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Thread: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

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    Default Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    And now, to discuss a country who's inherent sexism is not as well understood in the West as say, Saudi Arabia or Iran:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-exclude-women

    https://www.npr.org/2018/08/07/63648...keep-women-out

    https://www.reuters.com/video/2018/0...eoId=452418984

    There is much talk about declining participation in the Japanese workforce due to aging, but the question of how many females are participating in this workforce often goes unasked. Japanese women, once they have children, are expected to childrear, do house work, cook and essentially stop working or be viewed as irresponsible mothers, while Japanese men are expected to work unrealistic hours to most Western eyes. Besides that, in Japan unmarried women over the age of 25 are viewed as "discounted Christmas cakes", which is just absolutely unthinkable since a woman's fertility certainly doesn't decline at the age of 25 in the huge bulk of cases. Gender relations, to my understanding, are also not the best in Japan, which I'm sure doesn't help their birth rate. Outright discrimination such as this doesn't help in that regard either.

    From the Guardian article:

    The revelations have added weight to claims of institutional sexism in the Japanese workplace and education, frustrating efforts by the prime minister, Shinzo Abe, to create a society “in which women can shine”.

    While women’s representation in the workplace is rising, Japan compares poorly with other countries in promoting women to senior positions. Many female employees find it difficult to return to work after giving birth.
    The education minister, Yoshimasa Hayashi, said exam discrimination against women was “absolutely unacceptable,” adding that the ministry planned to examine admission procedures at all of the country’s medical schools.

    The gender equality minister, Seiko Noda, told public broadcaster NHK: “It’s extremely disturbing if the university didn’t let women pass the exams because they think it’s difficult to work with female doctors.”
    The revelations sparked fury on social media. “I’m 29 and will probably never get married,” said one poster. “Women are pitied if they don’t, but Japanese women who are married and working and have kids end up sleeping less than anybody in the world. To now hear that even our skills are suppressed makes me shake with rage.”

    Another said: “I ignored my parents, who said women don’t belong in academia, and got into the best university in Japan. But in job interviews I’m told ‘If you were a man, we’d hire you right away.’ My enemy wasn’t my parents, but all society itself.”

    The lawyers also said that the university’s former chairman and president had received money from the parents of applicants whose entrance exam scores were padded, according to Kyodo.
    They allegedly raised the exam results of the children of former graduates in the hope that the parents would make donations to the school, the news agency said.
    And besides all of that, it apparently raised male scores by sometimes as much as 20 points to give them preferential treatment over women, and accepted bribes from certain government officials to "ease" the entry of their children into the school. No matter your views on gender equality or gender roles this seems, at least to my eyes, a classic case of unfair discrimination in tandem with corruption.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Genghis Skahn; August 09, 2018 at 02:25 PM.

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    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Japan is an extremely conservative country compared to developed Western countries. It may have robots and politeness and low crime and good health, but I don't get the impression it's a good place to live in comparison to the West. Indeed in wealthy areas we have those things here. I often think the West has major problems, but a large part of the reason for that is we have the political and sociocultural freedom to wreck our homes and our neighbourhoods and our bodies and our relationships. Whereas in somewhere like Japan, they have very little freedom, it just so happens that their politics and culture lend themselves to certain good habits that make them seem on the surface to be better than the West.

    The reality is if you are by nature a healthy person with respect for your body and for those around you, and if you have the money to live in an area where other people have the same values, the West is still always going to be the better place to live until the rest of the world sorts out its, for want of a better word, backwardness. I don't consider traditional culture to be backwardness necessarily, I don't really view good habits such as restraint, moderation and considerateness to be tied to traditional culture or to modern culture but rather they always existed and were never universal. But I do consider forcing your will and prejudices on people through corruption and persecution to be backward. We do this in the West as well but not to 50% of our population.
    Last edited by Copperknickers II; August 09, 2018 at 04:12 PM.
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    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

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    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    This is disturbing from a supposedly modernised country in Asia. Does Japan have anti-discrimination laws at all, or is this just a cultural thing?
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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Japanese women are often under severe stress and pressure. Even more so then man. The life out there is extremely compatible for them.
    And lets be real, Korea and Japan are extremely stresful countries with high suicide rates where people don't even want to make families anymore.

    On the other hand, I am sure that the new global incel/alt-right movement would cherish such an act and show Japan as an example place.

    I don't know where the world is going anymore really
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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    This is disturbing from a supposedly modernised country in Asia. Does Japan have anti-discrimination laws at all, or is this just a cultural thing?
    While Japan does have anti discrimination laws, this is probably a cultural thing a bit like the overworking problem in Japan.

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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Yeah, it's AFAIK ingrained within the culture moreso than the laws of the country. The western concept of maternity leave + returning to work, while it seems extremely natural to many of us(and I heavily encourage it because it's probably better for both women and the birth rate) isn't a very culturally accepted phenomenon. Whether it's legally accepted, I don't know(I would imagine so at this point).
    Last edited by Genghis Skahn; August 09, 2018 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Strange OP for a time where a University student is more likely to be female than male
    No need to phrase it like it's the XX century.

    In general, one wonders if this happens then just how much corruption goes behind scores setting in ranking and in institutional learning.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Quote Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn View Post
    And besides all of that, it apparently raised male scores by sometimes as much as 20 points to give them preferential treatment over women, and accepted bribes from certain government officials to "ease" the entry of their children into the school. No matter your views on gender equality or gender roles this seems, at least to my eyes, a classic case of unfair discrimination in tandem with corruption.

    Thoughts?
    It's crystal clear. You already said it, it's a case of gender discrimination and corruption.And a cultural thing (well, gender discrimination is cultural).
    ---
    The question is, how corrupt are the Universities? for example, in Spain, Pablo Casado: Spain's new PP leader hit by degree scandal - The Local
    ... Judge Carmen Rodriguez-Medel says she found possible evidence of wrongdoing as she investigated the university and other students over degree irregularities...The King Juan Carlos University is where Casado's fellow party colleague Cristina Cifuentes obtained the same diploma in dubious circumstances in what became known as the "mastergate" scandal.
    Under fire for weeks, Cifuentes eventually resigned as president of the Madrid region
    Last edited by Ludicus; August 09, 2018 at 07:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Deplorable.

    However, I am more interested in discussing the part where they say women quit to become mothers. I wonder what would be a possible solution to such a dilemma. Surely skewing the results, or an oath of working, are both unacceptable. What then?

    Training doctors is expensive and graduates are usually carefully calibrated to the needs of the system (ratios of 1.03:1). Therefore, even a small drop is significant. Would a gender quota be better? For instance, 55% of accepted are reserved for male and 45% for female.

    Or would it be better if women are more encouraged to become family doctors/ general practitioners since they are less essential than a radiologist or neurosurgeon?

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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    Japan is an extremely conservative country compared to developed Western countries. It may have robots and politeness and low crime and good health, but I don't get the impression it's a good place to live in comparison to the West.
    On the contrary, I would say that a place with robots, politeness, low crime (? they don't have that low crime compared to the West) and good health and very conservative is a very good place to live if you want to escape snowflakes, slactivists, SJWs and Feminazis.
    I was laughing while watching a video of people trying to explain to the Japanese that "Ghost in the Shell" casting of a white woman was controversial in the United Ultraprogressive States of America.
    In short, the Japanese didn't give a crap and couldn't understand what got the Americans so worked up. You have people asking, confused "Is it because Scarlett Johansson is too pretty?"

    But yes, despite my appreciation for the Japanese holding true to their culture that is definitely different (not worse, different) than Western culture, the case you presented is one of rampart discrimination and corruption. This has less to do with a healthy respect for gender roles and stereotypes and much more to do with insanely harmful practices.
    If the Japanese society prefers for women to be mothers and housekeepers so be it, but you don't have to doctor and screw over their tests.
    Last edited by alhoon; August 11, 2018 at 06:29 AM.
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    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    On the contrary, I would say that a place with robots, politeness, low crime (? they don't have that low crime compared to the West) and good health and very conservative is a very good place to live if you want to escape snowflakes, slactivists, SJWs and Feminazis.
    Well yeah. I guess Japan would be quite a good place to live if you were not a minority, LGBT, a woman or a liberal. Unfortunately the majority of the population fall into one or more of those categories which means for most it's not a great place to live.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Well yeah. I guess Japan would be quite a good place to live if you were not a minority, LGBT, a woman or a liberal. Unfortunately the majority of the population fall into one or more of those categories which means for most it's not a great place to live.
    Japan might be a conservative country, but I wouldn't say it's a bad place to live if you're a liberal at all. There are entire wings of Japanese culture which are more liberal than others, such as the entertainment industry--I'm not sure if it would be fair to classify the people making anime, games, light novels and manga as "conservative" in the Japanese sense. The question of LGBT tolerance is also more nuanced than that. It may be true that the average Japanese may have very harsh views on LGBT people, but in the past, before their Americanization(especially in the form of their new constitution) there were time periods in Japan where being a homosexual male, for example, was accepted(bushido notably has some homoerotic elements to it), and there's homo-erotic art from the Edo period which support this idea as well IIRC. Moreover, regardless of any anti-LGBT opinions the average Japanese might hold, there are several genres of manga/anime/light novels which specifically appeal to people with who enjoy homo-eroticism. These would be the Shounen Ai(boys love), Shoujo Ai(girls love) and to a certain degree Josei(targets adult women) which often has lots of homoerotic male relationships depicted in them; trans people likewise sometimes appear in their media(usually male crossdressers dressing as women--FtM seem much rarer). Point being, that even though the average Japanese might be homophobic or what have you(I imagine LGBT kids are bullied like crazy in school for eg.), their country allows their entertainment industry to appeal to LGBT audiences--which again, is a different story from the much more homophobic, on average, Middle-East where you can be executed for simply being gay. Well, in Japan you won't have to worry about that and you can consume as much homo-erotic media as you want(and there's a fair bit of it at this point), as long as you do it on your own free time. Of course, there's still much cultural discrimination against LGBT people in modern Japan, I'm sure.
    Last edited by Genghis Skahn; August 11, 2018 at 01:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    Well yeah. I guess Japan would be quite a good place to live if you were not a minority, LGBT, a woman or a liberal. Unfortunately the majority of the population fall into one or more of those categories which means for most it's not a great place to live.
    I don't think you're right. Many (perhaps most?) Japanese women like the way the culture is. They look down at Europeans for our bizarre and strange ways. You forget that our culture (including women rights) is not "Right" or "wrong"... it is a set of morals and cultural rules. 100 years ago things were different. If you could tell your great, great grandmother that your wife would be working instead of taking care of the children she would probably be scandalized about that irresponsible floozy.
    In fact, where I live, it is perfectly acceptable for the woman to be an at-home-mom while the father works his butt off. My grandfather, may he rest in peace, was disagreeing with me when I was telling him that I will look for a woman that would want to keep working. I am not "neutral" about it; I would want my future wife to work.


    Also, I don't think gays are discriminated against in Japan, at least not more than Europe. Perhaps there is some stigma that would make the life of people in the spotlight more difficult, but I don't think in the everyday life of a gay bank accountant in Japan is more difficult that in Europe.

    trans people likewise sometimes appear in their media(usually male crossdressers dressing as women--FtM seem much rarer)
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    Last edited by alhoon; August 13, 2018 at 01:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Godwing's law version 2:
    "As an online discussion about Japan progresses, it becomes inevitable that someone or something will eventually mention TRAPS, regardless of the original topic."
    Gender discrimination is becoming over-debated, while what you mention is the new controversial
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Godwing's law version 2:
    "As an online discussion about Japan progresses, it becomes inevitable that someone or something will eventually mention TRAPS, regardless of the original topic."
    Babymetal dude! Rock On.

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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    I think Japanese culture is pretty conservative, despite a lot of familiar western looking legislation around equality their ideas about gender roles are well established.

    Its their country, but its a shame to waste intellectual potential by favouring men over women if their scores don't warrant it.

    There's a lot of stereotypes about Japan that my very limited exposure (i have Japanese relatives but have not been there) suggest are misunderstandings like "they are all sickoes" when its just a different view of sexuality (albeit one that's pretty shocking to me, especially their views on age of consent and sex work). The stuff about "they are all polite" is true of Japanese women in general (never met a rude one) but not the men, who can be polite or arrogant etc.

    Status and position in hierarchies is very important for men, and as doctors have high status men will go further (including corruption) to get those qualifications.

    Family and patronage networks are very strong too. As mentioned above that's true in most cultures and I've seen example in my country eg a male doctor without the qualifications recruited to a position ahead of a female doctor who did have them. She complained, but it became clear she would lose her current job if she pushed the matter. She was offered another job (against protocol, as a bribe to shut her up) but she left that hospital to find work elsewhere.

    Gender equality is more of an issue in Australia than Japan, and is less likely to develop to such an extent as OP shows. There is still active discrimination in some areas though.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    "they are all sickoes" when its just a different view of sexuality.
    Now we moved to tentacles from Traps?

    In Greece, the vast majority of Japanese people we meet, men or women are very polite. Disturbingly so if I may say. They also follow rules to the letter which in Greece you're not meant to do as the whole system blocks up.
    What I mean is that at the airport, they declare everything in the custom services taking up x3 the time other people would. So if you travel abroad and you see a group of Japanese approaching the entrance, rush up to the custom services or you're in for a long wait.

    However despite what is suggested in this thread, I have not seen them treating women as inferior. I have seen women being traditional and happily adopting gender roles. But I have never seen a Japanese man talk down his wife or mother. I have seen Europeans doing it, I have seen Middle Easterners doing it (including Israelis or Middle Eastern Christians - it is not an Islam thing) but I have yet to see a Japanese doing it. Chinese? Perhaps. Philipinese (or those islands in the Pacific)? Perhaps. Japanese? Never.
    On occasion, I have witnessed Europeans or Middle Easterners slap (or threatened with their hand raised etc) their wives in public. The notion that a Japanese man would do it is alien from what I have seen of them. I mean if someone told me "Hey! I saw a Japanese man threatening his wife in the docks! He raised his hand to slap him and the personel had to intervene!" I would simply not believe it and assume the person telling me confused the Japanese with some other ethnicity.
    Last edited by alhoon; August 15, 2018 at 02:59 AM.
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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Now we moved to tentacles from Traps?
    Yeah nah, there's stuff in Japanese culture thats really odd, like the kids cartoon where the raccoons use their scrotums to work magic (a quick Google reveals its called Pom Poko). Apparently not sexual, and somehow folksy and fairy tale stuff, but to western eyes very weird shading into creepy.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    In Greece, the vast majority of Japanese people we meet, men or women are very polite. Disturbingly so if I may say. They also follow rules to the letter which in Greece you're not meant to do as the whole system blocks up.
    What I mean is that at the airport, they declare everything in the custom services taking up x3 the time other people would. So if you travel abroad and you see a group of Japanese approaching the entrance, rush up to the custom services or you're in for a long wait.
    I've heard Greece is a bit different, especially in the big cities.

    OT
    My mate from Edessa took his stern old Pontian mother home to Greece to visit the family. They were in the queue for the flight to Athens from somewhere up north, and a taxi driver barged the queue and said to the women checking people in "hold them up so some of them miss their flight and I'll get a fair from Makedonia to Athens". Maria flipped, she started yelling at the guy, then she was tearing strips off the locals for letting him push in "you're not the real Greeks! We are! (i.e. the Greeks who sent to Australia)" she was telling them by the end, I think Kon had to restrain her before she started calling people Turks and started a fight.

    When they were away from the cities people were so honest and polite, they had cafe owners giving them free coffee while they waited for a bus, ordinary Greeks tend to be generous and kind: the same when he went to Krete recently, a fisherman took Kon and his wife sailing for free.


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    However despite what is suggested in this thread, I have not seen them treating women as inferior. I have seen women being traditional and happily adopting gender roles. But I have never seen a Japanese man talk down his wife or mother. I have seen Europeans doing it, I have seen Middle Easterners doing it (including Israelis or Middle Eastern Christians - it is not an Islam thing) but I have yet to see a Japanese doing it. Chinese? Perhaps. Philipinese (or those islands in the Pacific)? Perhaps. Japanese? Never.
    On occasion, I have witnessed Europeans or Middle Easterners slap (or threatened with their hand raised etc) their wives in public. The notion that a Japanese man would do it is alien from what I have seen of them. I mean if someone told me "Hey! I saw a Japanese man threatening his wife in the docks! He raised his hand to slap him and the personel had to intervene!" I would simply not believe it and assume the person telling me confused the Japanese with some other ethnicity.
    You make a subtle and interesting point, I think a very worthwhile one.

    I'd agree they are typically restrained and stoic but I have seen Japanese men express anger (not sure who at though, it was in Japanese) on the street in Australia, and friends who have travelled to Japan have told me you can get yelled at in the street by men for no apparent reason. I thought it likely these young women from Australia might have accidentally infringed some Japanese cultural norm and attracted unexpected wrath.

    They do have strong traditional roles. My brother in law's mother's family were samurai from near Hiroshima (she was there for the attack). She was ostracised form marrying a Gaijin, but also she would have found it hard to marry as there's a stigma about nuclear survivors in Japan (they found it very hard to marry). I've known Japanese women who studied in Australia and found themselves subject to enormous pressure when they returned to Japan to drop little cultural traits they had acquired.

    One of my friends married a lovely Japanese women who suffered terrible mental illness, i think in part because she found Australian culture so alien after growing up in Japan with its clear culturally defined roles. She returned to japan (leaving her children here, extremely sad situation) and is apparently recovering. I guess the ridiculous amount of freedom and chaotic lack of clear identity in Australia affected her health. So we look weird to them too.

    I would not say cheating on men's test scores is about oppressing women as such, its about given men access to status markers their traditional roles require, while maintaining the facade of western cultural norms they've adopted since WWII.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    I'm finding it difficult to care.

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    Default Re: Tokyo Medical School Tampers With Test Scores To Purposely Exclude Women

    ]
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I would not say cheating on men's test scores is about oppressing women as such, its about given men access to status markers their traditional roles require, while maintaining the facade of western cultural norms they've adopted since WWII.
    The fact says different. Given opportunity the 'Tradition' can only survive by cheating. Just about the same as what the good and the beautiful had to resort to in Athens when the democracy rolled around.
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