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Thread: Janissary Heavy Infantry

  1. #1
    Judeman266's Avatar Senator
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    Default Janissary Heavy Infantry

    @Point Blank
    @ anyone who is interested

    After watching an extensive amount of "Kings and Generals" and other historical battle channels on Youtube I'm beginning to think that the Janissary Heavy Infantry should be exceptional rather than elite if they are not already. Via all their battles in the 14-16th century, their performance and use demonstrate that they should have lock_morale, higher morale, and light_spear to increase their ability to resist heavy cavalry charges. I don't particularly like or use the Turks, but with the expansion of unit quality to include exceptional they fit in with other units that are in that unit quality class such as the Varangian Guard, Dismounted Bekh Druzhina, Norman Knights, etc. Understanding that the Janissary were trained in many weapons and given the limitations of the M2TW engine I'm convinced the heavy infantry version should be elevated to an exceptional GUARD class with higher morale, lock_morale, especially when compared to the already elite Janissary Archers, Musketeers, and Arquebusiers. Obviously, I can edit my own edu but I wanted to know if the community is convinced by my argument and this update should be made to the edu of the main file.
    Last edited by Judeman266; October 07, 2018 at 08:52 PM.


  2. #2

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    I’m actually pretty comfortable with them as Elite, ie a similar training level etc to a Christian knight, starting in childhood as a Page, then progressing to a Squire and finally knighthood at around 20. That approximates the training level of the Janissaries. The JHI are the same training level as the archers etc. Exceptional is mostly reserved for units like Bodyguards, Templars and Merguen. Those and the Dmtd Bekh Druzhina are all low availability, whereas Janissaries are Late Pros and can be recruited in much larger numbers, plus in later years especially they formed a very substantial part of the Ottoman armies.

    When the Normans conquered Sicily they never had more than about 500, and did some pretty amazing things with them eg at Cerami 350 of them attacked around 5000 Muslim troops (from memory) and destroyed them. This was repeated over and over in the Holy Land in battles such as First Ramla, Jaffa and Ascalon, where often tiny Crusader forces routed enemy armies many times their size. After most of the knights went home after the first crusade, having fulfilled their vows (so much for the Crusades being a war of conquest lol) only 350 remained.

    Not sure on the lock_morale, there are quite a few instances of. The Janissaries routing or being driven back, such as the second battle of Vienna. What could be done is make them highly_trained and disciplined and also Fanatic (like the Templars), being +2 attack but -3 defense, which is a pretty lethal combination.

    Giving them light_spear implies changing them to a phalanx halberd unit, which is reasonable. It would make them less effective vs infantry but better vs cavalry yes, and involves a bunch of stat and animation changes - will implement cheers They need more anti-cav.

    Which other channels have you been watching. Invicta, BazBattles, History Time and Real Crusades History are good too.
    Last edited by Point Blank; October 08, 2018 at 08:16 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    I’m actually pretty comfortable with them as Elite
    me too, the only thing i can complain about here is that they should use 1h sword and shield as it's more historically accurate afaik but on the other hand i dont want another shield and sword unit, the halberd makes the turks roster more interesting and diverse (diversity is strength xD)
    You know you've played too much Stainless Steel when in every other mod you play you think cavalry is too weak.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    There a whole bunch, as in a LOT (including a load of Muslim ones) of unused units in the unit models\_units folder, there is almost certainly something that would be suitable as a Janissary sword unit.

    Was having a look and noticed there are also many Georgian units there, and along with adapting units from other factions, that would be hugely helpful in implementing that faction Appropriate units were the main stumbling block in getting Georgia under way.

  5. #5
    Judeman266's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    Iím actually pretty comfortable with them as Elite, ie a similar training level etc to a Christian knight, starting in childhood as a Page, then progressing to a Squire and finally knighthood at around 20. That approximates the training level of the Janissaries. The JHI are the same training level as the archers etc. Exceptional is mostly reserved for units like Bodyguards, Templars and Merguen. Those and the Dmtd Bekh Druzhina are all low availability, whereas Janissaries are Late Pros and can be recruited in much larger numbers, plus in later years especially they formed a very substantial part of the Ottoman armies.

    When the Normans conquered Sicily they never had more than about 500, and did some pretty amazing things with them eg at Cerami 350 of them attacked around 5000 Muslim troops (from memory) and destroyed them. This was repeated over and over in the Holy Land in battles such as First Ramla, Jaffa and Ascalon, where often tiny Crusader forces routed enemy armies many times their size. After most of the knights went home after the first crusade, having fulfilled their vows (so much for the Crusades being a war of conquest lol) only 350 remained.

    Not sure on the lock_morale, there are quite a few instances of. The Janissaries routing or being driven back, such as the second battle of Vienna. What could be done is make them highly_trained and disciplined and also Fanatic (like the Templars), being +2 attack but -3 defense, which is a pretty lethal combination.

    Giving them light_spear implies changing them to a phalanx halberd unit, which is reasonable. It would make them less effective vs infantry but better vs cavalry yes, and involves a bunch of stat and animation changes - will implement cheers They need more anti-cav.

    Which other channels have you been watching. Invicta, BazBattles, History Time and Real Crusades History are good too.
    I'm being nitpicky, but the 2nd Battle of Vienna was literally the end of the Ottoman expansion in Europe and as an Empire. This supports that the Janissary were not at their peak. Consider that after 1648 the devşirme (raising from boyhood) was cancelled and civilians could buy their way in (for the benefits!). I'm unaware of the other instances but I wouldn't say using Vienna 2.0 as an example of the Janissaries quality over the 1370-1680 is accurate. However the training background you gave and the comparisons to feudal vs. late professionals do make sense for their qualifications.

    I would add History Marche to the list. I will check out History Time.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


  6. #6

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    Fair enough.
    Will check out History Marche thanks. Wish none of them existed, they are taking up way too much of my time.
    Edit: Hmm am subscribed to it already, had no idea lol, seems I have watched loads of them already. I really need to stop drinking
    Last edited by Point Blank; October 08, 2018 at 03:02 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry


  8. #8

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    What is the difference between exceptional and elite?

    Would it be possible to make them spearmen archers?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    Exceptional have an additional +1 attack +1 defense +2-3 morale -1 heat -15 attack delay, sometimes faster move speed, better auto-resolve values, sometimes better-quality armor and usually better mental stats and attributes.

    Its possible but I have no idea how to make that change in terms of attachment sets etc; its probably pretty easy. At the moment they have a Light Sword (the cutting/slashing variant as is often used by the Turks); would be a bit awkward for them to be carrying spears while shooting their bows IMHO.
    Last edited by Point Blank; October 09, 2018 at 03:00 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    What about two handed spear + bow?

    Make the spear disappear when bow is equipped.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    No reason it couldn't be done. Was that ever used historically?
    When I said it would be a bit awkward carrying the spear when shooting the bow, yes sure it would disappear but I meant where would the spear go in reality when shooting? Would they put it on the ground?
    Last edited by Point Blank; October 09, 2018 at 06:59 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    No reason it couldn't be done. Was that ever used historically?
    Well, I thought the Janissaries did?

    Most art depictions of them I saw prior to their 16th century musketry trope shows them carrying some kind of light spearlike polearm or a long spear;
    Last edited by Navajo Joe; October 21, 2018 at 10:12 AM. Reason: Removed link to Osprey Picture

  13. #13

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    Given the contemporary rise in Europe of increasingly well-trained spear/pike/halberd formations it makes most sense for Janissaries to be the same.
    Under Construction

  14. #14

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    You could classify that as almost like some kind of voulge, but yes to have that as a secondary weapon shouldn’t be a problem. Now that would be a uniquely great unit! There are three options:
    1. missile archer shoots as elite, melee as average
    2. missile archer shoots and melee as superior
    3. skirmish archer shoots as elite melee as superior
    That is a pretty small bow, makes sense with the polearm, probably more suited to skirmishing.
    Its just a matter of changing the secondary weapon on the Janissary Archer ro be a polearm, should be easy enough, will look into it That Wallachian auxilliary with the halberd is cool too! Would be nice as either recruitable by the Turks or as a merc, will see if its possible.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytaninc View Post
    Given the contemporary rise in Europe of increasingly well-trained spear/pike/halberd formations it makes most sense for Janissaries to be the same.
    As a polearm yes sure, but remember the JHI has a halberd already. However, if we set that to be a phalanx unit so its better vs cav, and maybe the archer above to have one, it will go some way towards making the Turks more competitive in Late Era, except their armor is still behind. Their metallurgy still lacks as well, which is reflected in RC (as in they generally don’t have access to Advanced Metallurgy, and their Improved Metallurgy comes later) and like most Islamic factions they now suffer an additional -1 penalty to metal armors to depict this.
    Last edited by Point Blank; October 09, 2018 at 02:05 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    Well, I thought the Janissaries did?

    Most art depictions of them I saw prior to their 16th century musketry trope shows them carrying some kind of light spearlike polearm or a long spear;

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e7/cf...03f58710dd.png
    Ok working on getting this done, keen to include it, will definitely make a very cool unit

  17. #17

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    How about this model?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails kingdoms 2018-10-15 19-10-40-07.jpg  
    Last edited by Kilgore Trout; October 15, 2018 at 04:12 PM.
    Pleasant it is, when over a great sea the winds trouble the waters, to gaze from shore upon another's tribulation: not because any man's troubles are a delectable joy, but because to perceive from what ills you are free yourself is pleasant - Lucretius

  18. #18

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    The pic isn’t showing.

    Just added 4 of karaislams very nice units to flesh out the Turkish High Era roster:
    Medium javelin and mace
    Medium missile archer with mace
    Medium sword and shield
    Medium 2H axe

  19. #19

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    Here are a few more Turkish models I am using:

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails kingdoms 2018-10-15 23-24-31-62.jpg   kingdoms 2018-10-15 23-26-47-32.jpg  
    Last edited by Kilgore Trout; October 15, 2018 at 04:35 PM.
    Pleasant it is, when over a great sea the winds trouble the waters, to gaze from shore upon another's tribulation: not because any man's troubles are a delectable joy, but because to perceive from what ills you are free yourself is pleasant - Lucretius

  20. #20

    Default Re: Janissary Heavy Infantry

    Here are a few more Turkish models I am using:

    Pleasant it is, when over a great sea the winds trouble the waters, to gaze from shore upon another's tribulation: not because any man's troubles are a delectable joy, but because to perceive from what ills you are free yourself is pleasant - Lucretius

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