American gun laws

[95thrifleman]

So we have yet another mass shooting in the land of the free: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/27/u...ing/index.html


British gun control laws are often used to suggest we are somehow not free, lets have a look at what "freedom" means shall we? Now I'll be nice and just look at the year so far.
There have been 31 School shooting incidents in America this year alone, SCHOOL shootings. This has led to 40 dead and 77 wounded and the year still has 4 months to go!

Not to mention the various non-school shootings over the years such as vegas, the Orlando nightclub shooting and luby's shooting.

We had ONE school shooting and put in place laws to prevent any repeat and I am genuinely amazed that Americans seem so content to sacrifice their children for some amendment.

So here is the question, why do Americans place so little value on the life of children and so much on the 2nd amendment?

[mongrel]

Some will (ironically) blame video games. if the Constitution was that sacred, how come Trump is allowed to carry on like Julius Caesar during his last few months?

[PointOfViewGun]

Keep in mind the USA works hard to keep its gun registry non-searchable data system, not a database. By law, yes, by law, ATF's list of registeries can not be searched or sorted. That's the level of basic common sense one side of the gun debate adheres to. So, it's natural for them to blame computer games.

[Derpy Hooves]

So we have yet another mass shooting in the land of the free: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/27/u...ing/index.html


British gun control laws are often used to suggest we are somehow not free, lets have a look at what "freedom" means shall we? Now I'll be nice and just look at the year so far.
There have been 31 School shooting incidents in America this year alone, SCHOOL shootings. This has led to 40 dead and 77 wounded and the year still has 4 months to go!

Not to mention the various non-school shootings over the years such as vegas, the Orlando nightclub shooting and luby's shooting.

We had ONE school shooting and put in place laws to prevent any repeat and I am genuinely amazed that Americans seem so content to sacrifice their children for some amendment.

So here is the question, why do Americans place so little value on the life of children and so much on the 2nd amendment?

thats some retarded logic
Less shootings or more shootings has nothing to do with freedom. Safety =! Freedom
UK is certainly less free than the US. Just look at how you guys view free speech
And to answer your question, our right to defend ourselves from would be attackers or tyrannical governments is more important

[PointOfViewGun]

thats some retarded logic
Less shootings or more shootings has nothing to do with freedom. Safety =! Freedom
UK is certainly less free than the US. Just look at how you guys view free speech
And to answer your question, our right to defend ourselves from would be attackers or tyrannical governments is more important

That's some retarded logic. Your right to defend yourself doesn't mean you can not have sensible regulations or care about life of children.

[95thrifleman]

thats some retarded logic
Less shootings or more shootings has nothing to do with freedom. Safety =! Freedom
UK is certainly less free than the US. Just look at how you guys view free speech
And to answer your question, our right to defend ourselves from would be attackers or tyrannical governments is more important

Really? All these mass shootings that the right to bear arms has enabled but not stopped. It's pretty clear that having guns makes you LESS safe.

We banned guns, no more school or mass shootings in our history.

The logic falls on the side of gun control making people safer not the other way around.

I know the NRA loves this "good guy with a gun" myth but the facts are very different. For every "good guy with a gun" justifiable shooting there are 34 "bad guys with a gun" killings.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.2dc0dbdfac90

Having guns does not make America free or safe, it enslaves the nation in a cycle of murder.

[mongrel]

thats some retarded logic
Less shootings or more shootings has nothing to do with freedom. Safety =! Freedom
UK is certainly less free than the US. Just look at how you guys view free speech
And to answer your question, our right to defend ourselves from would be attackers or tyrannical governments is more important

People who beat others at NFL games are neither attackers nor a tyrannical government. In this case, as is often the case, the so-called right was granted to a complete loser.

[2-D Ron]

So we have yet another mass shooting in the land of the free: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/27/u...ing/index.html


British gun control laws are often used to suggest we are somehow not free, lets have a look at what "freedom" means shall we? Now I'll be nice and just look at the year so far.
There have been 31 School shooting incidents in America this year alone, SCHOOL shootings. This has led to 40 dead and 77 wounded and the year still has 4 months to go!

Not to mention the various non-school shootings over the years such as vegas, the Orlando nightclub shooting and luby's shooting.

We had ONE school shooting and put in place laws to prevent any repeat and I am genuinely amazed that Americans seem so content to sacrifice their children for some amendment.

So here is the question, why do Americans place so little value on the life of children and so much on the 2nd amendment?

Well from what I've deducted of their response, to stop the Government from going full Tyrant on People.
Which to me is a Head Scratcher, because on one Hand you have a man who has 40 guns, your OMGWhizzboyOMG type lunatic Vs the Full might of the American Military, drones, Navy Seals, Tanks, Fighters.
I think the days of overthrowing a tyrant through Strength of Arms are well and truly over.

So with that argument done and dusted, there is the other argument that, "How do you deal with Knife Crime over in the UK", the United States has more knife crime than we do.
I say to those concerned, "Get Self-Defence Courses!", allot of knife crime is societal issues and poverty driven along with Mental Health. Deal with them and you deal with most the problem.

Then there is the argument that.. "You give up your guns and the criminals wont give up theirs, you'll be defenceless".
This never happened in Australia when they enacted a 'Gun Buy Back Scheme' the other guns fell into disrepair and now the only gun you can get is on the Black Market for tens of thousands of pounds, if you have that much money you don't need to rob a bank, or as Jim Jefferies would say "Your a good little saver, keep goin'!".

And the Final point is, a rogue Supreme Court has misinterpreted the 2nd Amendment to be a Civilian's Right to a gun when it's about a persons Right to join the military or join a militia which would be the Police, National Guard today, .

[95thrifleman]

What makes me laugh is no US militia, equipped with store-bought guns would stand for more than 30 minutes against the National guard, let alone the US Army.

All the excuses to justify the 2nd amendment are just crap to justify the gun industry in America.

[Infidel144]

And the Final point is, a rogue Supreme Court has misinterpreted the 2nd Amendment to be a Civilian's Right to a gun when it's about a persons Right to join the military or join a militia which would be the Police, National Guard today, .

Would it? Lets see what the law says:

10 U.S. Code § 246 - Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.


(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and


(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246

The law does not say anything about the militia being (only) the Police and National Guard.

Molon Labe

[sumskilz]

What makes me laugh is no US militia, equipped with store-bought guns would stand for more than 30 minutes against the National guard, let alone the US Army.

I don't think that's a realistic way to think of it. I imagine it would be much easier to convince the National Guard to round up unarmed citizens who haven't really done anything wrong than it would be to get the National Guard to fire on armed citizens who haven't done anything wrong. In the latter case, I can imagine it may be more likely that some of the National Guard would refuse or even switch sides.

[95thrifleman]

Would it? Lets see what the law says:

10 U.S. Code § 246 - Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.


(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and


(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246

The law does not say anything about the militia being (only) the Police and National Guard.

Molon Labe

So what is that second class of "militia"? How are they trained, equipped and organised?

This is the issue in many ways, gun apologists cling the the militia excuse saying it's to protect them from tyranny when that is just an absurd idea.

In any uprising between the people an the state you'll be relying on (as we saw in the US Civil war) regular US army officers and men, siding with the people who recruit and train soldiers to fight against the government's forces and not some home grown militia carrying AR15's. hunting rifles and magnums.

Interesting fact, the government won that one.

[95thrifleman]

I don't think that's a realistic way to think of it. I imagine it would be much easier to convince the National Guard to round up unarmed citizens who haven't really done anything wrong than it would be to get the National Guard to fire on armed citizens who haven't done anything wrong. In the latter case, I can imagine it may be more likely that some of the National Guard would refuse or even switch sides.

I wouldn't be so sure of that, I refer you to 1970

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

I somehow doubt a "good guy with a gun" would of been able to face off and stop those guardsmen either.

I see I misread your post somewhat. This whole, "we have to protect our people in case the nasty government becomes a dictatorship" is an oft used an silly trope.

The worst dictatorships where pt in place BY the people and SUPPORTED by the people.

[Prodromos]

why do Americans place so little value on the life of children and so much on the 2nd amendment?

Seems like the start to a decent and productive discussion.

[Infidel144]

So what is that second class of "militia"? How are they trained, equipped and organised?

The second class of militia is defined in (b)(2)
which is quoted.

This is the issue in many ways, gun apologists cling the the militia excuse saying it's to protect them from tyranny when that is just an absurd idea.

In any uprising between the people an the state you'll be relying on (as we saw in the US Civil war) regular US army officers and men, siding with the people who recruit and train soldiers to fight against the government's forces and not some home grown militia carrying AR15's. hunting rifles and magnums.

Interesting fact, the government won that one.

None of this has anything to do with what I wrote.

Hoplophobes are more than welcome to Molon Labe.

[Cope]

I don't think that's a realistic way to think of it. I imagine it would be much easier to convince the National Guard to round up unarmed citizens who haven't really done anything wrong than it would be to get the National Guard to fire on armed citizens who haven't done anything wrong. In the latter case, I can imagine it may be more likely that some of the National Guard would refuse or even switch sides.

No one can really predict the nature of a civil conflict. Whether an armed citizenry would be beneficial would be entirely contingent on the circumstances. Considering that internal conflicts and instabilities are often exploited by radical factions and foreign interests, imagining that a contemporary civilian uprising would follow the pattern of the Revolutionary War is at best optimistic. One can simply juxtapose the War of Independence with the October Revolution to see how unpredictable the outcomes of such conflicts can be.

[Cope]

I wouldn't be so sure of that, I refer you to 1970

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

I somehow doubt a "good guy with a gun" would of been able to face off and stop those guardsmen either.

The Kent State example only serves to prove the point that when a government opens fire against its own citizens it often has the effect of encouraging a groundswell of opposition to the state itself.

[95thrifleman]

The Kent State example only serves to prove the point that when a government opens fire against its own citizens it often has the effect of encouraging a groundswell of opposition to the state itself.

Which led to a peaceful change in American policy which did not require some "militia" to rise up and defend so-called freedoms.

[Sir Adrian]

thats some retarded logic
Less shootings or more shootings has nothing to do with freedom. Safety =! Freedom
UK is certainly less free than the US. Just look at how you guys view free speech
And to answer your question, our right to defend ourselves from would be attackers or tyrannical governments is more important

Your right to defend yourself is what's making these shootings possible and your AR-15s, Remingtons and Thompson breachloaders will do jack against any tyrannical government. This isn't the 1700s when your backwoods farmer had access to pretty much the same military tech as as the government. If your tyrannical government wants you dead its going to kill you from near space before you can even see it coming.

The only way to resist a government these days is by peaceful protest, ridicule and meme-ing the out of them.

[95thrifleman]

Your right to defend yourself is what's making these shootings possible and your AR-15s, Remingtons and Thompson breachloaders will do jack against any tyrannical government. This isn't the 1700s when your backwoods farmer had access to pretty much the same military tech as as the government. If your tyrannical government wants you dead its going to kill you from near space before you can even see it coming.

Don't give them ideas. I can see the day when the NRA campaigns for the right of US citizens to own LAWs to "protect themselves from tyranny"