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Thread: Greece to sell historical monuments to pay debts

  1. #21

    Default Re: Greece to sell historical monuments to pay debts

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post

    Is there any credible source? It seems to me like a propaganda story from an anti-austerity site, so I'd like to confirm its veracity. It doesn't matter if it's in Italian or any other language.
    The alt right blog of Yannis Varoufakis funded by Russia and promoted by Cambridge Analytica.
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/yanis...l?guccounter=1

  2. #22
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Greece to sell historical monuments to pay debts

    Apart from being a professor at Cambridge and a number of other top-tier institutions, what has Yanis ever done with his life? /monty python
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  3. #23
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Greece to sell historical monuments to pay debts

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    The alt right blog of Yannis Varoufakis funded by Russia and promoted by Cambridge Analytica.
    Let's be precise, I didn't say alt-right, I said anti-austerity and my suspicions were apparently justified. Varoufakis is a typical example of a charlatan that threatens common sense and his country's stability, in order to satisfy his need for publicity and power. His name has been associated with meaningless populism against austerity, instead of presenting a politically realistic counter-offer. However, despite his shady record, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt about his claims being obsolete (the article dates from 2015). Right now, the president of the fund, the honourable Mr. Diamantopoulos, is a pure Greek. European institutions have a presence in the supervisory committee, but neither Spanish Figueras nor French Le Pape come from beautiful Deutschland. The institution, as well as the absolute majority of the shares are administered by the Hellenic Ministry of Finance, not Germans, Jews, Bolsheviks and etc. As I previously explained, it's a national organisation that has been tasked with performing a traditionally right-wing economic policy, cheaply selling public property to individuals and private companies. Feel free to criticize it, I also agree with that move, but denouncing it as a globalist/communist/cosmopolitan plot is simply surreal. Sometimes, we need to face the real reasons for an unfortunate situation, instead of blaming the innocent, in order to protect our contradictory worldview.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    I wasn't aware that Crete begins with venetian occupation;
    Neither did I.

  4. #24
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: Greece to sell historical monuments to pay debts

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    You mean the austerity policy which was imposed by other countries and the IMF? The Greeks are to blame for getting into the mess but it's completely detached from reality to say that they are to blame for not getting out it.
    Quote Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina View Post
    austerity is a product of EU demands. the "globalist elite" is a scapegoat for the right, because it would be rather self-defeating if they just came out and called out what is at work here: global capitalism. i am not surprised the greek right is trying to scapegoat a leftist government that now has to clean up the mess.

    is the EU a neo-liberal cluster? sure is, but sadly, it still beats a warring mess run by nationalist bug-eyed crazymen. present company excluded, oc.
    ya miss this one?

    and they do indeed share an ideology with the people who helped rip their country off, so yeah, blaming the commies is kinda cheap.

  5. #25
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Greece to sell historical monuments to pay debts

    Seems to me that the average greek is blaming the current government in the same breath as the IMF et al and quite frankly I do not blame them. It's blatantly obvious to anybody with a basic understanding of macroeconomics that austerity is a self-defeating tactic and leads to money being funneled out of the country.
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  6. #26

    Default Re: Greece to sell historical monuments to pay debts

    The IMF are the ones that turned Argentina from 8th world economy to third world, then applied the same recipies to Greece. It's a serious problem, economists demand the status of scientists, without being held accountable for what they do. If a scientist blows up his lab, he gets his funding withdrawn. IMF economists have blown up countries, they are still held as high ''scientific'' authority on matters. Of course, they keep repeating the same.

  7. #27
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: Greece to sell historical monuments to pay debts

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Seems to me that the average greek is blaming the current government in the same breath as the IMF et al and quite frankly I do not blame them. It's blatantly obvious to anybody with a basic understanding of macroeconomics that austerity is a self-defeating tactic and leads to money being funneled out of the country.
    absolutely. austerity is common problem, but greece is having the worst of it, since they were ed to begin with. britain is showing signs of erosion, not to mention spain and italy, and germany comes out on top mostly by virtue of being too big to fail. personally, i consider merkel a lesser evil, blessed with a ship that is hard to sink.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Greece to sell historical monuments to pay debts

    There's a rumour the Acropolis is next, not sure if true.

  9. #29
    dogukan's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Greece to sell historical monuments to pay debts

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    The price of globalism
    EU is actually the opposite of globalism as it is by its definition a REGIONALIST entity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    The IMF are the ones that turned Argentina from 8th world economy to third world, then applied the same recipies to Greece. It's a serious problem, economists demand the status of scientists, without being held accountable for what they do. If a scientist blows up his lab, he gets his funding withdrawn. IMF economists have blown up countries, they are still held as high ''scientific'' authority on matters. Of course, they keep repeating the same.
    Or you know, the structure of the economy was outdated and they faced it with extreme consequences due to delays.
    Not to suck up to IMF, but what woul you have done? Putting the blame on IMF is a typical leftist critique without offering any content or alternative.

    So specifically, can you tell what the IMF did wrong and what should have been done in specific cases where IMF wrecked countries?
    Last edited by dogukan; September 23, 2018 at 04:18 AM.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  10. #30

    Default Re: Greece to sell historical monuments to pay debts

    Actually, it is the IMF fault, entirely. Argentina was doing fine in the 80s until the IMF suggested ''fix your exchange rate to the Dollar so that you attract investors''. Argentina trusted that. The fixed exchange rate caused a drop in interest rates, thus the Argentinian started borrowing.

    Big problem: you can keep a currency peg so long that your currency reserves can handle that. The fixed exchange rate caused Argentinian goods to be overvalued over time, Argentina went from net exporter to net importer, meaning that they started running out of Dollars to keep peg. Eventually, they had to let it go and everything fell apart.

    This is rather similar to the Greek/Italian/Spanish/Portuguese experience. They picked a fixed exchange rate (the Euro) which destroyed their trade balance over time while artificially lowering their interest rates, leading them to overborrow. Now they can't quit the fixed exchange rate, so they are on their way for a permanent stagnation.

    Want another example? Saudi Arabia. They have a peg to the Dollar to keep their currency stable regardless of oil fluctuations. When oil dropped a few years ago, to keep the peg Saudi Arabia started depleting its currency reserves. Unlike Argentina and Greece, Mohammad Bin Salman opted for a rather brutal way to replenish them. He jailed his billionaire relative, tortured him, squeezed him of Dollars and replenished his country's coffers. Just to show the amazing results of fixed exchange rates, a fetish of IMF economists, who fap at the idea of a world currency in the name of globalization.

  11. #31
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Greece to sell historical monuments to pay debts

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    There's a rumour the Acropolis is next, not sure if true.
    No, there isn't, you (or your source) simply missed the point of the ironic remark made by the association of guards at archeological sites quoted in your opening post:
    Is Acropolis next?!
    I don't think you have understood the issue at hand, Basil. A list of public assets potentially destined for privatisation was published by a local tabloid. Nothing is next, because the list had already been completed before 2018, so any similar "rumours" are either insincere provocations or the result of misunderstanding. What happens here is that thousands of buildings owned by the Greek state, including a noteworthy number of "second-class" monuments are offered for private exploitation, in order to save the authorities from paying their expenses and also provide them with some badly needed money to serve its enormous debt obligations. Anyway, do you want to comment on my previous arguments about the nationality of the fund's president, the fact that privatisation is a core aspect of right-wing economics and not of "cultural Marxism" and that the alleged "destruction" of (among others) Catholic, Islamic and Jewish monuments can hardly be considered as an attack against Greek Orthodox identity?
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 23, 2018 at 05:36 AM.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Greece to sell historical monuments to pay debts

    If you haven't noticed by the previous sarcastic reply to you, I refuse to address anything that paints me as a Nazi conspiracy theorist.

  13. #33
    dogukan's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Greece to sell historical monuments to pay debts

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Actually, it is the IMF fault, entirely. Argentina was doing fine in the 80s until the IMF suggested ''fix your exchange rate to the Dollar so that you attract investors''. Argentina trusted that. The fixed exchange rate caused a drop in interest rates, thus the Argentinian started borrowing.

    Big problem: you can keep a currency peg so long that your currency reserves can handle that. The fixed exchange rate caused Argentinian goods to be overvalued over time, Argentina went from net exporter to net importer, meaning that they started running out of Dollars to keep peg. Eventually, they had to let it go and everything fell apart.
    Why don't you mention why Argentina had to go to IMF in the 80s in the first place?

    Also, I am not sure you are telling the right story here. AFAIK, Latin American economies had what is called an import-substitute industrialization with fixed exchange rates with an overvalued currency. They were not export oriented at all.

    I am not sure if what you say about IMF forcing them to fix exchange rate to dollar is accurate. IMF was an advocate of FIAT from 80s and onwards. I don't know if that was the case in Latin America.
    The previous already existing "fixed exchange rate" was almost always fixed to the dollar. Dollar is the world's reserve currency today, and so was back then. There is no point in fixing to another currency.
    Latin American ISI economies have borrowed immensely from existing capital abundancy due to oil revenues at the time (obviously in dollars, not in pesos or rials or denars or whatever).

    The failure of Argentina in 80s is largely due to the structure of their economy being invested in the wrong strategy for so many decades. You can say IMF didn't do a great job there by forcing a rapid and painful restructuring unlike other unorthodox reformist strategies, but saying Argentina's fall was IMF's fault is extremely inaccurate. IMF loans came in 1980s, long after the painful stagflation began.

    IMF's orthoxy from 1980s to end of Asian Financial Crisis is what gave it such a bad reputation. IMF is indeed at fault for its recipe-like standard structural adjustment programs. Their attitudes have changed immensely in the past decade where they go as far as accepting capital controls as short-run measures. But they weren't the ones that put countries into economic crises.


    This is rather similar to the Greek/Italian/Spanish/Portuguese experience. They picked a fixed exchange rate (the Euro) which destroyed their trade balance over time while artificially lowering their interest rates, leading them to overborrow. Now they can't quit the fixed exchange rate, so they are on their way for a permanent stagnation.
    The problem in EU is indeed the premature adoptation of Euro to incompatible economies with extremely different structures and business cycles. But how is this IMF's fault?
    The idea of eurozone was to create a optimum currency area. This failed because it requires a huge political integration towards federalism. EU severely lacks the fiscal transfer mechanisms that would be required to balance the diversity in EU economies. Not only does EU lack this mechanism, but what little transfer exists through structural funds, CAP etc. are highly, HIGHLY disputed already.
    Though it is worth noting that one of EU's motivations was to rival dollar as a reserve currency and not be reliant on dollar too much. So it was also a bit of necessity as well. Ultimately, the problem in EU is its rigid system's failure to move towards further integration due to politics and culture. They are stuck at an unsustainable model. They either have to retreat or push forward with integration. Otherwise, currency system is pretty painful. Though since 2014, EU created new emergency funds and stuff but this is still not going to be enough on the long run.

    Want another example? Saudi Arabia. They have a peg to the Dollar to keep their currency stable regardless of oil fluctuations. When oil dropped a few years ago, to keep the peg Saudi Arabia started depleting its currency reserves. Unlike Argentina and Greece, Mohammad Bin Salman opted for a rather brutal way to replenish them. He jailed his billionaire relative, tortured him, squeezed him of Dollars and replenished his country's coffers. Just to show the amazing results of fixed exchange rates, a fetish of IMF economists, who fap at the idea of a world currency in the name of globalization.
    I do not know where you are getting your information from but I never heard IMF advocating fixed exchange rates. Fixed exchange rates WILL deplete your reserves if your economic structure is not fit for the situation or if you face the contagion effects of speculative attacks. Asian financial crisis is the best example. They all had fixed exchange rates which led to a currency crisis until IMF intervened (except in Malaysia where they brought capital controls by bashing Soros to stabilize currency). A FIAT regime allows an economy to a lot more flexible to currency crises, which is what IMF suggests. Not fixed rates. Fixed rates being orthodoxy are a thing of the pre-1980s in the Bretton Woods era.

    Today's fixed regimes are mostly about UNDERVALUING for export competitiveness like East Asians do, especially Chines. Back in ISI era, it was about making imports cheap which is what brought down Latin American economies like Argentina.

    It seems like your anti-globalist ideological obsessions are leading you to read circlejerk material which often distorts the empirical reality. I am not a huge fan of IMF as a leftie, but lets at least get the facts straight.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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