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Thread: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

  1. #1
    Ltd.'s Avatar Senator
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    Icon1 Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)




    Missile Infantry


    Peasant Bowmen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Tier 1 / 13th century







    Frontiersmen


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    Tier 1 / 13th century





    Tier 2 / 14th century







    Tier 3 / 15th centiry






    Archers


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    Tier 1 / 13th century





    Tier 2 / 14th century







    Tier 3 / 15th century






    Crossbowmen


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Tier 2 / 14th century





    Tier 3 / 15th century







    Handgunners


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    Tier 3 / 15th century








    Melee Infantry


    Militia Spearmen


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    Tier 1 / 13th century





    Tier 2 / 14th century





    Tier 3 / 15th century






    Vojnici Spearmen


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    Tier 1 / 13th century





    Tier 2 / 14th century





    Tier 3 / 15th century








    Vlastelčići


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    Tier 1 / 13th century





    Tier 2 / 14th century





    Tier 3 / 15th century







    Vojnici Axemen


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    Tier 1 / 13th century







    Halberdiers


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    Tier 3 / 15th century







    Cavalry


    Cuman Light Horse Archers (made by Lucem Mundum)


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    Tier 1 / 13th century





    Tier 2 / 14th century








    Croatian Cavalry


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    Tier 1 / 13th century








    Baštinik Lancers


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    Tier 1 / 13th century





    Pronijar Lancers - Tier 2 / 14th century





    Pronijar Lancers - Tier 3 / 15th century







    Vlastela


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    Tier 1 / 13th century





    Tier 2 / 14th century





    Tier 3 / 15th century








    Bosnian Vlastela (for the ones who want to re-create the battle of Kosovo in 1389)


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    Tier 2 / 14th century








    German Men at Arms (made by Banskie)


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    Tier 2 / 14th century








    Gussars


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    Tier 3 / 15th century








    Grand Prince


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    Tier 1 / 13th century






    King


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    Tier 2 / 14th century








    Despot


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    Tier 3 / 15th century








    Many thanks to Mattheus for several of the shield textures
    Last edited by Ltd.; October 20, 2018 at 12:12 PM.

  2. #2
    keksimir's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    YAAAAAAASSSSSSSS! This looks great! Thank you for the good work.
    A question though, will the baštinik infantry that we currently have in the game be removed? Are all previous units removed?

    Also, if it is possible in Attila, can you just correct the names of the units?

    Vlastelčići instead of Vlastelcici, Baštinik instead of Bastinik and Vojnik instead of Voynuk (Voynuk is an anglicized version of the name). Vojnik literally means soldier.

    Again, this looks fantastic. You should be proud of yourself!

    How terrible it must be to face us; the sons of the wolf and the bear! Even now fear works in the bowels of our foes! I do not fight with a cool head today, I admit it. My eyes see only a red mist. I do not want them to run from battle, I want their heads on our pikes by evening! We go now to our bloody business!

  3. #3
    Ltd.'s Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Glad you like the units.
    I decided to have the bastinik class as cavalry which in T2 and T3 evolves into pronijar ( need to update the naming in the preview) . The units in the previous preview have all been reworked so what you see here is what you'll get in game.
    Some special characters might not be possible though.

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    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    They are great, and I hope to see them soon in game

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    keksimir's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Not a big fan of the Tier 3 King. Seems too simple but in general i like it. I wish the Croatian cavalry was still here. There were Croats in the battle of Kosovo as well.
    You said that the Baštinik cavalry evolves into the Pronija lancers? So the name will change in game?

    Also i have noticed there is no armour on any of the horses even in later tiers. No shock cav huh?

    Out of all the tiers, tier 2 is the best but overall, great job.
    (Kind of dissapointed we did not get the Voivods unit from the Bulgarian roster as well but oh well)
    Last edited by keksimir; October 13, 2018 at 07:31 AM.

    How terrible it must be to face us; the sons of the wolf and the bear! Even now fear works in the bowels of our foes! I do not fight with a cool head today, I admit it. My eyes see only a red mist. I do not want them to run from battle, I want their heads on our pikes by evening! We go now to our bloody business!

  6. #6
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by keksimir View Post
    I wish the Croatian cavalry was still here. There were Croats in the battle of Kosovo as well.
    "Croatian cavalry" unit had only tier 1 (which is 13th century) so it does not fit time frame for Kosovo battle.

    Note that some other AOR and mercenary units are missing (Almogavars, Cakoni, German knights and so on...) but I don't think they are removed from roster.
    I think its just they did not receive visual update, and as such not presented in preview.
    Ltd. , what do you say ?


    About the Kosovo, yes there were some in Bosnian contingent and probably unit of Hospitaller knights from Vrana under Ivan Paližna.
    However note there is now "Bosnian Vlastela" unit and one of knights has coat-of-arms of Hrvatinić family


    Quote Originally Posted by keksimir View Post
    Also i have noticed there is no armour on any of the horses even in later tiers. No shock cav huh?
    They are shock cav.

    But I noticed trend of removal of horse armor on other factions after their revamp as well.
    I guess at least bodyguards should get some horse armor.

    -------
    from Ian Heath, Armies of the middle ages 2, p. 136.


    --------


    Quote Originally Posted by keksimir View Post
    (Kind of dissapointed we did not get the Voivods unit from the Bulgarian roster as well but oh well)
    why would they get Voivods ?
    Last edited by Matthæus; October 13, 2018 at 08:50 AM.

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    Ltd.'s Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Updated the thread with the croatian cavalry unit that was missing for Tier 1.

    The other mentioned units have not been updated, as Matthaeus has said as well, so I have not included them in the preview. AOR and mercenary units have not been removed from custom battle.
    It is only the core units that have been reworked.

    About horse armour: to my knowledge none of the byzantine or serbian frescoes show any horse armour. There are some records of some horses wearing barding, occasionally, but definitely not widespread. I guess it also depended on who the enemy was the serbians were facing. I´d generally prefer though if balkan factions, even Hungary had only rarely any horse barding.
    I absolutely oppose however gothic horse barding for balkan factions like seen on WE heavy cavalry. It just was not the case.

    About the Voivods: not sure why they should have access to voivods. If you refer to viteji units (like for the vlachs, so a medium-heavy HA unit) , I was on the fence of giving the serbians access to a bastinik (T1) and pronijar (T2) HA unit, but then decided to keep the native units as lancers, and have the cumans fulfill the role of HAs, which was the case historically anyway.
    Native serbian cavalry is indeed depicted with bow sometimes, but that was essentially a "sidearm". The main weapon was the lance, afaik.

  8. #8
    keksimir's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    "In medieval Serbia it meant a high-ranking official and – before the Ottoman conquest in the 15th century – the commander of a military area. During Ottoman times, voivode was the title borne by the ruler of a province, whose powers included the administration, security and tax collection under a special regime. According to the chronicle of the Voutsas monastery, the Slavic title of "voivode", which prevailed in certain areas of Epirus and Thessaly before the Ottoman conquest, used to denote the leader of a Vlach community or family. The word gradually came to denote the governor of a district."

    Voivod or Vojvoda in Serbian is essentially the same thing as it is in Bulgaria. I suppose it is similar to the Vlastela in title but Vlastela do not have their own infantry unit, only the Vlastelcici which is in fact a term for a "lesser noble". A heavy knight type melee unit such as a the vojvoda would make sense to me. Also i have noticed that there are no heavy two handed axemen in the roster and there are no militia units, simple spearmen cannon fodder. The vojnik unit is a trained fighter, would not classify them as "cannon fodder". Don't get me wrong, i like the roster, it just seems to have less units then other factions from the Balkans.

    How terrible it must be to face us; the sons of the wolf and the bear! Even now fear works in the bowels of our foes! I do not fight with a cool head today, I admit it. My eyes see only a red mist. I do not want them to run from battle, I want their heads on our pikes by evening! We go now to our bloody business!

  9. #9
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by keksimir View Post
    "In medieval Serbia it meant a high-ranking official and – before the Ottoman conquest in the 15th century – the commander of a military area. During Ottoman times, voivode was the title borne by the ruler of a province, whose powers included the administration, security and tax collection under a special regime. According to the chronicle of the Voutsas monastery, the Slavic title of "voivode", which prevailed in certain areas of Epirus and Thessaly before the Ottoman conquest, used to denote the leader of a Vlach community or family. The word gradually came to denote the governor of a district."
    That is all true, but existence of title "Vojvoda" tells us nothing about existence of some special military unit under his command.

    Quote Originally Posted by keksimir View Post

    Voivod or Vojvoda in Serbian is essentially the same thing as it is in Bulgaria. I suppose it is similar to the Vlastela in title but Vlastela do not have their own infantry unit, only the Vlastelcici which is in fact a term for a "lesser noble". A heavy knight type melee unit such as a the vojvoda would make sense to me. Also i have noticed that there are no heavy two handed axemen in the roster and there are no militia units, simple spearmen cannon fodder. The vojnik unit is a trained fighter, would not classify them as "cannon fodder". Don't get me wrong, i like the roster, it just seems to have less units then other factions from the Balkans.
    Voivode is high-noble so he is part of Vlastela unit.
    Regarding "knight-type foot unit" - you do realize that cavalry can dismount in battle and fight on foot (this was not possible in older TW games) ?
    It is not needed to have mounted and dismounted unit variants.

    (edited as I misread keksimir's post)

    As for militia units...
    Recruitment of some existing units should be tied to cities - for example "Ragusini Cakoni" are traders from Dubrovnik which serve in defense of city walls.
    But if needed for campaign I guess more units could be done... but presently I don't have much knowledge about the subject.

    2h axe unit - explain please... why should it be present...


    PS
    I hope to see tier 2 mercenary "German Knights"
    Ones we have now are tier 3, and the most famous "user" of Greman mercenaries was Tsar Dušan in mid 14th century.

    PPS
    Keksimir
    Are you from Serbia, right ?
    If I send you text in Serbian you can quickly read trough and write notes ?
    (ja nažalost ćirilicu čitam teško i sporo )
    Last edited by Matthæus; October 13, 2018 at 02:18 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    those troops ara just sick, i can't wait to play campaign

  11. #11

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    The rooster looks amazing!

  12. #12

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthæus View Post
    As for Voynuk or Voynik...
    Who said there were cannon fodder ?
    I would classify them as the essential "hold the line" infantry. Not sure about current stats, but they should be good unit.
    No, he was talking about the lack of Militia Spearmen in the Serbian roster, that each faction should have basic "cannon fodder" units - because it is evident that the Voynik Spearmen aren't one (they're professional middle level unit). Missing such bread-and-butter unit means a gaping hole in town garrisons and basic town recruitment. I'd say they're much more important than things like heavy infantry unit addition or more lesser nobles.

    Quote Originally Posted by keksimir View Post
    Also, if it is possible in Attila, can you just correct the names of the units?

    Vlastelčići instead of Vlastelcici, Baštinik instead of Bastinik
    I've tried, some characters don't show (tried with the Vlach units)
    Last edited by You_Guess_Who; October 13, 2018 at 02:01 PM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by You_Guess_Who View Post
    No, he was talking about the lack of Militia Spearmen in the Serbian roster, that each faction should have basic "cannon fodder" units - because it is evident that the Voynik Spearmen aren't one (they're professional middle level unit). Missing such bread-and-butter unit means a gaping hole in town garrisons and basic town recruitment. I'd say they're much more important than things like heavy infantry unit addition or more lesser nobles.
    My bad, I misread.
    I've removed that part from my post above.

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    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltd. View Post
    Updated the thread with the croatian cavalry unit that was missing for Tier 1.
    About horse armour: to my knowledge none of the byzantine or serbian frescoes show any horse armour. There are some records of some horses wearing barding, occasionally, but definitely not widespread. I guess it also depended on who the enemy was the serbians were facing. I´d generally prefer though if balkan factions, even Hungary had only rarely any horse barding.
    I absolutely oppose however gothic horse barding for balkan factions like seen on WE heavy cavalry. It just was not the case.
    There is at least one known written trace of horse armor being bought from Italy in 14th century:
    "In 1376, Ganinno, master craftsman in Dubrovnik, sold to Bogdan Kirizmić 20 horse armors worth 224 perpers"

    Still, I would only consider armored horse for bodyguard unit of the King (tier 2, maybe 3), not Vlastela unit.

    PS
    this is form one of the forums, but source is supposed this book:
    https://www.delfi.rs/knjige/64065_sr..._knjizare.html

    list of all known transactions in which Serbs bought arms or armor from Italy via Dubrovnik;
    its very interesting to read, armors and helmets being bought by the hundreds... and these are only sales we know...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    1. In 1314, about 100 swords were bought in Venice for King Milutin


    2. On March 28, 1323, Dubrovnik offers as compensation for Stefan Dečanski 2000 Perpers or arms that he had previously ordered: 200 helmets (baccinello), 200 armored shirts and and 250 leg armors


    3. In 1329, through Tomas of Kotor, 50 helmets (Kettle hat, Chapel de fer) arrived in Serbia via Dubrovnik


    4. In 1336 Dubrovnik allowed the purchase of weapons and armor for the King of Serbia, what was found in this procurement was not mentioned


    5. In 1342, in Venice, the purchase of 100 armors (coat of plates) and 500 mail shirts with all necessary parts was approved to the Serbian King


    6. In 1345, in Dubrovnik allowed purchase of weapons and armor for the king of Serbia, what was found in this procurement here is also not mentioned


    7. In 1345 King Dušan bought 300 bascinets in Venice


    8. In 1347, purchase of 500 barbuttas (probably those are "deep" bascinets considering timeframe) for Tsar Dušan was mentioned


    9. In 1349, in Venice, for the emperor Dušan was approved the purchase of 400 shields made in "Serbian style", 100 armors (coat of plates) and 150 armored sleeves


    10. In 1376, Đanino, master craftsman in Dubrovnik, sold to Bogdan Kirizmić 20 horse armors worth 224 perpers


    11. In 1381, German swords were bought in Dubrovnik (possibly Passau, Solingen)


    12. In 1384 Balša II Balšić was granted a license for the purchase of armor from Dubrovnik


    13. Balsa Balšić from the Republic of Dubrovnik gets permission to buy 30 armor and has permission to repair armor in Dubrovnik


    14. In 1389, Stefan Musić received a full armor gift from the republic of Dubrovnik


    15. In 1403, Stefan Lazarevic receives a full armor as gift a of the Venetian Republic for obtaining a despotic title



  15. #15
    keksimir's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    @Matthaeus Yes, i am from Serbia. You need me to read through cirilic texts?

    How terrible it must be to face us; the sons of the wolf and the bear! Even now fear works in the bowels of our foes! I do not fight with a cool head today, I admit it. My eyes see only a red mist. I do not want them to run from battle, I want their heads on our pikes by evening! We go now to our bloody business!

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    keksimir's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Serbia was and is a heavily forested region, an axeman unit makes perfect sense, also we would need something to pierce armor. I dont see a particular unit that is "glass cannon". Considering we do not have any particularly heavy infantry, we would need some type of unit to cut through armor. I have plans to invade England as Serbia you know

    Also, of topic, do we have AoR units in all parts of the world? Would it be possible if i was to take Constantinople to train Cataphracts or the such? I know Serbs dont have such units... i just really like them (who doesn't right?)

    Also there is no mace type unit. Serbian folk songs refer to most epic heroes in Serbian folklore as beating the enemy with a mace. Might be worth considering. Most of the people were iliterate so songs were used to pass knowledge from one generation to the next.
    Horse barding was not common and there was not a lot of it but considering that Serbia is close to Byzantium (or its successor states) and has copied from them, would it be impossible to have some "Cataphracty type" of shock cav, preferably with a mail "balaclava"?

    I know i might be asking a lot and just going full hype mode and asking too much, i am just really looking forward to the game. I am really happy with what you have done so far
    Last edited by keksimir; October 13, 2018 at 04:32 PM.

    How terrible it must be to face us; the sons of the wolf and the bear! Even now fear works in the bowels of our foes! I do not fight with a cool head today, I admit it. My eyes see only a red mist. I do not want them to run from battle, I want their heads on our pikes by evening! We go now to our bloody business!

  17. #17
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by keksimir View Post
    Also there is no mace type unit. Serbian folk songs refer to most epic heroes in Serbian folklore as beating the enemy with a mace. Might be worth considering. Most of the people were iliterate so songs were used to pass knowledge from one generation to the next.
    Vlastelčići tier 3 have them, and probably some cavalry units as secondary.

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    keksimir's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Yes, you are right, did not catch my eye. No pikes though...

    How terrible it must be to face us; the sons of the wolf and the bear! Even now fear works in the bowels of our foes! I do not fight with a cool head today, I admit it. My eyes see only a red mist. I do not want them to run from battle, I want their heads on our pikes by evening! We go now to our bloody business!

  19. #19
    Wallachian's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Depends what you mean by pikes. Actual proper piles and phalanx formation was only used by the Swiss and later in XVth century adopted by other western Europeans like the italians, burgundians, germans etc.

    Anything else are actually not pikes but long spears. For example the italians had the so-called Lanza longs prior to the XV century.

    I suspect that when you are referring to pikes you are talking about the long spear. I doubt that the serbians ever had pikemen in the western european sense but it is possible for long spearmen.

  20. #20
    keksimir's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Grand Principality of Serbia (Complete)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Depends what you mean by pikes. Actual proper piles and phalanx formation was only used by the Swiss and later in XVth century adopted by other western Europeans like the italians, burgundians, germans etc.

    Anything else are actually not pikes but long spears. For example the italians had the so-called Lanza longs prior to the XV century.

    I suspect that when you are referring to pikes you are talking about the long spear. I doubt that the serbians ever had pikemen in the western european sense but it is possible for long spearmen.

    True but the roster could use a type of "long spear". We see the serfs in the Walachian roster use a form of pitchfork that is very long and we have the hooked pikemen in the Bulgarian roster. These sort of "long spears" would be useful for defense. Something that we are lacking here as well as the "cannon fodder" units i mentioned earlier.

    How terrible it must be to face us; the sons of the wolf and the bear! Even now fear works in the bowels of our foes! I do not fight with a cool head today, I admit it. My eyes see only a red mist. I do not want them to run from battle, I want their heads on our pikes by evening! We go now to our bloody business!

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