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Thread: traits without triggers?

  1. #1

    Default traits without triggers?

    Hi everyone,

    I recently got back into the game after several years.
    I was looking at the export_descr_character_traits.txt file in SS6.4/data and noticed that there are several defined traits that don't have triggers (eg: VictorVirtue, BattleScarred, GreekConquer_Constantinople and many others).

    My question is: are the triggers of these traits in another file? If so which one? If they are truly without triggers, why?
    Secondly, if someone could point me towards some resource with lists of possible triggers and explanations that would be great so I can write the triggers myself. For example I'd like to know how to say "if character X conquered Constantinople" or "if character X is in settlement Y" (the latter might be "IsRegionOneOf" but then how do I know which region is which number?)

    Thanks a lot! Sorry if this stuff has been asked before..just point me in the right directions cheers

    Kammamuri

    p.s. I'm running SS6.4 with BygV in case the exact mod/submod version is relevant to the question. I know Byg must have fiddled with the traits, but I can't see why some triggers would be removed.
    Last edited by Kammamuri; October 13, 2018 at 05:15 PM.

  2. #2
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: traits without triggers?

    AFAIR, Byg in his verion V of BGR has removed the vanilla triggers - he was uninterested. I remember it because it was the reason I stopped playing BGR_V.
    If you're interested in triggers, you may have a look at my mod for SSHIP.
    In the workshop on the TWC section, you may find many useful links, including to information what does work, and what doesn't.
    JoC
    Mod leader of the SSHIP: traits, ancillaries, scripts, buildings, geography, economy.
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    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
    Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project and Broken Crescent.
    Recently, Tsardoms and TGC look also very good. Read my opinions on the other mods here.
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    Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: traits without triggers?

    Hello Jurand, thanks for the reply and the links. I checked, and indeed you are right the triggers are there in vanilla SS6.4 but not in BgyV. I really like BgyV for the tactical depth it gives to the campaign, but this traits thing is really annoying. It's unfortunate SSHIP is early campaign (from what I could gather). I feel it would be better to balance them than remove them completely.. a lot of the flavour is lost this way.

    I might try to fix some things, with my limited modding skills. Maybe I'll start with moving back to the training buildings the recruit capability since in BgyV it is tied to walls.. which makes many building chains almost useless and castles basically useless altogether. If I can do that then I could have a look at the traits.

    For now I have fixed the byzantine family tree so that everyone is related to Alexios I Komnenos (as it was irl) .. no more disconnected family tree! If someone is interested I can share the code

  4. #4
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: traits without triggers?

    Yep, SSHIP is starting 1132, don't try to play the high era (even though it's possible - I think I've seen somebody playing it).

    Buildings - in many games the recruitment is tied to the walls and the specialized buildings serve a different purpose (recently I've seen it in the TLK). Maybe you can share your opinion on the ideal recruitment system I"ve proposed?

    Castles - yes, I see what you mean. Indeed, their role is diminished, and in some mods there're OST system, getting rid of them altogether. In the SSHIP I've made them having much impact on the traits so the military-minded generals should stay there. And you can have more fun sieging or defending a castle.

  5. #5

    Default Re: traits without triggers?

    Hello again! I have downloaded SSHIP I haven't had time to properly play it yet, but maybe I'll try a Venice or Pisa campaign at some point.

    At a first glance, there are many things that I love straightaway: map, cities textures, the reshuffled factions, the idea of multiple starts (like bookmarks in Crusader Kings?), ...
    Some ideas seem good, like the realistic population numbers.. but is the game balanced around those? Constantinople's income seems a bit silly.. but I saw the unit prices were also quite high. I'm not a big fan of the new unit cards or the attempt at localisation... for the latter copying names from CK2HIP could make things easier.

    I skimmed through your ideal recruitment system post, and it seems that a mixture of what SSHIP and BygV do would be pretty close to it.

    I have now finished to modify the EDB file to keep Byg's manpower mechanic intact but move back the recruitment to the original buildings such as barracks and archery ranges. I have also reintroduced some of the mechanics of those buildings which he had removed.
    I have achieved this partially using a python script to parse the txt file, and I think that with a bit of thought and extra work (I still had to fix a few things manually) it could be used to patch to BygV any EDB.

    I have a few other ideas.. like addressing the exploit of recruiting and disbanding mercenaries.. but maybe at this point I could put these things in a thread in the submod section (sorry this thread went off-topic). Just one question, do I need any form of approval from someone to post modified files from ss6.4/bygV?

  6. #6
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: traits without triggers?

    The early game is quite balanced with the new population number, in my experience.

    Ideal recruitment system is just mine ideas, but they're not reflected in the SSHIP. If anything, the Broken Crescent system is closer. I don't expect my recruitment system to be ever implemented.

    In my opinion, everybody is modifying EDB and they're not compatible for this reason. We've got a plethora of submods that are developed and played only by 1 person, while none of them is really well developed - and it's the reason why we don't have a mod comparable in historical detail to the Europa Barbarorum or (literary detail ;-) to the TATW. Each modder fixes one problem that is dear to him and he understands but leaves aside like 100 issues that are not important. We need commercial companies to fix this problem of coordination...

  7. #7

    Default Re: traits without triggers?

    I don't think development from commercial companies is ever going to happen unfortunately.

    I see what you mean with everyone changing files and things not being compatible maybe it's time to give Meld some love and merge stuff. Merging is generally easier than doing things from scratch.

    Have you guys tried to make SSHIP compatible with BygV? Is SSHIP the only organised and active project atm?

  8. #8
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: traits without triggers?

    Well, so we're going to muddle through with the existing mods. Actually, this is my general opinion too.

    Merging stuff is not also not easy. I can see it editing the EDCT for the SSHIP - you can see layers and layers of code that at some point begins to be either counterworking or double the mechanisms (I report in descriptions of the changes to my submod - at some point everybody was fed up with drinking and sobriety ;-), it also happens in the other mods, see eg. EBII). There must be much of the understanding of what's going on, or some order (you may have a look at the EDCT to my submod to SSHIP where I try to make some order - at least with the list of contents...).

    I think the SSHIP achieves of what Byg IV aims at and actually, it was omitted (not to mention the BGRV). You may read my review here. The Titanium included BgrIV and - in my experience - it's very unstable, maybe also due to this fact. I've tried to play it but I've given up.

    The RR/RC project by PB is the active one. I perceive the SSHIP to be in hiatus, we'll see if it resurrects at some point. But at least the team members are accessible - eg. Lifthrasir answers the questions on the page (compare it to Titanium, Dawn of Conquest, The Italian Wars, Broken Crescent etc. - the problem is the creators left but didn't pass the baton to somebody else so the development of the mods died).

  9. #9
    Losthief's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: traits without triggers?

    BYG chose to dump all the traits cause he didn't want people auto-resolving battles. His thought process was if you don't have super generals (low stars/traits) then you will fight all battles manually to make up for it. The easiest way he saw to do that was just to cut all the traits for the player generals out. (he added his own for the ai, hence why the ai always has high star generals they get huge bonsues). It was a relatively inelegant solution cause u lose flavour, i would of just dumped the bonuses left the named traits....but then im not a modder and don't know how much time that would of taken.
    LOSTHIEF
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  10. #10
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: traits without triggers?

    Yeah, this is the element in the Byg's thinking that doesn't fit my taste. For two reasons:
    - I don't mind auto resolving if the player is in a much advantage (however, I usually would fight the battles but split my forces before, and attack at lower odds just to have fun an better traits from a difficult battle - but sometimes it just doesn't make sense);
    - actually, if you play the battles, you do it to train your general to be useful also for autoresolving;
    - making great generals is a part of the role-playing;
    - a more sophisticated approach would be to balance all the benefits for Command, but iirc Byg didn't make (many) changes in the existing traits and triggers.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; October 24, 2018 at 02:33 AM.

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