Re: [Submod] Fall of the Eagles + Europa Perdita revised

[Odinarius]

Played this last night for 120 turns or so as Tankhudids and it was pretty fun!

Archers are much better now, they decimate the unarmored troops but have major issues with armored enemies.

Also, plagues are far less frequent at the beginning of the game, but are still omnipresent later on (last 5 cities and 10 armies that I defeated were plagued). I propose to give AI 3 points of sanitation. I believe that around that number the plagues will still appear, but won't be impossible to cure for the AI as it is now.

There are a couple of faction specific issues I had (too much money as a horde, spearmans not balanced - same cost for T1 and T2, with T2 being much better).

Still, great experience so far, looking forward to trying some other faction in the future!

[Cgma]

Played this last night for 120 turns or so as Tankhudids and it was pretty fun!

Nice to know you like it .

I propose to give AI 3 points of sanitation. I believe that around that number the plagues will still appear, but won't be impossible to cure for the AI as it is now.

I was thinking rather to add specific perk for selected factions like ERE to increase sanitation selectively, barbarians at major were dirty dogs in fact . However plagues at those times were pretty common, i'm more convinced just to lower effect of plagues to limit casualties due to them.

There are a couple of faction specific issues I had (too much money as a horde, spearmen not balanced - same cost for T1 and T2, with T2 being much better).

That is something that should be verified at some point, but remember that your cost of upkeep and recruitment are managed with few additional factors, so some bonuses can create situation when units of different tiers can cost the same money or very near. Hordes and migrators are meant to be easier (at least at the start later things don't look that easy) since that was their time in history. Anyway balancing all factions to be equally challenging is just impossible, as soon as you weaken/strenghten one the other is connected and will fail to easy or take advantage of the tweak. My purpose was to balance game to keep political situation and borders as stable as it was possible and correct due to history so - for example - WRE managed by AI keeps integrated for about 407 AD then should start to quickly collapse and being overrun by possible near to history factions - i just try to avoid situation that is standard in vanilla game, when half of empire is annexed by Caledonians or Irish.

Still, great experience so far, looking forward to trying some other faction in the future!

Just remember that it is still my private view for what i want to see in the game, there is no possibility i can satisfy everyone, but again - nice to know you like it .

[Jin-]

Giving this a go.

If someone invents a human cloning machine be sure to clone FotE team so they can continue here aswell

[skillfultree]

Does this mod, or any of your other FOTE mods, fix White Huns not being able to settle? Every time I tried I could't build new armies, could only recruit vanilla units and couldn't build buildings.

[Cgma]

As far as i know there are no mods repairing this issue.

[Basileia ton Rhomaion]

Is there a plan for 12tpy version of this? This submod has been a great addition but I'd love to take it slow and play 12tpy without messing up event times.

[Cgma]

There was a discussion about it, 12TPY raises lots of problems as you need to rearrange incomes which is not that easy and all 12TPY mods are missing this aspect thus killing game. Maybe, in some unspecified future i will try to do 8TPY, 12 TPY is in my opinion definitely pointless, all 12TPY mods i have tried made game just finished faster.

[Odinarius]

On year 438, I am experiencing a C++ crash on ERE turn. I tried changing some of my decisions before end turn, but it always crashes. I have no idea if it is connected to this mod, it probably isn't, but I'm just wondering if anyone has similar issues.

[Cgma]

On year 438, I am experiencing a C++ crash on ERE turn. I tried changing some of my decisions before end turn, but it always crashes. I have no idea if it is connected to this mod, it probably isn't, but I'm just wondering if anyone has similar issues.

I can't say a word unless you specify all mods you use. But simply using anything that is not tested as compatible might cause CTD. Tested (or recommended) mods are gathered in my collection:
https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=1575489072

Anything else you use it is on your own risk as i can't test everything that is available in Workshop or not even think to do it. Mod is meant to be played pure as much as possible.
Anyway the best idea is always read comments under any mod you plan to add - if it does any problems to users that indicates "NO" surely.

[mejobo]

Thanks so much for working on this! FOTE being incomplete and lacking up-to-date polish on its mechanics was turning me off even though I desperately wanted to try a (the most?) historical Attila mod.

But, it's still a work in progress.

It seems that some units are not balanced with the mod in the campaign. First one I noticed was a Mercenary Celtic Band that still had an attack value of 40.

Besides that, missiles were feeling a bit useless, and at first I thought it was the lowered damage... but i'm not so sure now. After turning on projectile trails it was apparent that troops were shooting/throwing significantly over/behind their target. Even with close range flanking shots and an unobstructed view. Nothing like I've seen in any other version of TWA. Do the missile/'artillery' have accuracy modifiers in this mod? If so, I'd revert closer to the base game. Lowered damage makes missiles ineffective enough that they don't really shape what a targeted enemy does... which seems unrealistic given sources having missile fire able to 'drive back' enemy actions and act as a way of controlling the battlefield and enemy movement in this era. Weirdly, precursors seem more effective, and it seems that that is in part because they are not being so poorly aimed. Given that you've slightly increased missile damage from FOTE's base version, I would imagine you'd want missile accuracy to feel right, too.

Also possible it was some conflict or other error unique to my build, though! Only had two other non-aesthetic mods on, "More Personal Space" (barely spaces out troops more so that there are less clipping issues, improvers performance, but shield walls still look tight) and "animated fight pack" which is basically one of those "more diverse matched fights" but keeps the percentage of matched animations to generic attacks similar to vanilla.

Finally, have you looked at trying to debuff generals/perhaps heavy infantry endurance more broadly than you already have? Playing as WRE, tiny settlement battles frequently become a 35 minute scrum where the enemy general unit (or in some cases, just some heavier infantry!) fights uphill against a testudo all battle. I can understand that being a very slow way to get casualties on either side, but when the rest of the fight resolves itself and all that's left is that one enemy unit it often seems that even with flanking charges, missile file, and morale debuffs for army casualties and what have you, the fight goes on. If I'm lucky I saved some precursors and can back off and maybe get some late hits to get the "Recent Casualties" debuff and that can end it, but sometimes it really does just drag on, which is unrealistic for a surrounded and unit in a clearly failed offensive.

On the flip side, it is unfortunately probably pretty realistic that when you're outnumbered enough, it never reaches that point, and instead each of your units gets scrummed on favorable terrain for the duration. Unfortunately with the combat animation the immersion is slightly broken, as fights lasting so long tend to result in individual soldiers drifting through the enemy formation... and then both sides get those 'rear attack" morale hits! It's an interesting problem. Closest I've seen a mod to handling this is "More Realistic: Attila Warfare" which has fairly low lethality front to front fights but fatigue effects and morale tend to result in lulls where sides break up and have a chance to reform formation (and a bit higher lethality/attack rate during the denser parts of the fight).

I do think both of these could be helped by making flanking charges, or perhaps even weapons in general a little more AP ability so that in the long run troops start dropping as fatigue kicks in and the fight drags on. Giving missiles back a little more of their utility against stuck masses of troops would definitely also help.

[Cgma]

It seems that some units are not balanced with the mod in the campaign. First one I noticed was a Mercenary Celtic Band that still had an attack value of 40.

They are done i think, check answer and tips below .

Besides that, missiles were feeling a bit useless, and at first I thought it was the lowered damage...

They are balanced as they should be i believe - strong vs. light troops, weak vs. heavy armored, thus you still can use heavy shot vs. medium/heavy units effectively.

Also possible it was some conflict or other error unique to my build, though! Only had two other non-aesthetic mods on, "More Personal Space" (barely spaces out troops more so that there are less clipping issues, improvers performance, but shield walls still look tight) and "animated fight pack" which is basically one of those "more diverse matched fights" but keeps the percentage of matched animations to generic attacks similar to vanilla.

I can't nor intend to be sure they conflict or not, you use them on your own risk. I suppose some stats may be overriden with them.
Anyway if you want to submit any units unbalances i need pure mod's installation to check stats, i don't know actually you say about FotE Revised or "aesthetic" mod.

have you looked at trying to debuff generals/perhaps heavy infantry endurance more broadly than you already have? Playing as WRE, tiny settlement battles frequently become a 35 minute scrum where the enemy general unit (or in some cases, just some heavier infantry!) fights uphill against a testudo all battle.

Are you awared that infantry barbarian chieftain unit is tier 3 while roman is only 1 so limitanei units are? That makes difference and it is intended, however i slightly revised original stats of leader's units to make them more comparable.

I do think both of these could be helped by making flanking charges, or perhaps even weapons in general a little more AP ability so that in the long run troops start dropping as fatigue kicks in and the fight drags on. Giving missiles back a little more of their utility against stuck masses of troops would definitely also help.

in my opinion all works well, closely to my taste, nothing really needs to be changed as FotE team balanced it pretty well. Battle styles are really personal, some people like longer, others fast, some leathal, some panics. FotE realizes their own taste to it and it fulfills my taste as well. I don't remember battles longer than 15-20 mins, absolutely acceptable to me.

As i said before - i can't satisfy everyone, that is mod done by my taste and what i felt it should look like, actually i believe it is completed, some minor updates are still in progress, but majority is done.

[mejobo]

I'm definitely going to be trying a clean install. It seems to me that there must be some issue with my other mods affecting the mercenary stats, and the speed of your battles suggests to me there's an issue there too. 15 - 20 minutes is acceptable! And even when my battles were getting closer to 40 I was mostly satisfied... it was frustrating more from a realism standpoint (and a little from enjoyment) that half that time was spend grinding away at the last enemy bodyguard unit (which, again, is surrounded, completely abandoned by its army, taking missile fire from above, etc...) As it stands, this mod (+whatever issues my other mods have introduced ) feels very close to the style I want for my big 'realism campaign' (although I'm okay playing with different 'historically plausible' styles, one of the fun things about mods!). It's just that the issues I've raised are the things that pull me out of that experience. Luckily, it does seem like those might be the other mods messing things up, and I'll be checking soon!

They are balanced as they should be i believe - strong vs. light troops, weak vs. heavy armored, thus you still can use heavy shot vs. medium/heavy units effectively.

I think that indicates there is indeed something wrong with my install - tests suggest that even shooting behind shields, into 'moshpits', from above, with heavy shot, for the entire duration of the battle results in single digit casualties from arrows. As noted I don't think this is about damage model - I can see that the accuracy is far reduced, for some reason particularly with a lot of fairly extreme overshooting. I figure this is probably an issue with my set up, so I will be trying a clean install tonight. This is not something you see when you have projectile tracers on?

Are you aware that infantry barbarian chieftain unit is tier 3 while roman is only 1 so limitanei units are? That makes difference and it is intended, however i slightly revised original stats of leader's units to make them more comparable.

I'm aware of that, but I'm not having a problem winning these battles, it's that it takes 30+ minutes to do so, with the majority of that time devoted to routing that one unit. Tier 3 or not, I don't think that's a realistic way for the battle to end, and it certainly gets a bit boring! I could see this being a result of combat animation rate and/or unit spacing (maybe more spacing = slower melee combat pace by enough to be an issue). I will also grant that maybe I don't quite have the 'feel' of how to game the morale system in this mod yet - maybe I could route them much more quickly once isolated if I time my flanking charges just right, or something. Do you have any suggestions for taking care of that final unit? My usual strategy for settlement defense is plug some of the ramps with spears in testudo or shield wall (depending on enemy's missiles or lack thereof), flank with remaining units once the enemy is engaged. Archers usually are on the walls shooting down into the enemy mass, usually at a slight flank, although once the enemy is engaged I sometimes get 'creative' and move for more close range direct flanking shots with missiles. Usually within 10 minutes I've routed all but the enemy's commander unit, and then applying my whole army (which is usually essentially in tact) to flanking that unit and trying to maximize missile damage as well. I've had a little more success when I can cycle out my own units (especially if I can get a close-range precursor throw - those seem to not have the accuracy issues of skirmishers...) but even so the shortest (settlement) battle I've had is 31 minutes.

Okay after trying with a clean install - playing with *only* EP, FOTE (parts 1-4), EP+FOTE revised, your War Wariness submod - and had a couple bugs so far:

1) In Custom Battle, I experience a CTD when I try to select East or West Rome for the AI faction. I can choose either for my own faction. I haven't encountered this issue for any other factions.

2) I remain confident that there are issues with at least some Mercenary Stats. The two that have stood out to me are Mercenary Celtic Band and Mercenary Celtic Axe Band, which about double the melee attack and damage and charge bonus of equivalent non-mercenary units.

3) I'm not sure if its intended that some of the WRE garrison units start at low strength (I think ~33%) and others start at full strength.

Other comments:

- Most of my issues with the combat seem to be resolved. Personal Space mod* was probably reducing missile effectiveness a little too much (although it still seems to me that there's more overshooting/inaccuracy than in base game/most mods? This could be a result of flatter shooting trajectory) and whatever combat animation mod I was using was slowing down the melee pace a little too, it seems. That said, I still haven't had a battle as short as 15-20 minutes! I noticed that in one small battle even when a single unit remained on either side, neither unit had a morale subtraction for army casualties... are army casualties no longer considered?

-*Too bad about the Personal Space mod! On most mods it didn't seem to have as much of an effect and just reduced clipping and increased FPS.

[Cgma]

In Custom Battle, I experience a CTD when I try to select East or West Rome for the AI faction. I can choose either for my own faction. I haven't encountered this issue for any other factions.

In the list of mods you missed FotE patch 053 and my additional hotfix which are necessary and marked as "needed" during instalation process. That might be a reason you get CTDs. You have to add them to the list/use them without any questions (i suppose you also use MAGA for War Weariness to work). Anyway i checked WRE/ERE custom battles - they work properly, so you have to look for the cause - most probably you missed mentioned patches.

I remain confident that there are issues with at least some Mercenary Stats. The two that have stood out to me are Mercenary Celtic Band and Mercenary Celtic Axe Band, which about double the melee attack and damage and charge bonus of equivalent non-mercenary units.

I can't remember why i left them, but that might be intentional as celtic units are pretty weak; don't look at mercenary counterparts, they may have identical names but not being identical. FotE does a lot of discrepancies about this, so probably they are not the same, if i corrected stats i looked at their tier first, it is possible mercenaries are lower tier.

I'm not sure if its intended that some of the WRE garrison units start at low strength (I think ~33%) and others start at full strength.

All garrisons always start injured if they are added in mods. So original vanilla units start full health while new not. In vanilla all roman garrisons were about 33% health. There is another topic i asked this question and aswered myself .

This could be a result of flatter shooting trajectory) and whatever combat animation mod I was using was slowing down the melee pace a little too, it seems. That said, I still haven't had a battle as short as 15-20 minutes!

That's pretty subjective, i have no idea what tactics you use, what units, battles can last hours if you try to move and position units tactically, there are many field factors which can provide you fight longer.

I noticed that in one small battle even when a single unit remained on either side, neither unit had a morale subtraction for army casualties... are army casualties no longer considered?

No, morale works as always, some units panic faster, some stay longer (especially higher tiers and german), some, like berserker units fight to the last one.

[mejobo]

Ah, I was just listing mods from memory, I did have the hotfix and 053 patch. I'll have to poke around some more and see if there's something messed up about the load order causing that CTD, but it's really not a big deal for me as I mostly play campaign anyway. And indeed I also had MAGA on.

Played a bit more and have had much faster battles, now, particularly in the campaign. I think my previous test was tainted somewhat by doing custom battles, where unit selection tends to be a bit 'off.' Campaign is feeling perfect though! Even hired some of those Mercs and can confirm they are not broken although I'm not sure why when I compare them to the slightly more expensive but lower stat Mercenary Nordic Brigade. Great work from you and the FOTE team!

I'm still curious if trajectory/accuracy has been modded by FOTE or the Revised version? It just feels different. I'm used to being able to line up javelin throwers or archers for close-range 'direct shots' on an enemy flank, while if archers (in particular) are behind the line they end to arc over my own troops. In this mod they feel like they default to arcing more which reduces friendly fire slightly and maybe makes them more effective at their maximum listed ranges, but they seem to have trouble shooting at the target directly in front of them when set up for close range shots. This could be illusory though, it might be that the slightly slower kill rate has me noticing missiles more. Or could have to do with velocity, or how the game animates non-killing missiles, or or or... guess I just need to learn how TW modding works

[Cgma]

I'm still curious if trajectory/accuracy has been modded by FOTE or the Revised version?

To be honest i didn't notice any weird behavior about missile units or missile skills, however you actually talk about factor called "calibration", accuracy has nothing to do with it as it is only virtual parameter to calculate damages. Most units don't use accuracy at all, i don't know any mod that risks increasing that more than 5% (in EP+FotE Revised i use that for better or elite units, they can have like 5-15% accuracy, still it has nothing to do with trajectories or animations). Calibration and trajectories were enhanced somehow in FotE but you have to ask FotE team what they did as i have no bloody idea about how it works or what it does .

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

Hey I just finished up a reread of Eagle in the Snow and I was inspired to maybe reinstall Attila/FoTE, but I wanted to ask a couple questions first --

1) Have the unit sizes been fixed? I recall all the starting units being way too small, while recruitable units are normal size if you play on ultra.

2) Has the cavalry being unable to withdraw from combat been fixed at all? I recall this making the game essentially unplayable, especially compared to the perfection of DeI's cavalry.

[Cgma]

1) Have the unit sizes been fixed? I recall all the starting units being way too small, while recruitable units are normal size if you play on ultra.

I never tried at ultra (is this kinda mod for that?). As i know with normal units' size all are ok. probably FotE team fixed that as i didn't touch it.

2) Has the cavalry being unable to withdraw from combat been fixed at all? I recall this making the game essentially unplayable, especially compared to the perfection of DeI's cavalry.

You can charge and withdraw to recharge normally (with some losses inevitably). That is also not touched by my mod as it works properly.

As long as you don't plan to ruin installation with outsource mods all should be fine.

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

I've never played any TW game with normal unit sizes. 80 man units and such make it all feel so petty and pointless!

Sounds good though, i'll reinstall and give it a try. Thanks for the mod.

[Ahiga]

Cgma, since you're doing a great job if you are interested I will upload the Celts/Norse as I last had them done (All visuals, but not all code) for you to do as you will with it.

I think it's fair for me to say that I don't know when I will be able to return to FOTE and while I do wish to eventually I am not sure if I will be able to or if mod-fatigue/RL will interfere and I have a lot on my plate ahead of that with DEI's 3CC and ROTR, so it would make more sense for me to upload it so that you/someone else can make good use of them than they just sit around on my hard-drive collecting dust.

Just let me know if you or someone else would like to do so. I'll also pass along a spreadsheet which has the 'code name' (in db names) to 'unit name' (ingame name) references and other things.

That goes for any other mod teams too. Just PM me and I'll upload what I had done for the norse/celts. Usual business of credit the FOTE team in full and credit our credits (just copy them over for those not on our team) and you can use it no questions asked.

This is not me throwing in the towel entirely right now, just being realistic about it. I should have done so earlier and mea culpa that I didn't, I just have a bad habit of working up a frenzy of modding then stopping and feeling guilty for stopping so I withdrawal from it even more.

Keep up the great work Cgma.

[Nekro_TWH]

I was looking for any update or info about FOTE and i found this thread! Thank you for investing in it i will try it out lately! I hope some other modder from the team will help you and make it even better!