RR/RC 2.0 Ultimate Edition, Patch #2 Released

[Erunion Telcontar]

Point Blank - keep it up, you rock!

[Point Blank]

Cheers mate, wish my dysfunctional PC did too

[Hellvard]

Hello PB, can you upload your glorious mod on some torrent? I just can't download it, it stops every time after 4-5GB

[Point Blank]

Hello PB, can you upload your glorious mod on some torrent? I just can't download it, it stops every time after 4-5GB

Will do after my PC comes back - again. Now the CPU is a problem, damnit.

[merocaine]

Hey PB,

Just a quick suggestion, this is something that has bugged me from way back in 1.8 and 6.4. and is something I usually change myself. Mounted crossbows are unlocked at the very start of the Late era Campaign, but you can only recruit them from upgraded stables in citadels. This means for the most part you only get access to them in the 1400's. (in 6.4 at least) By this time they are already obsolete as Heavy Armour and high quality long range missiles start to predominate. Might I suggest that they can be recruited from Archery Ranges in Fortresses? This would give the western factions some tactical variation in the early game.

[Hellvard]

Mounted crossbowmens should be avalibale even earlier. I don't have knowledge about western Europe, but in Poland they were majority of every army from XIIIth century

[Mamlaz]

Yes, mounted crossbowmen should come earlier.

They were present in armies in Germany since at least 1238, same goes for the surrounding countries probably.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Mounted crossbowmens should be avalibale even earlier. I don't have knowledge about western Europe, but in Poland they were majority of every army from XIIIth century

I'd rather contest this claim. According to the literature I've read - see eg Michal Bogacki page 155 - in the 13th century the Polish knights didn't use the crossbow in the battles, just for hunting. There're foot crossbowmen in the armies, admitedely. The available evidence shows that the mounted crossbowmen were dominant in the Polish armies in the 15th century, especially the latter part (page 237), even though "in the previous years the share of the crossbowmen in the Polish units must have been significant".
As for the European dimention, the various innovations of the late 12th / early 13th centuries (see eg K. Kwiatkowski page 421): hook and pulley, stirrup, nut in the trigger mechanism, aiming practices etc. made crossbow infantry much more useful formation on the battlefiled. The mentioning of the "presence" in the armies usually marks the first successful implementation of an innovation, not their wide use.
All in all, my conclusion is: the current RR/RC is roughly ok, or rather skewed towards too early introduction of the mounted crossbowmen.

[Hellvard]

Of course knights were not using crossbows on battlefield But they were not the majority of armies in terms of numbers either, if you are refering to knights as the noblemen on horse with armour, lance and so on. The most numerous warriors were members of knight"s retinues, and majority of them, armed much lighter than their masters were using crossbows.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Of course knights were not using crossbows on battlefield But they were not the majority of armies in terms of numbers either, if you are refering to knights as the noblemen on horse with armour, lance and so on. The most numerous warriors were members of knight"s retinues, and majority of them, armed much lighter than their masters were using crossbows.

As I understand what Bogacki means is: the Polish mounted warriors (irrespectively of their social status) didn't use crossbows in 13th century. Certainly, there're no evidence for it - neither archeo, nor written. He presents it in comparison to the Western Europe where the ruler uses crossbowmen a lot (if for infantry) and shows that adoption of the technology took place like a century later.
Plus one may also see it logical: the major improvements to the crossbows were just being phased in the Western Europe and Meditteranean and were pertinent to the foot crossbowmen. It's usefulness for cavalry was smaller (eg stirrup) and required more innovations.

BTW - there Historic Books' Fair in Warsaw for another 4 day, I think one might find much academic literature there, also on the relevant subject ;-) I'm going to visit it anyway.

[merocaine]

All in all, my conclusion is: the current RR/RC is roughly ok, or rather skewed towards too early introduction of the mounted crossbowmen.

Yeah thats cool, no problem with that, its because they are only unlocked with the first level of stables in the citadel that causes a problem. In 6.4, because it takes so long to get a citadel they are obsolete by the time they are fielded by the player, useless vs infantry, useless vs plate armoured knights, late horse archers, murdered by archers and crossbows. Added to that, I have never seen the AI field them, because of the same reason, its so hard to get a citadel and build a stables. If they could be produced by a fortress we might actually see them on the battle field. At present only the moors and the Poles are able to field mounted crossbows.

[Point Blank]

That’s fine will push them down to Fortresses. Will check their recruit_priority_offset so maybe the AI finds them more desirable, and take a look at their recruitment bonuses/ penalties in RR as applied to individual factions.

A ‘Lance’ of 3-4 mounted warriors would often consist of one heavy horseman and two mounted retainers and/or a squire armed with a missile weapon.

[Mamlaz]

"in the previous years the share of the crossbowmen in the Polish units must have been significant".

Crossbows become a common sight in Poland since the late 13th century;

"In medieval Poland this kind of missile weapon first appeared during the second half of the 12th century, and became much more widespread during the 13th century. For example, Duke Bolko I of Swidnica was credited with recruiting crossbowmen into his hold troops as early as 1286." - Medieval Polish Armies 966–1500 By David Nicolle, Witold Sarnecki, page

Though, this is for infantry crossbowmen.

As for the European dimention, the various innovations of the late 12th / early 13th centuries (see eg K. Kwiatkowski page 421): hook and pulley, stirrup, nut in the trigger mechanism, aiming practices etc. made crossbow infantry much more useful formation on the battlefiled. The mentioning of the "presence" in the armies usually marks the first successful implementation of an innovation, not their wide use.
All in all, my conclusion is: the current RR/RC is roughly ok, or rather skewed towards too early introduction of the mounted crossbowmen.

Crossbows were quite popular in Germany, France and Italy even since the late 11th century, Anna Comnena describes the crusaders using them instead of bows.

Baha ad-Din ibn Shaddad describes the crusader crossbowmen rivaling Saladins archers on the field in his 12th century writings.

The crossbow was already a battlefield present weapon in the 11th century, and with such draw weights that Anna Comnena describes the crossbowmen having to sit down and pull the strings by using both hands and feet in order to reload.

The development of the mechanical parts of the crossbow was merely a line advancement on top of an already powerful war weapon, in order to make it more easier to use.

[Point Blank]

From memory, crossbow types in RC are:
wooden crossbow, used mostly by peasant militia etc
light crossbow, also used by mounted troops I think
composite crossbow
heavy composite crossbow
steel crossbow
arbalest
+ pavise versions of some.
Better-quality shooters get +1 damage to depict better quality crossbows etc.
All have approximately historical appearance dates and also reload times/animations. Range is set between effective range and maximum range, with a slight bonus for crossbows due to them needing to be loaded first. Weapon range, the range at which the weapon was most commonly employed, was considered but rejected for simulation purposes.
Accuracies are in correct proportion to shooter quality and crossbow type, taking into account relative skill levels versus bows for example, such that lower-quality crossbowmen are more accurate than archers but better-quality ones can be less. Bolt velocity is taken into account in this as well as dispersion. Dispersion is a weapon characteristic such that its projectiles will tend to strike different areas of the target even if it is aimed at the same spot, an effect which increases with range. Crossbows are quite poor in this regard because of the short bolts, and the later versions such as Steel Crossbows even worse because they are almost over-powered.
As from Patch #2 crossbows can successfully shoot at and from units stationed on settlement walls.
Overall, the RC missile model considers pretty much every possible factor involved, including others not ennumerated above.
Some factions have increased availability of these units in RR, eg Genoa, sounds like Poland should have that too.

[Point Blank]

PROVISIONAL FACTION LIST FOR LATE ERA 1370 GRAND CAMPAIGN
———————————————————————————————————
England
Scotland
France
Burgundy, similar roster to France
Portugal
Castille
Aragon
Marinids, formerly the Moors, possibly merged with Zayyanids and Hafsids
Ottomans, formerly the Seljuk Turks
Egypt
Jalayrids, formerly Kwarezm
Georgia, using a mix of BC units with appropriate upgrades and some from other mods
Timurids
Golden Horde, formerly the Mongols
Novgorod
Moscow, formerly Kiev
Poland
Lithuania
Teutonic Knights
Holy Roman Empire
Denmark, or Union of Kalmar
Norway, or Union of Kalmar
Sweden, if Union of Kalmar is used
Byzantium
Hungary, will integrate aspects of the Magyar Mod, mostly the units once I get permission
Wallachia and Moldavia
Venice
Milan
Naples, formerly Sicily
Florence, using a mix of Venetian and Milanese units
Papal States

It might be a good approach if Denmark and Norway are merged into the Union of Kalmar, because Denmark in particular does not have many competitive Late Era units

Removed Factions
—————————-
Cumans
Crusader States
Possibly Denmark and Norway will be merged into the Union of Kalmar, could include Sweden
One free faction slot

New Units
—————-
Many updates because a lot of the existing ones are not relevant or used in the Late Era

[merocaine]

Wow sounds good!

No Scotland though? Admittedly not a very exciting faction, full of brave heart rubbish units, with an awful skin, it looks like the Scotland football team. You half expect them to be sponsored by Tennents.

https://stainless-steel-mod.com/Scotland/Scotland.html

Should be like the English Roster with less Longbows and Heavy Cavalry and bills, and more Pikes.

[Mamlaz]

I would advise having Grand Duchy of Moscow, despite it being quite small in 1370, it was very important during the timeline the late era will portray.

[Point Blank]

Oops yes Scotland will be there, of course.
Otherwise things depend on the faction limit, looks like we could probably fit Moscow in.

[Point Blank]

Wow sounds good!

No Scotland though? Admittedly not a very exciting faction, full of brave heart rubbish units, with an awful skin, it looks like the Scotland football team. You half expect them to be sponsored by Tennents.

https://stainless-steel-mod.com/Scotland/Scotland.html

Should be like the English Roster with less Longbows and Heavy Cavalry and bills, and more Pikes.

The included Historical Battle of Flodden is a lot of fun and the Scotland AI does a very good job of attacking.

[Erunion Telcontar]

Currently playing a high era England game that's lasted into the mid 1400's, and have one big concern:

Papal army composition.
You see, the Papacy got HUGE.
And they filled their armies with Papal Guard, and now even more so - Swiss Guard.
Both of which have Lock Morale.

It's a bit odd fighting multiple 20 stacks that are >50% filled with Lock Morale units.
Is there anything you can do to reduce the prevalence of these units in their armies?