A good and true Medieval Mod?

[Fahnat]

There is a huge amounts of mods on Medieval II, but weird enough i never find out the definitive Medieval mod for Medieval II.
Stainless Steel is the best known, but i don't think that it's to vanilla like. I wanted to see something like EB II or Rise of Three Kingdoms.
I've looked into some mods, like Bellum Crucis, but there is something always missing; being unfinished versions or not quite portraying the time-period.
So i've seen this going around and wanted to ask if this submod is something to look foward as something that can feel this desire to have a unique and satisfying medieval time period mod?

[Point Blank]

Your choices are between this mod, SSHIP and Titanium. Our intention is to make this the definitive medieval-era M2TW mod; it's been around in various stages of development for over 10 years now.

Have a look at the Release thread for further details.

[Jurand of Cracow]

There is a huge amounts of mods on Medieval II, but weird enough i never find out the definitive Medieval mod for Medieval II.
Stainless Steel is the best known, but i don't think that it's to vanilla like. I wanted to see something like EB II or Rise of Three Kingdoms.
I've looked into some mods, like Bellum Crucis, but there is something always missing; being unfinished versions or not quite portraying the time-period.
So i've seen this going around and wanted to ask if this submod is something to look foward as something that can feel this desire to have a unique and satisfying medieval time period mod?

I agree with your assessment: the lack of the definitive mod portraying the medieval times - like the TATW for the Tolkien's world, or the EBII for the ancient times.
IMHO, the reason was that the moders were unable to get together - first, using the words of Gigantus, they're all prima donnas, second, no team-making-person appeared as Quintus Sertorius for the EBII (and he build upon the former team work of Foot), third, there're many visions what "a unique and satisfying medieval time period mod" should mean. The question is: what you're looking for?
I've recently (this year) produced some reviews of the mods: you may find them here.
I recon the Stainless Steel mod-family to be closest to ideal - especially because they contains Germancus RBAI and Point Blank's RR/RC. I agree with PB on the qualities of the SSHIP and Titanium, but I'd add that I had many stability problems with Titanium (script seems to be bugged - see the discussion on the submod's webpage), and also that in the past I used to play SS in the form of the HURB and also SS-BtfB-BGR_IV - in both cases the mods were very good and may provide you with good experience. However, both have their problems (especially the inherent stack-spam, the rather botched-up triggers for the traits).
cheers
JoC

[Point Blank]

Agreed, there has been a lot of fragmentation and division of effort. Partly that is because SS has been around since 2007 I think it was, and the original development team has mostly gone. I myself have been largely absent for the last five years.

Each mod has its pros and cons. When we speak of something like TATW, there is a consistent vision, a mythos, that underlies the mod from the ground up. That is rather more difficult to do for the medieval period because, as JoC says, everyone has somewhat different ideas on what it should look like and how to depict certain aspects, recruitment and the economy being two good examples - not to mention we are covering a period of around 500 years, with all the drastic changes that entails.

Those of us who are still here now have been around a long time, in some cases putting in many thousands of hours, and have the best interests of the mod at heart. Hopefully we can find the way forward

[Kilgore Trout]

For me it's been SS6.4 with RR/RC, ReallyBadBattleAI, and BGRV that has done the trick. Admittedly, the unit models are mostly vanilla, and so I've had to replace them with the incredible models from Staluga, Broken Crescent, and Bellum Crucis, but other than that, with the above mods, SS6.4 is a vast improvement over vanilla Medieval II in every way. Of course, now we have the RR/RC Ultimate Edition, and while I will miss BGRV, happily BGRIV and ReallyBadBattleAI are included, and so much more, so I think the poster's query has now been answered with the decisiveness and finality of a zweihander coming down hard.

[achilles-91]

I agree with problem that every modder want his own mod. If modders can get together with giving up on some ideas for greater good, we would have ultimate mod.

[Point Blank]

I've had to replace them with the incredible models from Staluga, Broken Crescent, and Bellum Crucis

Do you think you could please send to me those models etc and any changes you needed to make to battle_models.db? I can work on getting permission for their use.

[Fahnat]

Regular Stainless Steel is enjoyable, but i see it as quite vanilla; almost like what the actual medieval II game should have been.
As for the submods, some take important factions for others, such as taking Genoa, and missing some important settlements.

It is hard to specify what i would want from a medieval mod, but maybe reach the amount of building and character traits and ancillary details that something like EB and Rise of Three Kingdoms have. Giving more detail maps that and more turns than 2, maybe 4, or even reaching to 12, but of course that mod would had to be slow paced.

I agree with your assessment: the lack of the definitive mod portraying the medieval times - like the TATW for the Tolkien's world, or the EBII for the ancient times.
IMHO, the reason was that the moders were unable to get together - first, using the words of Gigantus, they're all prima donnas, second, no team-making-person appeared as Quintus Sertorius for the EBII (and he build upon the former team work of Foot), third, there're many visions what "a unique and satisfying medieval time period mod" should mean. The question is: what you're looking for?
I've recently (this year) produced some reviews of the mods: you may find them here.
I recon the Stainless Steel mod-family to be closest to ideal - especially because they contains Germancus RBAI and Point Blank's RR/RC. I agree with PB on the qualities of the SSHIP and Titanium, but I'd add that I had many stability problems with Titanium (script seems to be bugged - see the discussion on the submod's webpage), and also that in the past I used to play SS in the form of the HURB and also SS-BtfB-BGR_IV - in both cases the mods were very good and may provide you with good experience. However, both have their problems (especially the inherent stack-spam, the rather botched-up triggers for the traits).
cheers
JoC

[Point Blank]

BGR adds many traits, and we have other integrated sub-mods that add multiple traits and ancilliaries, plus as a further 19 optional ones including a 2TYP (WiP). More buildings have been added as well.

It really depends on your focus; the initial one for this mod was a more realistic combat system that realistically depicted the progression of weapon / armor technology and tactics in the period 1100-1600, and a recruitment system that provided historical context and as much authenticity as possible given the limitations of the M2TW engine.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I agree with problem that every modder want his own mod. If modders can get together with giving up on some ideas for greater good, we would have ultimate mod.

Yeah, there's even more to it: communication and team work. The more people, the more communication needed to make everybody understood what is planned. Then a team has to follow somebody lead, not to stray away (and temptations are numerous). The team leader should be the guy for the mod - playing it, having a vision, knowing ins-and-out of moding, mechanisms, history etc., being disciplined, but above all: able to talk to all the cooperation primadonnas. I think it's very difficult to combine all qualities in one person.
And even then there're difficulties. I may witness ideas and modding styles of various people in the SSHIP EDCT.txt. Various mechanisms, colliding sometimes. Also in the EBII I've discerned this.

[Fahnat]

As far as i've seen, not counting that i can't make this submod work for me, Bellum Crucis seems to be the best mod about medieval times, but unfortunately, with the addition of the enhanced submod everything is in italian. Even the previous english version was atrocious. Still, i see good things in that mod. More factions, regions, historical inspired units, historical buildings, and great details on historical characters and their noble families. Them also having popping up the years of history like in EB

[Jurand of Cracow]

As far as i've seen, not counting that i can't make this submod work for me, Bellum Crucis seems to be the best mod about medieval times, but unfortunately, with the addition of the enhanced submod everything is in italian. Even the previous english version was atrocious. Still, i see good things in that mod. More factions, regions, historical inspired units, historical buildings, and great details on historical characters and their noble families. Them also having popping up the years of history like in EB

While I agree that there's much work on depicting history with precision, and there're many interesting things important for the Italians, I've unfortunately experienced really terrible CAI and diplomacy, and also quite unbalanced campaign. I find SS-family mods to be better from this point of view.

[Aper]

While I agree that there's much work on depicting history with precision, and there're many interesting things important for the Italians, I've unfortunately experienced really terrible CAI and diplomacy, and also quite unbalanced campaign. I find SS-family mods to be better from this point of view.

I'm quite interested in what you think about this, can you be more specific please? What version did you play, the newest with PiterAI or the old 6.3 with BrancaAI?
To me the turnoff was the EDU stats, they didn't seem very well-thought. Love the mod anyway but I liked the old 6.3 version more because it had a Real Combat conversion submod.

[kostic]

I am working to give a more realistic view of the Middle Ages of the 12th and 13th century with regard to the appearance of soldiers and others ... a first version is here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...logy-Costumes)
The next is under preparation: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ostumes)/page2

Maybe my mod can interest you?

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'm quite interested in what you think about this, can you be more specific please? What version did you play, the newest with PiterAI or the old 6.3 with BrancaAI?
To me the turnoff was the EDU stats, they didn't seem very well-thought. Love the mod anyway but I liked the old 6.3 version more because it had a Real Combat conversion submod.

It was 6.3. From my notes:
- period of initial peace was irrelevant (at the end there's nothing to do), while immediately after everybody attacked immediately (I've played vh/vh).
- however, after some time only the largest factions were busy, the others did nothing.
- the merchants were snipers - coming just to attack the mine.
- the council system was complicated but at the end irrelevant to the gameplay.
- elite units are very cheap compared to the normal ones - there's no choice, you always recruit everything available.
- battles in the cities got stuck more than in the other mods. Also the BAI was not very reasonable (as compared to the RBAI from the SS).
- on the historicity of the faction I know best: a person who created the Polish faction didn't have a much knowledge on the Polish initial situation, historical figures etc.
- the generals are very difficult to kill (high HP), so you fight mainly with them (low risk of losing). On the other hand there're very few management traits that make role-playing not interesting.
Recently a guy played 7.0 and voiced an opinion, it may hint at something.

[Point Blank]

I am working to give a more realistic view of the Middle Ages of the 12th and 13th century with regard to the appearance of soldiers and others ... a first version is here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...logy-Costumes)
The next is under preparation: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ostumes)/page2

Maybe my mod can interest you?

Oh yes very much, those units look fantastic! The problem is they instantly make a lot of other one look crap It’s never easy updating the battle_models file but other than that and some minor changes to the EDU it should be easy enough to integrate them, cheers

[Kilgore Trout]

PB,

These units mostly come from Staluga, which is a submod for Bulat Steel. Bulat Steel is based on SS6.4. The original models came from other mods, but they have been altered to fit the expanded faction rosters of Staluga and to provide upgrades for units, such as those imported from Broken Crescent, which have no upgrades.

I have put these units into some of the factions in my SS6.4 with BGRV. However, I used a quick but gigabyte heavy method of doing so. I copied the entire unit_models folders from Staluga, Broken Crescent, Bellum Crucis and a few other mods into my SS6.4. I then renamed the unit_models folders to, for example, stal_models for the folder from Staluga. I also renamed the battlemodeldb for each in a similar fasion (see attached image). I was then easily able to copy and paste the units I wanted to import into my SS6.4 from the battlemodeldb of Staluga or the other mods I wanted to import units from. But once again, this is probably not the proper system to use for RR/RC Ultimate Compilation, and of course you would have to get permission to use the entire unit_model folder from the creators of Staluga and any other mods.

A better idea might be to contact Achilles-91. He knows more about these units and others, and the modders who made them, then probably just about anybody, I think. Not long ago he was working on a huge project to upgrade the units for SHHIP with new rosters and models. Perhaps with the release of RR/RC Ultimate Compilation he would consider a simpler project of just working on the eye candy aspect. Unfortunately, I am far too busy with work to undertake this project myself.

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[Point Blank]

Cheers mate, sounds good, will do

[Frosted Flaker]

I'd just like to bring this thread back from the dead to ask a quick, kinda meta question.

I've been playing TW titles since Rome, but it wasn't until the addition of Steam Workshop support that I got into mods. I loved that I could just tick the 4 boxes in the Rome II workshop and DEI would be set up. More than that, every new release would not only be downloaded, but installed automatically. If I wanted different models, banners, whatever I just had to find a compatible mod and tick a box. That's just DEI! I could tick 4 other boxes and start up Age of Constantine, and be playing pretty much and entirely different game. Imagine if EB was that easy to install in 2004! I think we'd have a very different mod community.

I got so into mods for Rome II, Attila, and the Warhammer titles that I started going backwards. The mods for earlier titles are on messageboard style forums, there are tonnes of dead links, or links that require me to download a mod in several parts from different sites, all have installers, and complicated patches, and submods that need files place in certain places etc.

Most importantly, like you said there are so many mods that went nowhere, or competing mods that did the same thing, or submods where one guy branched off to do his own thing. It's not like Warhammer where I know SFO is the more in depth mod and Radious is the mod with tonnes of stuff. Knowing that DEI (Rome 2), Fall of the Eagles (Attila) and Crucible of Kings (Britannia) are made with a coherent shared vision across titles, and if I want something more arcadey there's a Radious mod for each title too, has been really something.

Do you think that Steam Workshop has changed the game? Do you think that if the next saga title is set in the middle ages, or the next historical release is Medieval 3, there will be a definitive vision of a medieval mod?

[Frosted Flaker]

I'm just blown away how the teams from Ancient Empires (Attila) and DEI (Rome 2) have cooperated in a way, for years now, that has brought an antiquity Total War I would never have dreamed about to life. I'd really like to see how an Empire 2 with Workshop or a Medieval 3 could bring so many people into that kind of experience without being hobbyists. The multiplayer alone, with everyone playing the same version, and "casual" players being able to play too, wow.