done. In fact there is much science in it if one dares to search it out.

  20. #40
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The nature of evil

    KJV
    Poor translation. Too bad so many Christians seem afraid of actually understanding their own bible and fear the results of refined scholarship and understanding. Although in fact many keep it because it supports certain distinct interpretations that would otherwise not be sustainable.

    It was through that Book that I was converted so yes I regard it as the word of God. So, interpreting it is not for man rather for the leading and guidance of the Holy Ghost Who dwells in each born again person. Now science does produce results but there is nothing surer or quicker at producing results that the KJV Bible does and has done. In fact there is much science in it if one dares to search it out.
    It may produce personal results and if you keep those results as a personal experience that is valid for you. You can't use that as proof in a concrete sense in respect to others. I still curious where is there one landmass before the flood, were are 400+ the sources for the new testament? Certainly your assumption that one person (Moses?) wrote the old testament is not valid, nor did he have 400 witness statements to work from.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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