Factional Strengths: Hammer or Anvil

[Ptolemaios Soter]

I'm gearing up for another grand campaign, and weighing several factions to choose from. I've been searching in vain for the "right fit" with a strong mainline holding roster and also superior flanking assault troops. I have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised by how well balanced all of the factions are despite my efforts. The AOR system allows you to build a well-balanced army with any faction from anywhere on the map, but elites are appropriately reserved to the factions. Generally whoever you choose, you can either have top-tier flanking hammer troops (Mauryans, most barbarians, etc.), or top-tier mainline anvil troops (Hellenic factions, kind of Rome), and you can always supplement whatever subpar troops your faction has with AOR or mercenaries to fill the gap. Hold the enemy with medium-grade spears and obliterate the flanks with superior shock infantry/cavalry, or have a mainline with some killing potential but kind of limp support? So rather than asking what the super faction is that has everything, I'd like to ask the forums: which approach to battle do you prefer?

[Epanastatis]

Ignoring your last sentence completely, Epirus is, in my view, the super faction that has everything. Fantastic pikemen with great holding power (and more damage than hoplites), good flanking infantry in the form of Thesprotian and Apulian infantry (both similar to Roman style legionaries), great cavalry roster and elephants! Unit roster wise, my favourite faction.

In terms of play style, I enjoy playing in a hybrid hellenic/roman style. I deploy formation spears (phalanx or hoplites depending on the faction) as my backbone and anvil, but instead of a solid line I space them in a chequerboard formation (similar to the Roman quincunx). In the gaps of the rear line, I have peltasts, and on the wings I have some fast anti-cav cav (usually tarantines) and some shock anti infantry cav (lancers of any type). Once main spears are engaged and enemy are held down, I dispose of enemy cav with my anti-cav cav, and enemy missiles with my shock cav. Peltasts move to the rear of the micro fights going on (usually I'll have two or three enemy units ganging a single hoplite/phalanx) and throw all their javs into the rear of the blobs (usually router at least one unit). Once missiles are exhausted, they charge. By this point enemy cav and ranged are dead, and my cav can rear charge the enemy infantry. I do this with my shock, but I leave my tarantines to wipe out routing enemy units so I don't have to fight them again.

This approach seems to reliably net me heroic victories - I will lose anywhere from 200-800 units and will kill anywhere from 2500-4000 units depending on the quality of the army/armies I'm facing.

[Geffalrus]

Personally I'm a major proponent of the Hellenistic style: pike main line, a few skirmishers, an elephant, and then a combination of heavy and light cavalry.

That being said, I have had fun with alternate styles. Usually as a "barbarian" faction, I try to identify a few key infantry units: one set will be the "holders" while the other will be the "breakers." The holders will be a couple noble/retainer/etc high level spearmen that will anchor the part of my line that I won't focus on (usually my left). The Breakers will sit mostly on the right, and will be charged with...ahem.....charging enemy infantry and crushing it before rolling up the rest of the enemy line. As I march forward, I will identify a likely weak point, and the shuffle accordingly. High priority will be targeting the enemy general for an early death.

[IngloriousJosh]

My "do everything" faction of choice is Baktria. You have to deal with a bad starting set of royals, but unit-wise they get everything. Hoplites, Pikes, useable infantry, Cretan archers and all the cavalry you could want. Oh, cataphract elephants too. Their late game cataphracts are actually the best in the game, their late game skirmisher cav is top tier, their late game cav archers is only beat by Parthian. On top of that, they're the perfect faction to rush research on since they start with Silk and their tech tree gives them very fast level 4 libraries. Once you finally take a Mediterranean port (my favorite is to take Scythia, then Bosporus and trade with a German settlement, revealing everyone on the way) your income will skyrocket from your tariff income bonuses and you can basically make armies as quickly as your population will let you

[mercenary715]

I like the getae or odrysians for all around. Excellent assault infantry, good hoplites and a few pikes. Getae have some pretty good archers and a pretty good mix of cavalry

[Sonny WiFiHr]

Epirus is strong and have really fun start. Can't find anything lacking with them.

[Spleen999]

Arche Bosphorus have an easy start and can trade with anyone building up a rapid economy. After their reforms their army is fantastic and can expand anywhere relatively easily

[TheRazaman]

Playing with an army like the Mauryans or Suebi is my preference. The Roman/Hellenistic manner of fighting is good but quickly becomes a memorized algorithm to repeat all campaign. Horse archer armies, while imo the best in the game, quickly become boring to play because the AI -- like most people throughout history -- is incapable of fighting against them. I find that having devastating foot archers, great "assault" infantry (as opposed to "anvil" infantry), and good cavalry offers a unique challenge in every battle aka there's less of a definitive pattern to each of your fights.

For example, in Suebi campaigns the tribes to your north will often field better infantry than you early game. To try and beat them with hammer and anvil tactics doesn't work because your center just gets crushed, so you have to be more tactically flexible and do things like echelon your formation as the enemy gets close to delay a full scale engagement and then make well timed charges with your general to quickly demoralize their superior infantry line.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Moving this to: DeI Strategy Guides and Gameplay Discussions

Feel free to continue.

[boblikesoup]

I'm surprised no-one has said Macedon yet. Get a pike line with some reinforcing generals of companion cavalry.

[T2av]

+1 exactly.. my bactrian brother!

[Hardric62]

I also have a strong preference for a romano-hellenic style of fighting (sometimes too much. Arverni are amongst my favorite barbarians for their ability to emulate this tactic, even if it's not an optimal one for them), with a frontline of pikes/hoplites, sometimes with spears or hoplites flanking them, heavy infantry for filling breaches, counterstrike or a quick flanking, skirmishers for more flanking and shooting at incoming cavalry, and cavalry to attack the enemy on the back, according to their abilities.

And since Baktria is already named, I'll add the two other factions of my personal Top 3:

-Carthage. Only thing missing in their roster are horse archers and pikes. You've got good hoplites, including elite ones, to anchor the lines, heavy infantry, peltasts, heavier archers and balear slingers, a good melee and shock cavalry, and the numids form a good skirmisher cavalry (do I need to mention the elephants?). Their mercenaries form a system similar to the roman auxilia for flexibility and providing many types of good units, but with all of them accessible everywhere, and they take third class population (meaning no need to keep too uch foreigners around), nice way to bolster the recruitment of quality troops.

-Armenia. Their roster could only bloom later, but once it does, only things missing are chariots (a rarity and admittedly something I doesn't miss) and elephants (it's Orient, it's easier to get mercs elephants here). And once it does, you get more than decent substitute legionaries (able to form the tetsudo), heavily protected torakitai, including armor piercing elite ones, pikes, legionaries spearmen (actually hoplites) and elite phalanxes, heavy archers to go with the basic skirmishers, a powerful melee cavalry (Azat Knights and Armenian nobles. Yes, knights isn't adequate for the time, but dang, it's a classy nomination), cataphracts, both standards and elite, and horse archers, both normal and heavy. Who needs more?

[Frosthammer]

As for Baktria they have very good rooster, but they lack thorax spears (i wonder why?) and their cavalry has smaller number 100 vs 120.

[Ptolemaios Soter]

Resurrecting this thread because I’m nearing completion of a surprisingly epic campaign as Galatia.

I thought about how all of the Greek and successor factions relied on Galatian mercenaries (incorporated into their rosters or otherwise) to serve as assault infantry. I’ve never found cavalry very effective flankers because there are too few units to do enough damage on the charge (especially at 100) and using them to route a whole army leads to too many casualties of your core “workhorse” troops per battle to keep up momentum on the offense. So I thought it would be interesting to do a bit of a different approach, flipping the Hellenistic model on its head. I used 4 AOR or mercenary pikemen (first Ephesian and later Makedonian) per army. Those plus two heavy Galatian spears and two heavy Galatian swords rounded out my main line. My flankers were one axmen and two naked spears per side. One mercenary ranged unit (Rhodian or Cretan), one mercenary Syrian elephant (I know, they’re expensive as all hell, but the fear effect alone was worth it in every battle), and a few mixed cav (late game I used one mercenary Parthian cataphract and most battles I couldn’t really tell if I was mopping up elites or a citizen mob - the result was the same).

I just defeated a (mostly medium and levy) 7,500 force with a 19 stack and only 178 casualties. So it seems I found my perfect fit! The difference between AOR pikes and faction elite pikes seems to be A) their morale when in a tough spot and B) their ability to push the enemy effectively and generate kills on their own. But if you have a limited pike center (4 units) at deep enough ranks with strong supporting troops on either side and you don’t try to advance them too far into the enemy, you really have no need for either A or B. Most of my battles are over before the pikes become relevant because my heavy flank guards and top-tier light flanking troops have already won by the time the pikes start taking/dealing losses.

Lots of fun from a role-playing twist of history perspective, interesting battles because - unlike Hellenistic armies I felt like I was really using and microing my units, and satisfying to see the ability to earn overwhelming wins when done right.

[Garbad]

I try to avoid cav heavy strategies because the AI is so poor at preventing players from getting behind them it ruins the challenge.

[Ptolemaios Soter]

I try to avoid cav heavy strategies because the AI is so poor at preventing players from getting behind them it ruins the challenge.

For HAs, sure. But I've always felt that my cav take way too many losses when I rely on them. And if they're the ones I need to kill/route the enemy, then that means I can only fight one or two battles before needing to take a couple of turns to replenish - made worse by the fact that they're often first class population, so I need to spend an extra couple of turns moving back into my interior provinces. I don't really have that problem when using light infantry for shock troops because they have higher numbers (especially compared to 100 unit cavalry) and they usually replenish from 3rd class population - 2nd in the case of elite light troops.

[Devodians]

Resurrecting this thread because I’m nearing completion of a surprisingly epic campaign as Galatia.

I thought about how all of the Greek and successor factions relied on Galatian mercenaries (incorporated into their rosters or otherwise) to serve as assault infantry. I’ve never found cavalry very effective flankers because there are too few units to do enough damage on the charge (especially at 100) and using them to route a whole army leads to too many casualties of your core “workhorse” troops per battle to keep up momentum on the offense. So I thought it would be interesting to do a bit of a different approach, flipping the Hellenistic model on its head. I used 4 AOR or mercenary pikemen (first Ephesian and later Makedonian) per army. Those plus two heavy Galatian spears and two heavy Galatian swords rounded out my main line. My flankers were one axmen and two naked spears per side. One mercenary ranged unit (Rhodian or Cretan), one mercenary Syrian elephant (I know, they’re expensive as all hell, but the fear effect alone was worth it in every battle), and a few mixed cav (late game I used one mercenary Parthian cataphract and most battles I couldn’t really tell if I was mopping up elites or a citizen mob - the result was the same).

I just defeated a (mostly medium and levy) 7,500 force with a 19 stack and only 178 casualties. So it seems I found my perfect fit! The difference between AOR pikes and faction elite pikes seems to be A) their morale when in a tough spot and B) their ability to push the enemy effectively and generate kills on their own. But if you have a limited pike center (4 units) at deep enough ranks with strong supporting troops on either side and you don’t try to advance them too far into the enemy, you really have no need for either A or B. Most of my battles are over before the pikes become relevant because my heavy flank guards and top-tier light flanking troops have already won by the time the pikes start taking/dealing losses.

Lots of fun from a role-playing twist of history perspective, interesting battles because - unlike Hellenistic armies I felt like I was really using and microing my units, and satisfying to see the ability to earn overwhelming wins when done right.

Now you're making me want to give Galatia another go! I think that was my mistake, using Galatian infantry as part of my holding line instead of flanking units.

Just curious, how did you spend your first 10 turns? Who did you attack first, and how did you manage your Public Order problems?

[Garbad]

I've never really been able to find a use for pikemen that good spears couldn't do. Can anyone give me some examples of good pike tactics/setups?

[Ptolemaios Soter]

Now you're making me want to give Galatia another go! I think that was my mistake, using Galatian infantry as part of my holding line instead of flanking units.

Just curious, how did you spend your first 10 turns? Who did you attack first, and how did you manage your Public Order problems?

it’s been a little while, but if I recall...
Turn 1 move leader to the border with Cappadocia and recruit 2 naked spears and levy AOR swords (they’re amazing - 7 attack and defense with I think 16 armor from helmets).
Turn 2 capture cappadocia and recruit some more levies.
Turn 3-5 move into position to take Pessinous from Lydia.
Turn 6 declare war on Seleucids et al. Egypt now loves you, make military alliance. Move into Asia and recruit mercenary pikes, then capture and loot Pessinous.
Turns 7-10 start building up a second army with mainline of naked swords (due to scarcity of available pikes) and naked spear flankers (these guys are end-game quality. I have 4 per army). Move a full stack with pikes, swords, and spears toward Syria.
Turn 10 attack Seleucids and liberate Tarsos. Your southern order is now secure.

I seriously lucked out getting Side as a gift in diplomacy. For PO, I just had taxes off everywhere for the first 5-10 turns. All of my income came from winning battles, looting cities, and the patronage of Egypt (seriously, get them to like you and just ask for 10k every few turns). It felt a little gamey, but it also fit roleplaying as Galacia since they were bankrolling my war with their arch-rival.

pikes + naked spears + rhodian slinger(s) = victory with almost no casualties.

[kpagcha]

I've never really been able to find a use for pikemen that good spears couldn't do. Can anyone give me some examples of good pike tactics/setups?

There's not much mystery to them. They're supposed to be your center and they're supposed to hold the enemy. That's about it

Turn 1 move leader to the border with Cappadocia and recruit some naked AOR swords (they’re amazing - 7 attack and defense with I think 16 armor from helmets).

How do you use naked spears? What's their niche? I've always found them in an odd position. Spears are supposed to be defensive units, not deal damage, they are supposed to endure. But if they have no armor... How are you supposed to use them?

I seriously lucked out getting Side as a gift in diplomacy.

What do you mean with this?