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Thread: Did Caesar win the Battle of Pharsalus? Or did Pompey lose it?

  1. #21
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Did Caesar win the Battle of Pharsalus? Or did Pompey lose it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudden Death View Post
    Pompey wasn't really "drawn" into a decisive battle. He could have ignored Caesar if he wanted to - he chose to follow Caesar inland for his own reasons, not because he got drawn in and outmaneuvered or something.
    Wouldn't it be kind of dangerous and a tenuous situation for Pompey to ignore Caesar for very long, given how Pompey's army was living off the land in Greece? As almost all ancient armies did when they were on the march, even the well-equipped "mules of Marius" when campaigning for very long and running out of rations. Pompey had to feed his army as much as Caesar did his own, and he would be in a better overall logistical position by opening up supply lines blocked by the enemy in and around Greece, no?

  2. #22
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: Did Caesar win the Battle of Pharsalus? Or did Pompey lose it?

    Maybe I am a bit off topic but the topic of this thread reminds me of the lyrics "...you don't win no silver, you only lose the gold...".
    It's from Sweet Victory, a David Glen Eisley rock ballad, featured in Sponge Bob Square Pants.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Did Caesar win the Battle of Pharsalus? Or did Pompey lose it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Wouldn't it be kind of dangerous and a tenuous situation for Pompey to ignore Caesar for very long, given how Pompey's army was living off the land in Greece? As almost all ancient armies did when they were on the march, even the well-equipped "mules of Marius" when campaigning for very long and running out of rations. Pompey had to feed his army as much as Caesar did his own, and he would be in a better overall logistical position by opening up supply lines blocked by the enemy in and around Greece, no?
    Pompey was supplied via the sea, notably Dyrrachium where the majority of his stores were. If you recall, during the siege of Dyrrachium according to Caesar Pompey had no trouble feeding his troops (except for the horses) as his fleet could supply him indefinitely. If Pompey chose not to follow Caesar inland, or "ignore him" so-to-speak, Pompey's best options then would be to either attack Caesar's supply depots in Epirus, or simply embark his legions, retake Africa, Sardinia and Spain, then form a greater army with which to take back Italy. But the latter option was risky in of itself, since Caesar would be able to roam free in Greece and in the east.

  4. #24
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Did Caesar win the Battle of Pharsalus? Or did Pompey lose it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudden Death View Post
    Pompey was supplied via the sea, notably Dyrrachium where the majority of his stores were. If you recall, during the siege of Dyrrachium according to Caesar Pompey had no trouble feeding his troops (except for the horses) as his fleet could supply him indefinitely. If Pompey chose not to follow Caesar inland, or "ignore him" so-to-speak, Pompey's best options then would be to either attack Caesar's supply depots in Epirus, or simply embark his legions, retake Africa, Sardinia and Spain, then form a greater army with which to take back Italy. But the latter option was risky in of itself, since Caesar would be able to roam free in Greece and in the east.
    Hindsight is 20/20, but do you think Pompey should have struck Epirus instead to threaten Caesar's logistical support? I think you're right about it being a risky move to abandon Greece and hope for the best in Africa, Sardinia, or Spain. LOL. Pompey was probably sick of Iberia, given his arduous experience there fighting against Quintus Sertorius.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Did Caesar win the Battle of Pharsalus? Or did Pompey lose it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Hindsight is 20/20, but do you think Pompey should have struck Epirus instead to threaten Caesar's logistical support? I think you're right about it being a risky move to abandon Greece and hope for the best in Africa, Sardinia, or Spain. LOL. Pompey was probably sick of Iberia, given his arduous experience there fighting against Quintus Sertorius.
    Attacking Caesar's supply depots would force Caesar to march into the east and wreak havoc there, so it's essentially the same outcome as simply embarking and attacking multiple points in the west of the republic.

  6. #26
    Praeses
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    Default Re: Did Caesar win the Battle of Pharsalus? Or did Pompey lose it?

    I think Pompey is actually on the clock at Pharsalus. Caesar has occupied Rome, essentially he's collecting monthly victory points in terms of legitimacy there. The longer Pompey is twaddling about in Hellas the more he and his senatorial gaggle look like refugees and losers, and not the legitimate government.

    The Senate did not put a former triumvir in charge of their legions because they could afford to wait Caesar out, he needed to be fought and beaten. Marius and Sulla had established the principle of might making right, and he who holds Rome holds the world. Caesar was following that playbook, he went to the provinces with an army, made it his own, came back and took the capital and chased his competitors out of Italy. For all intents and purposes, he now was the Senate.

    As had been the case for Sertorius and late the Pompeians, an army and an official rank did not matter if you were roaming the provinces, what mattered was Rome. I think Pompey attacked because his time was up, Caesar held all the cards and just had to put himself in harms way to be attacked.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  7. #27
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Did Caesar win the Battle of Pharsalus? Or did Pompey lose it?

    ^That's definitely the political aspect to their overall strategic thinking and you're right, it shouldn't be discounted. Especially since this was a game of winning over as many Romans as possible to either side.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Did Caesar win the Battle of Pharsalus? Or did Pompey lose it?

    Although it's true that Caesar was a lot more popular in Italy due to his famous clemency, the fact is that Pompey was the official representative of the Senate, which was the government of Rome. If Caesar was decisively defeated, there was nothing really stopping Pompey and Senate from returning to Rome and doing as they like. The only real legitimacy was power, and power was gained through military might, loyal legions. So, it didn't really matter in the end as long as Caesar and his veterans were decisively defeated.

    Both Caesar and Pompey wanted the decisive battle; the stereotype that Pompey wanted to "wear Caesar down through attrition" is absurd, and I'm creating a new thread to lay down some notes as to why this is so, which should be finished quite soon.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Did Caesar win the Battle of Pharsalus? Or did Pompey lose it?

    Any more thoughts on this? Personally, I think Pompey did very well, almost as well as Caesar in fact.

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