[Released] AAA: Greek Generals (v1.0.1)

[TheShatskiy]

Well, I'm looking forward to it!

[suras333]

I think these ideas are very good

[DDOS420]

Sounds great!

[aNarion.]

The spartans really look interesting! Well done!

In the future when release. Is it possible to get a alternative submod(?) with wrath of sparta appearance for GC?

Great work as always Benji!

[Benjin]

The spartans really look interesting! Well done!

In the future when release. Is it possible to get a alternative submod(?) with wrath of sparta appearance for GC?

Great work as always Benji!

Yes, it's possible and I will do that. I'd probably do the same with the generic Greeks in the same submod, since they'll be getting their own appearance in Wrath of Sparta as well.

[eliasandersson]

Amazing progress-update Benjin! Cant wait to see this in my game. I agree with the Rank 9 general though.

[eliasandersson]

Btw, cant wait to see your take on the Empire Divided generals!

[Dead*Man*Wilson]

Great stuff, bro!Thanks for your efforts. You are really adding replay value to the this game.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

After thinking about it a bit more and receiving some more feedback (here + elsewhere), I agree - it doesn't really make sense to break from the established pattern suddenly for just one faction like that.

When it comes to the torso / leg area, I think I'll change the Spartan GC Rank 9's + 10's back to wearing some heavy armour (muscle cuirass + greaves), same with Ranks 5 - 7 (slightly more simple), and Ranks 1 - 3 to wear the red / white linothorax instead. The 3D work put into that clothing + bare chest / arms / legs asset (separating meshes, re-scaling to fit with Rome II armours, re-weighting skin weights to skeleton etc) area won't go to waste though - I already intended to use it for the Spartan Politician variants. What do you guys think?

I think that would make sense.

Actually, let me get some quotes from a book on Sparta, regarding Lacaedemonian dress.

Classical Spartans thus adopted the cheapest style of clothing current in the Greek world, which is surprising given that even the least well‐off citizens were wealthy enough to afford something more luxurious, as displayed in their hairstyle, footwear and staffs. An explanation may lie in Kritias’ enthusiasm for Spartan clothes as ‘the most pleasant and convenient to wear’ (fr. 34 D‐K). The clothes of the rich elsewhere in Greece displayed wealth at the expense of comfort: their long tunics and especially the large cloaks wrapped around their bodies severely impeded freedom of movement, and must often have been very hot, so the tribōn and exōmis were indeed not only cheaper but also more comfortable.89 These garments probably projected an image of the Spartans as dressed pragmatically rather than poorly – dressed to spend their leisure in physical activity, sport and war, not in idleness.

The ornamental tassels may have served to distinguish Spartan dress from plain ‘working‐class’ outfits, signalling that it was not imposed by poverty but freely chosen by men who could afford something more decorative. If there was anything in the notion that Spartans were ‘dirty’, despite the importance of personal grooming in Sparta, it will have been that they got dusty as a result of their active lifestyle rather than that they rejected laundering and bathing as luxuries.90 Beyond hiding economic ​differences, restricting the display of wealth in dress thus served to encourage and emphasize physical excellence: ‘they adorn themselves with the fitness of their bodies, not the costliness of their clothes’.91

Adult men everywhere in Greece carried staffs, but Aristophanes’ sarcastic reference to the ‘little sticks’ of the Sparta‐imitators may refer to a distinctive ‘staff of the crooked type from Lakedaimon’. A series of incidents in which Spartan officers hit subordinates with their staffs shows that Spartans were particularly inseparable from their ‘sticks’ and exceptionally ready to use them as a means of asserting their masculinity and superiority. Such staffs were apparently exported to Athens where they were regarded as a minor luxury.79

The ‘single‐soled’ shoes of Lakonizers were probably not actual Spartan footwear, but an Athenian form of austerity of the same kind as the habit of going barefoot adopted by Sokrates and other philosophers. Spartan shoes, like staffs, were regarded as rather luxurious: Kritias went so far as to declare that ‘Lakonian footwear is the best’ (F 34 DK; Ath. 483b). A comfortable type of shoe known as ‘Lakonian’ was exported to, or imitated at, ​Athens and commonly worn there; they were shoes for men only, and typically dyed red, a colour associated with manliness and superiority.80 Another Spartan type of shoe, the ‘Amyklaian’, is said to have been ‘expensive’ and designed for ‘free men’, i.e. leisured gentlemen.8

(You heard it here first folks, the Spartans exported luxury footwear)

And a quote on women's dress.

No restrictions on female dress are suggested by the critical comments of Plato and Aristotle about the ‘luxury’ enjoyed by Spartan women in the privacy of their homes. Some sources complain that the short tunics sometimes worn by Spartan girls and the robes worn without a tunic underneath by Spartan women revealed too much of their legs, but there is no suggestion that these distinctive styles of dress were seen as in any way austere or luxurious.99 Otherwise, the only evidence for regulation of the personal appearance of women comes from the Aristotelian Constitution, which according to the excerpted epitome said that Lykourgos ‘took away decoration from the women in Lakedaimon. Wearing hair long is not allowed, nor is wearing gold’ (fr. 611.13).100

Full credit for all this goes to Fancy Face, who owns the book these are excerpted from.

[Hoplite of Ilis]

Remove James Hetfield's face as Spartan!

[Benjin]

Another update - this time revealing the Greeks. Before we get there though, I just want to quickly show the revised Grand Campaign versions for the Spartans, based on everyone's feedback so far (which I must say thanks for - without honest feedback, nothing changes), including their "Politician" uniforms. I'd definitely like to hear what you guys think of them, especially the Politicians.

Spartans (Grand Campaign)

Already talked about my ideas / thoughts for the GC Spartans before, but this time I'm getting rid of the "devolving appearance" idea, since it was just confusing (while it may make sense historically-speaking, it doesn't make sense in the context of a game). I'm just going to keep the same old format as before; 1 - "Early" / 3 - "Early-Middle" / 5 - "Middle" / 7 - "Middle-Late" / 9 - "Late" appearances just increasing the value of what their wearing (if anyone is wondering, yes I am covering all 10 Ranks. I am only showing the important ones. The Ranks in between these - such as 2, 4, 6 etc - just change an asset or two to transition to the next. Rank 10 - which I consider to be a Faction Leader appearance (can't set one specifically like in Shogun II / Attila, unfortunately - is either a surprise or I haven't decided yet).

Spartan Uniforms (Grand Campaign)

Rank 1

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Rank 3

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Rank 5

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Rank 7

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Rank 9

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Spartan Politicians (Wrath of Sparta + Grand Campaign)

These uniforms show off the appearance of a General when they are not leading an army, in the campaign map's political menus (only the top half of their bodies are shown in their portrait windows; heads, shoulders, upper torso - anything lower than that I don't need to worry about, such as shoes etc). Personally, I'm satisfied with Rank 1's Politician uniform - I don't want to change that much since it (almost) fits perfectly with the visual reference I used (linked below in in spoilers). For the other Ranks, I'm not entirely sure how I'd represent the rest onwards - I need at least two more to visually represent an Important Character's Early / Middle / Late stage of their careers, with four being the ideal number of uniforms to show off the Early-Middle / Middle-Late transitional stages.

For now I've just given them (Ranks 5 and 9) wreaths to show off the differences visually; a painted gold wooden wreath(?) for Rank 6 and a solid gold wreath for Rank 10. However, this may look too much like the Roman ones I did for AAA Generals: Rome, who I gave various different wreaths to (I also allowed armour to be worn, with a toga drooped on their left shoulders, from for Ranks 8 - 10 as well - showing that their reputation / popularity is so high that they're appearing as a dictator).

What ideas - if any - do you guys have on showing off this gradual visual change to Spartan Politicians? Or maybe you like them the way they are right now? I do not mind if the later versions get a bit fantasy-ish, as this isn't a strictly historical mod, so let me know any ideas.

Spartan Politician Uniforms (Wrath of Sparta + Grand Campaign)

Visual References

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Rank 1

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Rank 5

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Rank 9

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Now finally, we're onto the Greeks. These are for the non-faction specific Greeks, such as the "Greek Rebels", "Rhodes", "Knossos", "Argos" etc. They will also act as placeholders for certain factions which I will eventually be providing unique uniforms for, after the mod's initial release (e.g. WoS Korinthos, WoS Boiotia, WoS Athenai, GC Athens, GC Epirus, GC Syracuse, GC Massilia, GC Colchis / Cimmeria, maybe GC Pontus (they could be put into the "Eastern" category, maybe etc)).

Greeks (Wrath of Sparta)

Starting off with the uniform variants for the Wrath of Sparta campaign - I wanted these guys to not exactly match the Spartan uniforms, which was predominantly muscle breastplates all the way through. Instead, these guys come with two linothoraxes - one of them a new asset - for the first half of their careers (Ranks 1 - 5) and then move onto breastplates / heavier armour for the second half (Ranks 6 - 10). This represents the gradual increasing reputation / wealth of the character; the more gravitas / reputation / higher career they achieve, the more they have to spend on protection / lavishness (I may make some armour retextures for Ranks 8 - 10 or 9 - 10, showing off armour engravings, later).

For Ranks 2 - 6, I want to give a variety of helmets to show off the diverse range of helmets the Greeks wore during this period (e.g. Illyrian, different types of Corinthian etc). The early Ranks start off with older or more simple helmets (e.g. family helmet passed down through the generations, or one recently made for an upstart). At the moment I'm only showing the "Early Corinthian - Closed Face" helmet for Ranks 2 - 4 and the vanilla "Early Corinthian" helmet to Ranks 5 - 6. At the moment, Ranks 7 - 10 wear the same type of helmet, but retextured slightly for each character based on the material of the rest of their armour (e.g. silver, bronze etc).

By the way, all heads / skins for the rest of the uniforms (Greeks, Seleucids, Macedonians etc) are placeholder - I want the quality overall to match the historical character's / new Spartan's / Celticus' HD skins, not the vanilla game's awful quality ones.

Greek Uniforms (Wrath of Sparta)

Faction Colouring - "pel_Akaian"

Heads are placeholder until I get them HD-ified

Rank 1

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Rank 3

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Rank 5

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Rank 6 (Example of transition between 5 to 7)

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Rank 7

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Rank 9

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Greeks (Grand Campaign)

Same themes again (e.g. half-lino, half-breastplate), but this time set during the time period of the Grand Campaign.

So, the older-style helmets (e.g. Illyrians, Corinthians) are now a rarity (they might appear for one or two of the thirty Important Character appearances I have planned, though). Instead, they have mostly been replaced with Thracian / Phrygian / Macedonian-styled ones, loosely representing the historical evolution of the Greek helmets from over time from Wrath of Sparta to the Grand Campaign. Just as I said before for the WoS uniforms, different materials are worn by different characters (e.g. some wear silver, some wear bronze, some may wear a mixture etc). At the moment I'm only showing silver versions, since I've already shown the bronze variants for the WoS uniforms.

The later ranks have become incredibly lavish compared to their WoS counterparts - awesome cloaks, awesome shields, awesome greaves etc (engraved muscle breastplates will be added later).

Greek Uniforms (Grand Campaign)

Faction Colouring - "rom_Athens"

Heads are placeholder until I get them HD-ified

Rank 1

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Rank 3

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Rank 5

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Rank 7

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Rank 9

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Rank 10

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That's the generic Greeks now covered. Again, please let me know what you think of them!

The next update will show off the Seleucids (one uniform art set, since they only appear in the Grand Campaign).

[suras333]

I think they all look very good

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Already talked about my ideas / thoughts for the GC Spartans before, but this time I'm getting rid of the "devolving appearance" idea, since it was just confusing (while it may make sense historically-speaking, it doesn't make sense in the context of a game).

Actually, I'm not entirely sure whether it would entirely make sense within the context of the game either. In late-era Sparta, the elites of the city if anything, became wealthier and lived in greater luxury. That was because while the city's fortunes fell, the Spartan elite's estates increased in size as they obtained control of more and more land. In the Hellenistic era, the old dress codes broke down, and until the reforms under Cleomenes, the city's wealthy would flaunt their wealth openly. And since the GC Sparta is during the Hellenistic era, you could probably get away with including some more elaborate sets. (Though of course, the 'austere' classical Spartan look is pretty iconic)

By the way, have you thought of including some stuff for Epirus? Or at least give Pyrrhus a unique model, since he doesn't have one?

[Benjin]

Actually, I'm not entirely sure whether it would entirely make sense within the context of the game either. In late-era Sparta, the elites of the city if anything, became wealthier and lived in greater luxury. That was because while the city's fortunes fell, the Spartan elite's estates increased in size as they obtained control of more and more land. In the Hellenistic era, the old dress codes broke down, and until the reforms under Cleomenes, the city's wealthy would flaunt their wealth openly. And since the GC Sparta is during the Hellenistic era, you could probably get away with including some more elaborate sets. (Though of course, the 'austere' classical Spartan look is pretty iconic)

By the way, have you thought of including some stuff for Epirus? Or at least give Pyrrhus a unique model, since he doesn't have one?

Huh, I didn't know that - thanks for the info!

Yeah I have thought about it, but only a little - I've been more focused on the other factions. I eventually want to give Epirus a unique set after the initial release - I've already got 12,000+ VMDs (VariantMeshDefinitions - basically character files) to get right, with each character's head being retextured into HD / old age versions, and then providing subtle armour / helmet variations to make them stand out more from each other.

When I do them, I'm thinking of maybe basing them on the visual depictions of Pyrrhus. If you've got any ideas for what a certain faction's Generals should look like, then let me know.

Pyrrhus Visual References

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[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Huh, I didn't know that - thanks for the info!

Yeah I have thought about it, but only a little - I've been more focused on the other factions. I eventually want to give Epirus a unique set after the initial release - I've already got 12,000+ VMDs (VariantMeshDefinitions - basically character files) to get right, with each character's head being retextured into HD / old age versions, and then providing subtle armour / helmet variations to make them stand out more from each other.

When I do them, I'm thinking of maybe basing them on the visual depictions of Pyrrhus. If you've got any ideas for what a certain faction's Generals should look like, then let me know.

Pyrrhus Visual References

I also posted some quotes regarding Spartan civilian dress in the Classical era a few posts back. Scroll up and you'll see them.

I think basing it on those depictions of Pyrrhus should be pretty good. After all, we do have a bust of the man.

[Dead*Man*Wilson]

This is going to get me to finally play a Spartan campaign. Can't wait to see what the other Hellenic factions will look like.

This mod really adds an element that was missing. Love this project. Cheers!

[TheGr8Apostate]

Hey, first of all let me preface this by saying, your Rome AAA generals and the styles that followed were amazing...

I do think you have the chance to do something special, especially when you look at how culturally diverse and impressive Egypt was, especially at the time of the start of the game.
I think for Egypt having a more like 50/50 split and then going higher towards rank up, and maybe faction leader really being VERY Egyptian looking. Yes I know everyone is gonna say well they were a Hellenic kingdom.... and while technically true it wasn't in the sense that they were forcing Hellenic ways onto Egyptians, in fact the inverse is true. The Ptolime dynasty did all they could to assimilate and give credence to their pharaoh title, going as far as adapting they pharaoh customary dress and incestual relations to keep a pure bloodline.

Also with that said, the women generals are an even better mark for you to do something that no one has done or thought of, even if this part were a submod like your (marian, polyibian style addons for rome)

anyways this is gonna be cool regardless, just love history especially that of the cradle of civilization

[Benjin]

The first release is getting closer every day - I now just have around 16 models that need separating / skin re-weighting / shape changes, and then I'll be re-texturing a lot of stuff (e.g. HD Greek heads, HD old age Greek heads, armour colour variations, engraving details for high ranks etc). I don't know if I said it already, but these Greek General showcases are mainly showing off what models the character files will be using with some placeholder default textures - the end results won't all look the same as what I'm showing now.

Seleucids (Grand Campaign)

As said before (page 1 - list of factions and their armour preferences), the Seleucid Generals are designed to look more like cavalry commanders. They're more likely to wear cavalry helmets, arm armour and faceplates the higher they rank up; by the end they'll look very heavily armoured. Because they'll eventually be wearing a lot of heavy armour and Generals must have a shield due to the campaign animations requiring one, I thought it'd be a good idea to give them a smaller / lighter shield too compared to the rest of the factions who all use big hoplon shields.

Seleucid Uniforms (Grand Campaign)

Faction Colouring - "rom_Seleucid"

Heads are placeholder until I get them HD-ified

Visual References

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Rank 1

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Rank 3

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Rank 5

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Rank 7

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Rank 9

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Rank 10

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You may not have noticed, but the last few helmets have had their textures changed. Celticus has kindly provided HD textures for the "hellenic_cataphract_helmet_01" asset, making the later ranked Seleucid Generals' helmets look very good when viewed up close.

HD Textures - Hellenic Cataphract Helmets

Old

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New - Bronze

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New - Silver

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Let me know what you guys think!

The next update will be showing off the Bactrians.

[suras333]

They look awesome

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Those are some sexy Sillykids.