Thoughts on Arverni Roster

[Standard Nerd]

I am currently about 80 turns into an Arverni Grand Campaign, and it has been fantastic so far! I can tell that their roster has received a lot of love from the DeI team. In particular, I really like how the population mechanics heavily encourage me to find uses for weaker, low tier units just to fill my army out. However, I have some questions about why some units are in the population class they are in. In particular, the Acubaugadoi (Veteran Freemen) are described as being from the peasant class, but they are recruited from the Pagi, or 2nd class. Also, this unit is shown having 26 armor in the experimental pack, and maybe 12 in base DeI, but they are visually identical to Bagaudoi (Levy Freemen) who have the lowest armor value. Lastly the Rigeporedoi (Gallic Noble Horse) come from the 2nd class, even though it seems like they would come from the first class.

[Livin La Vida Loca]

I think the noble horse's description says that they're client troops, right? As in, working under the nobles, ergo, not nobles, yeah? You're probably right about the veteran freeman being in a weird class though.
My only real beef with the averni roster is that naked spears don't have the scare trait anymore, even though I'm positive they used to.

[Standard Nerd]

Yeah I do miss that on the Gaesates too. It encouraged me to hold on to a lot of the armies I confederated. BTW how easy is it to mod the names of political parties. I find it mildly inconvenient that confederated generals join the gabali tribe as opposed to the council of chieftains.

[bibs]

Gaesates are absolute beasts already. I fought & battle where I had 2 stacks of cheap units vs 8 Gaesates + their auxiliaries . I outnumbered them 3 to 1 and still I lost decisively. That's probably because the cheap clubmen I had (batoroi) are so underwhelming.

Yeah I do miss that on the Gaesates too. It encouraged me to hold on to a lot of the armies I confederated. BTW how easy is it to mod the names of political parties. I find it mildly inconvenient that confederated generals join the gabali tribe as opposed to the council of chieftains.

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[Olmsted]

The Arverni really need slingers to be at all interesting to me.

[Standard Nerd]

The Arverni really need slingers to be at all interesting to me.

They have slingers now.

[bibs]

Yeah I do miss that on the Gaesates too. It encouraged me to hold on to a lot of the armies I confederated. BTW how easy is it to mod the names of political parties. I find it mildly inconvenient that confederated generals join the gabali tribe as opposed to the council of chieftains.

Are you sure they don't still have the scare trait? I've fought against them and my boys were "frightened by enemy unit" with no other potentially scary units around.

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[Standard Nerd]

Are you sure they don't still have the scare trait? I've fought against them and my boys were "frightened by enemy unit" with no other potentially scary units around.

Are you sure you were fighting against the Arverni? They’re version of the Gaesetae is the “Gaisetoi” and it is a spear unit. The previous version was a sword unit with the scare trait. All the other Gallic tribes still have that version.

Acubaugadoi (Veteran Freemen) are described as being from the peasant class, but they are recruited from the Pagi, or 2nd class. Also, this unit is shown having 26 armor in the experimental pack, and maybe 12 in base DeI, but they are visually identical to Bagaudoi (Levy Freemen) who have the lowest armor value.

What are the DeI teams thoughts on this? Could it be a bug?

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

What are the DeI teams thoughts on this? Could it be a bug?

Haven't checked Rosters for a while, so I'll take a rain-check for that. As for the experimental pack, KAM will be able to give you more info.

[KAM 2150]

Last time I remember we have added some armour on those Veteran Freemen to show looted equipment, although they are still light/medium infantry at best.

[hlidskjalf]

I'm playing now as the Arverni and I think my principal complaints would be mostly oriented toward some of the flavor text, which is all bizarre, I think too much creative license, but I'm not sure how much of that is carry-over from the base game. One of the units in their flavor text, it is written, that they imbibed chemicals before going into battle, to be impervious to pain, I think the Gaesatae. Did Polybius ever mention anything like that? I'm almost certain he did not. Some other strange qualities of the roster: clubmen? Ax-men? Have there been many ax-heads found at La Tene warrior burials? Any mention of clubs used in pitched battle? They're both strange additions and it unfortunately takes me out of the immersion, as I get the impression that the roster and Arverni faction is half fantasy half reality. Lastly, I found that the "professional" Celtic unit, the Kingetoi, become unavailable at the highest level mustering building. Only Elites are available at that level, but I don't understand the logic, though maybe it's an oversight. As the Romans at their highest barracks, can you only recruit Triarii or Pedites Extraordinarii?

Otherwise I love everything, but the Celtic unit voices are so abrasive, I have to play with the game muted, and why does every single Celtic unit have a mustache, it's a ridiculous caricature, though I suppose nothing can be done with that decision by CA

One last thought, one of the Gallic spear units has a name which looks very Breton, An-Aremerto; is there a native Breton speaker or an enthusiast working on DeI? Fascinating stuff, I love that country

[Geffalrus]

Lots of units in Rome 2 mods owe their origins to work done for the Rome 1 mods (Rome Total Realism, Roma Surrectum, Europa Barbarorum, etc). Here is the Arverni unit list for Europa Barbarorum, you can find the reference to the drugged up Gaesatae there: https://www.europabarbarorum.com/EB1...rni_units.html

I'm not a Gallic/Celtic history expert, so I won't speak to the authenticity of the unit. I've always found them fun to use. Obligatory note that Polybius is by no means the perfect historian, nor the only written source. He's useful, but not the Bible, so to speak.

I believe clubs and axes are attested in the historical record. They make sense as weapons used by warriors not able to afford swords. Swords require a lot more metal and expertise to produce, and so would have been much more expensive to procure, especially when they were primarily a side-arm or secondary weapon (albeit a very useful one). Your most important weapon(s) would have been your spear or javelins as those would be the first things used in battle, and both gave you a reach advantage over a "swordsman" - something you definitely wanted to have in a fight.

All rosters are part fantasy, part reality, simply due to the fact that the historical record is hugely imperfect. This is why different mods can have wildly different units. Rome has the best record, and their units are still mostly guess-work. Then again, some mods (Radious) are more fantasy than others.

[hlidskjalf]

I think most people would agree wild conjecture (re: clubmen) is typically out of place in a historical setting, and about Europa Barbarorum, the EBII team has made it very clear that a lot of the EB roster is fantastical, and shouldn't be used as a basis, but the EBII roster should be fine

I'm not sure I understand the logic of Polybius not having mentioned axe-men or chemical-imbibing warriors as an argument for the likelihood of axe-men or chemical-imbibing warriors; I brought him up because he's as far as I know the most contemporary reference to the "naked" spearmen we call the Gaesatae in our games, and if the original source never mentioned anything about imbibing chemicals it just seems like something shoehorned in from the idea of mushroom-eating pagan berserkers for no reason other than fantasy flavor

[FlashHeart07]

Though I know you cannot directly compare germanic with the gallic warrior culture, it is acknowledged that the germanic warriors used clubs and wooden spears with hardened tips as well as axes.
With that in mind. Would it seem so unrealistic that the gallic which had interactions with the germanic tribes did not at all use clubs or axes?

EDIT: A quick search results in several sites stating the use of axes within the La Tene culture.

[hlidskjalf]

Would it seem so unrealistic that the gallic which had interactions with the germanic tribes did not at all use clubs or axes?

This is not my point. If it's not attested to historically then it's baseless conjecture. If that doesn't concern any of you then that's fine but I was under the impression this DeI mod is modeled on EBII, and EBII is pretty strict about what they do with their roster. I'm curious about the inspiration for the Gallic club/ax units, and if the inspiration for them is just conjecture or "well there were probably some gauls at some point with clubs probably" then my question is answered and I'll move on

[Standard Nerd]

Last time I remember we have added some armour on those Veteran Freemen to show looted equipment, although they are still light/medium infantry at best.

I do kinda remember that change! I think it happened after Garbad complain about the Arverni not having access to medium spear units. I guess what I’m trying to report is that even thought the Acubagadoi have medium armor (which I like), the units visual on the battle field are identical to the unarmored levy spearmen.

And I apologize for being redundant about it but is this unit intended to come from the 2nd population class? I ask because the Ambactoi are unlocked at the same barracks tier, come from the 2nd population class as well, and perform much better than the Acubaugadoi. The only advantage the Acubaugadoi have is that they are faster in the EBP.

[Geffalrus]

I'll try again. If Polybius doesn't mention it, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. That's all I was trying to communicate. I did not create the units, nor am I an expert on Gallic armies - hopefully the experts on this team will chime in.

My understanding of the Gaesatae in DeI is that originally they were more in line with the Celtic drug berserkers of EB1, but after the latest re-work, they are more realistic.......in other words, their design has reasonable stats (combat, scare, etc) and NOT the crazy combat stats of EB1 Gaesatae. They left in the old Gaesatae as "easter egg" units in the other Gallic factions that you can fight and maybe use if you confederate with them. That's my understanding, at least. Again, I'd let the actual expert on the team have the final word.

I'd be careful with dismissing things as "just conjecture" since - again - we have painfully few sources for what ancient armies "really" looked like. Most rosters are conjecture.........the differences is how well sourced that conjecture is. So hopefully that sourcing will be shared soon.

[bibs]

I'm playing now as the Arverni and I think my principal complaints would be mostly oriented toward some of the flavor text, which is all bizarre, I think too much creative license, but I'm not sure how much of that is carry-over from the base game. One of the units in their flavor text, it is written, that they imbibed chemicals before going into battle, to be impervious to pain, I think the Gaesatae.

I always thought the "chemicals" they were imbibing was just some kind of brew which is plausible. On the other hand, I'm sure I read somewhere that the Nervii were strongly against alcohol, so if this is true the Nervii Gaesatae should not have the same tooltip, but there are more important things to fix than the tooltips. For example the wardogs who get dumpstered by archers.

[Frosthammer]

I always thought the "chemicals" they were imbibing was just some kind of brew which is plausible. On the other hand, I'm sure I read somewhere that the Nervii were strongly against alcohol, so if this is true the Nervii Gaesatae should not have the same tooltip, but there are more important things to fix than the tooltips. For example the wardogs who get dumpstered by archers.

Alcohol is not only possible combat stim. It could be some mushrooms or herbs.

[Geffalrus]

Alcohol is not only possible combat stim. It could be some mushrooms or herbs.

Hehe, herbs. I, for one, want to see a Marijuana berserker unit as AOR along the East side of the map. The Marijuana berserker would be slow, have sky high morale, disciplined, and have extremely poor combat stats.