Need help with making fantasy style medieval map

[Cookiegod]

Hey,
I'm not sure where exactly this belongs, since I'm new to this subforum. It's mostly for asking for help/feedback, but could evolve into presentation. Feel free to move it anywhere you think it fits (but pls PM me so I know where to find my post).

So I've gotten pretty good at making Medieval 2 maps based on ingame data, because I made many for hotseats.
Sadly most of them are gone now. These are some of the few that remain:

Example 1: Third age; modified by others who use it til this day, but based on my template.

Example 2: Ancient Conquest.

Example 3: Vanilla map I made very quickly to prove my point.

I think the problem they all have in common is painfully obvious.
I can make them for any mod somewhat quick. The problem though is that these maps are always pixelated, and never particularly beautiful, even if you add bridges.
They are cancer to your eyes, but when it comes to hotseats, that's often ok since it's more important to show the developments on the map and conquests. Often I make a gif out of them.
I mostly use gimp. Sometimes Inkscape, which I have very limited knowledge of. The border on the AC one is made with it. Again automated. I'm an engineer, so I've learned to be efficient. ^^

Still though. It's cancer on your eyes. I think the best ones I made were those for EB2, but those are sadly gone from the internet. They didn't look much like the ones above.
I've often struggled to make it a bit less cancerous, but never been quite good at it. So most of the time I've put it off.

But now that I'm trying to write an AAR based on a hotseat campaign, I try to be more artsy. It should not look like game data.

Problem is though, that I'm not so good at being artsy, as I am at being efficient. My resources are also limited. I do have a very bad graphic pad stashed away somewhere, but I'm also not particularly good at using it. It wasn't even pressure sensitive, so one important tool of graphics design is lacking for me. I should maybe buy a new one, but for now I have to do without.
I'm also left handed using a right hand mouse. So drawing with my mouse is also fairly limited, if not completely out of the question.
I can draw stuff (though I'm not that good at it) on paper, then photograph and edit it, but that makes it a one way street. I can also draw using path tools in Gimp or Inkscape, which can suffice to make

I would very much like it to be beautiful. And though I haven't really locked on a definite style, my vision is for it so be something like this witchermap, or some historic maps.
It doesn't have to be a complete recreation of the ingame map. It can also be completely historic, or a compromise.

Before I'm gonna show you what I've started out to do, I want to ask you if you have any ideas yet?

All right.

So I've very recently started to make this map for the AAR, and I'm very much at the beginning:

Of Wolves and Prey AAR map WIP

As you may have noticed, the map is very big. This is because I'll use zoomed in versions of it most of the time. Which doesn't make the task easier. Borders are drawn with path and likely very inaccurate. I haven't started making rivers yet. Those are also going to be quite the challenge, I think.
I'm also in doubt if it was a good idea to use a real map template to begin with. Maybe I should have drawn from free hand. People back then didn't have exact maps. But again, I'm not good at drawing, so...

My plan is to make some own map symbols. Ships, cities...

I'm really early in the process. That's mostly for you to give me some pointers before it's too late. Text font is probably unimportant, but I've written Genoa in "Carolingia" to test it out.

I also don't know which things should be put in to the map and which to omit. Maps always have limited space and should be easy to read. At the same time this one should be fantasystyle/historical themed.

So basically I'm just fishing out here. Any ideas? Pointers? Thx in advance.

EDIT: Oh, I just found this old map I made.

Buargh

I think it's fairly obvious what my problem with this one is. It's very much the same as what I fear the new map I'm trying to make will become. Disregard the awful city symbols. I can do them much better easily. It looks way too much computer generated. And the borders I drew free hand in the north are way too curved. That's a problem. Amirite? :S

[Lifthrasir]

First of all, welcome to the Graphic Workshop

For the general map layouts, I'd suggest the use of the online mapper as explained here.

Once you have defined your style, I'd remove the colors and would adjust light and contrast accordingly. I'd would then apply layers (colors and texture one) with different settings.

Finally, you can add symbols and text on top.

I'm not a specialist of Gimp (I'm using Photoshop) but Paleologos should be able to give you some good advices about it

Just remember one thing: patience is the key.

On a side note, I'm also a lefthanded using the mouse with his right hand

[Cookiegod]

Well that's a double high-five with my left and right to you good sir!
I used the DEMIS-mapper as well. The problem is more with what is to come afterwards.
As to define style: Do you have any pointers there? I coloured France and Spain just for a quick overview, I don't plan on keeping them that way.
The light lines defining the borders are also probably not going to be part of the end result.
Mountains and rivers are another problem. I fear the rivers will take a huge amount of work, especially if I'm going to make them by "cutting" into the landmass. The mountains might be even worse, especially if I were to draw lots and lots of mountain symbols. The height relief you see a bit blurred I just left there for myself to get more orientation. They might just stay or be replaced by something even cruder, if I don't find a better way to draw mountains.

One important thing is that the map shouldn't look computermade, even though it is.

[Lifthrasir]

Most of the old maps have no color or have the areas beside the borders colorized. As for the texture, I'd use an old paper or a parchment one.
Some of the old maps don't show mountains at all and only the main rivers should be represented IMO. Beside you could add drawings such a coat of arm, or a town/fortified place/ship on the sea and/or a compass rose.
There are many options. I'll prepare something just to show you the 1st steps when time permitting. Note that it will be made with Photoshop but I guess that Gimp should have similar stuff

[Diocle]

In my opinion, if you haven't yet seen it, you should take a look to the Tabula Peutingeriana, it's still the most impressive map I've seen:

Here you can find the single parts with an index: https://www.tabula-peutingeriana.de/index.html

The complete Tabula: https://www.euratlas.net/cartogra/peutinger/index.html

[Lifthrasir]

For a start, a tuto for the following result would it be helpful for you?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Cookiegod]

Hm Lifthrasir, I think you misunderstood me. I know how to use GIMP (I know less about Inkscape, but that's mostly because I didn't need it much, if I do, I use tutorials).
You probably made your image with DEMIS worldmapper, coastlines, waterbodies and heightshading activated, topography (or whatever the layer is called that colours it brownish) probably not, then you probably found a parchment texture and used it as a background. You deleted the ocean and then probably made the green into transparent. Then you used overlay or transparency toggle, and maybe even a lense or lighting effect.

You can see I did something very similar here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Thing is: Both of our maps still looks like they're computer drawn.

My question relates more to the artistic side then to the technical one. Designchoices to go with.
The WIP-map is likely going to be a template for several maps. Some might be zoomed in, show smaller regions as part of a larger realm, some might show specific things, some might be zoomed out. Right now I'm working on creating a template that shows the map as a whole.

The texture, however, is something I'm going to look at very late. The maps won't stand on their own, but as part of a text. So a texture might be contraproductive sometimes. Also, my map isn't always going to be top down. Sometimes it might be part of a bigger scene like this:
[IMG][/IMG]
Worked into a scene where people plan their next moves, so the parchment would then be a different one.

About the Peutinger-map: Yes, I know it and I use it for my text, when I need to estimate how long it'll take my character to travel from one place to another.
It is however a roadmap. It never intended to be geographically accurate (which the Medievalists were never good at, but this exacerbated the problem). It's like those tubemaps.

My map has specific goals as well: On one hand it needs to be easily readable and informative, on the other hand it needs to have a certain flair. That's why I said Fantasy in the beginning and refered to the Witcher map:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The work in process map I showed in the beginning has of course too bright and stark colours. I was only testing out if the borders were somewhat right. The colours are per se probably necessary. Note how the witchermap features areas in revolt etc. I want to be able to do the same with areas such as Normandy, which pro forma belong to France but de facto is ruled by England.

Similar to the Witchermap, I also intend to make some coats of arms to put in, and maybe even work in some miniatures or similar stuff. The Peutingermap also has some interesting stylistic elements to draw from. Such as the harboursymbol in Ostia and the emperor in a circle in Rome.

[Lifthrasir]

You just need to find the style you like and to try to reproduce it. Until then I can't see what I can do for you.

[Cookiegod]

This is a cutout of the map, now centered on France. I think it is representative of what I'm trying to do. Yet even here we're dealing with WIP.
I plan to do the same thing with a great part of Europe, and especially northern Italy, since that's where my AAR is centered. So if a protagonist of mine goes to France, I could use this map to explain what's going on there. Same goes for different other parts of the known world, and of course I could use the map in its entirety, when I feel like it.

I put some cities in there, and only those that can be found ingame. I did colour most of France blue, but Bretagne (for no reason other than experimentation) grey and Normandy red. Inside France the borders of the counties of Maine and Anjou are also represented. I might draw the rest of the county borders in and give all of them different shades of blue. Normandy might (depending on what you think) get red stripes on blue to represent that it belongs to both England and France at the same time.

Can't say that the coats of arms are historic. I generally attempted to use the coats of arms of the ruling dynasty at the time or the arms of the wider region, for Paris I just used one from the 14th century (anachronism), Bordeaux has the coat of arms of Poitou, since it was ruled from there at that time and I couldn't find a coat of arms of Aquitaine that predates the English, where it got the norman lion on red background. The coat of arms are very likely too big. I made the outline of the coats of arms a bit crooked on purpose, but that's hardly visible anymore.
I'm thinking about giving the cities other symbols instead, and put coat of arms to represent the major dynasties of the time.
This historic map is a treasure trove of map symbols, I could give each city its own symbol and wouldn't even have to draw them myself.

Obviously there's a big empty spot in the middle. I might put a mountain in to represent the massif central, and/or a bigger miniature and/or something else, but on the other hand I'm also careful not to overload the map.

The parchment is a quick one. I googled after one, took it and used it as a background. Normally I'm a bit hesitant about that because of copyright laws, so I render them myself, but I have to admit I'm not able to make a parchment as pretty as that one.

All in all it's an attempt to reconcile ingame with real history. The borders you see cannot be found ingame. The cities however all exist in the game.

So what do you guys think? Suggestions/critique? Do you want me to give you some alternatives or can you already spot some things which definitely do not work out?
What about the font? Should Normandy just be red or maybe red/blue stripes? Or should I remove all landcolouring alltogether? And what do you guys think about the rivers?

Thanks in advance.

[Cookiegod]

Another version of the map.
Cities have symbols instead of coat of arms, coat of arms instead represent the major noble houses at that time. Borders have changed as well and those of many counties have been added.

France map v1b

France map v1c

Suggestions as to what is good, what is bad and what needs changing would be appreciated.

EDIT: Added a 3rd version (1c), with toned down colours. Also another question: Do you prefer toned down colours, or do you maybe even think the colours should be removed alltogether?

[Caillagh de Bodemloze]

I probably need to spend a bit of time looking at these, so the comments here are just the first things that sprang into my mind when I looked at them. I hope they will be helpful - at least as giving you an idea of what one person's first thoughts were.

So: I don't think I would understand what the coats of arms were for, if I saw this map in an AAR. I think I would assume they marked important places (because that's what you usually see marked on maps). Your preferences will be different from mine, but if this were my map, I might place each coat of arms so that it marks the major land-holding of the family (and add the name of the holding under the coat of arms). Then I'd probably add a border on each side of the map where I could list the coats of arms with the names of the families.

I think having colours is helpful, as long as it's clear what the different colours represent. The colours themselves are purely a matter of taste, so the only comment I'm going to make about those is to say that in your v1c, the distinction between the different colours is obviously not as great as in v1b. The striped regions, in particular, are less clearly different from the regions next to them. I can still see the difference, but it's less obvious. You should use whichever colours you like best, of course, but the colours you like best might depend on what you expect people to use the map for.

[Cookiegod]

I agree with you on all of these points. I too think the map would need explaining on the sides, especially with regards to the crests of the major houses, which I have placed roughly where their core territory was, though it's not that easy, since many of them are all over the place. The blue crest with the white stripe below Reims also held land were the kings right hand is (were counts of Blois west of Paris and Champagne east of it), the red lion above Bordeaux (Ramnulfids/house of Poitou) also ruled Aquitaine and Gascogne, though not always, and for a short while even Toulouse, and though smaller, I surmised the region to the north is their core territory. The Raymondines/counts of Toulouse and the counts of Barcelona shared control of the Provence.
Burgundy, Flanders, Trencavel (southeast of Toulouse) and Bretagne are the only simple ones in that regard.

I think the city symbols are still too big and take too much space on the map. Maybe replace the symbols with mere dots.
I am also thinking about replacing city names with numbers and explain them on the side also, or take the cities out of the picture entirely.




If I'm to be completely honest, I'm not happy about any of these three maps. They are all lacking something I'm not that good at putting my finger on. A coherent style maybe? Order?
I'm struggling to explain because I don't know what it is either.

[Dude with the Food]

I was holding off commenting because I know I have a tendency of sounding overly critical rather than supportive but I can tell you're a bit stuck for ideas so I'll throw in what opinions I've got. I think what you're feeling is off is an internal consistency.

• Is the base map you've used a stock image from Google? I think I've used the exact same because I recognise the rounded nature of the coastline. Normally I've traced over it in a thick line because that I've been making a clear province map for whatever reason but if you want a look that's less artificial, perhaps hand draw it with shakes and all. It does mean starting again though.

• Gradients also look computer generated - the white province borders and the contested lands
  (if that's what they are)
  in Normandy and Catalonia. Seas too are generally somewhat uniform if you compare older or old-looking maps although it's not really noticeable in B or C. Maybe extend the gradient to soften it more but it's more the internal borders I think could be marked out properly.

• Saying that, IF you did want to redo some of the lines, make them consistent. Provinces are white gradients, crests have slightly reddish ones, the coastline is faded and the rivers are very bold. Not sure how and to be fair that would be entirely up to you if you wanted to but it could be something to consider.

• Colours are similarly inconsistent. The Norman and Toulouse reds are brighter than in Beziers and the Parisien blue is heavily saturated compared to Anjou/Champagne. About blocking in the country - personally I prefer the bold colour over the overlay. It's similar to having gradients - and overlay just doesn't look quite so medieval. However, you could consider using the colour as a thick outline of the country or use pinstripes if you're using a bold colour.

• One last suggestion; instead of cities, use the names of provinces/area. If having the city names is more useful for the AAR, fair enough - it's an alternative space filler and you could always leave cities marked out with current symbols or dots or whatever else.

Hopefully some of that might be useful or at least thought provoking.I might have time to do a mock-up of some of the things I mean if you like but to be honest, you're starting at a decent point already.

[Lifthrasir]

• Gradients also look computer generated - the white province borders and the contested lands
  (if that's what they are)
  in Normandy and Catalonia. Seas too are generally somewhat uniform if you compare older or old-looking maps although it's not really noticeable in B or C. Maybe extend the gradient to soften it more but it's more the internal borders I think could be marked out properly.

• Saying that, IF you did want to redo some of the lines, make them consistent. Provinces are white gradients, crests have slightly reddish ones, the coastline is faded and the rivers are very bold. Not sure how and to be fair that would be entirely up to you if you wanted to but it could be something to consider.

• Colours are similarly inconsistent. The Norman and Toulouse reds are brighter than in Beziers and the Parisien blue is heavily saturated compared to Anjou/Champagne. About blocking in the country - personally I prefer the bold colour over the overlay. It's similar to having gradients - and overlay just doesn't look quite so medieval. However, you could consider using the colour as a thick outline of the country or use pinstripes if you're using a bold colour.

Agree with all these points.

[Cookiegod]

Thanks a lot. Please never hold back with criticism towards me. It's great advice.

About the details:

• It's unlikely that you've used that exact same map since I used Demis World Mapper, and then Gimp & Inkscape to create those outlines.

It might sound somewhat ironic, but I did that, because I felt that a map that is too rugged (i.e. pixelated) would be even worse. Drawing the entirety of the coastline with my hands however is somewhat impossible. It seems like an extreme amount of work and I'm not even sure I know how/lack the equipment. I can try to play around with the trace outlines tool.

• I think your comment about consistency with the lines is an excellent one. It is something I failed to consider, but which nevertheless makes sense, and I'll make sure to remember that.

I have to confess I didn't put that much thought in it. I was more focused on getting the borders in than on the representation afterwards... If that even makes sense.

• Same goes with colour consistency: You are absolutely right. I failed to consider that. Crests: I took most of them from google, modified them very slightly. The Parisien and the one for Toulouse have the shade, which is problematic - I have to remove that. The Royal one I made myself, but forgot to allign the blue with that of the others.
• Coloured outlines (instead of colouring everything) and dots (instead of symbols, save maybe for the crests) are what I think I might go after next. The symbols on the coloured background don't do that well. I had btw. several different versions of outlines for the province borders. I have no idea as to what made me pick the one I did, but I know now they lack the same consistency anyway.

I would love to see your mock-up.

[Lifthrasir]

Actually, on the 1st map you posted, the lines are a lot more consistent. I'd say that only the white borders seems a bit weird IMO. So, could it be possible to make a map only with these lines? Nothing else. The idea is to use it on top of another one containing the details. That way, these lines should stay "consistent

[Cookiegod]

I have to confess I never even intended for those lines to remain. It was one of many many short cuts I did without realising how much they destroy the result.
And yeah, one thing I definitely overdid everywhere and should refrain from as much as possible are all those blurred transitions.

[Kilo11]

First things first, in my opinion all of these maps are pretty sharp in at least a few different respects, so props on that! The critiques of everyone above (yourself included Cookiegod) are all correct as well, but what you've got here is great (and I will certainly be thinking of taking you up on your offer to possibly make me some maps for my AAR )

However, regarding the discussion going on above, I think you need to think about one big thing before answering/addressing any of the questions or critiques above, and that is what you want the map for. Above you had said that

Also, my map isn't always going to be top down. Sometimes it might be part of a bigger scene like this:

Worked into a scene where people plan their next moves, so the parchment would then be a different one.

Now, if you're making a map to go into an image like this, then I think that one with all the pictures for the cities and coats of arms (without any explanation) are perfect, as that would better represent the situation of an actual general/leader of the time who knows all of the different royal houses, their symbols, etc. However, if you are making a map for the reader to look at, you should aim for a solid blend of artistry/presentation value and usefulness for understanding the AAR. That is, coats of arms will need explaining, pictures like that of the city images and the king should probably be removed to make it easier to see what is actually going on in the map, and the colors need to stand out more like in version b. The main point is simply for you to know why you want this map in there (scene-building, effect, or just helping the reader to follow what's going on) and crafting the map so that it will best suit that particular purpose. At the end of it all, you'll probably find that you want a couple maps that serve different aims and can be used more tactically in your writing. In my AAR I have only made one type of map (crude-ish strategy/tactical maps to show where people are going), but that is because I am not very adept at map-making. If I had your skills, I'd have made 4 or 5 different map types to use in different situations for different effects.

However, that all being said, if you do want to have one "master map" to use everywhere, here are my thoughts and comments on it:

1. The colors should be more intense/easily discernible like in version b, and there should be a legend for what they mean.
2. The coats of arms are cool and can stay in, but also need to be explained in the legend.
3. The city images will take too much space and distract from other more important things on the map like armies and movements of frontlines and agents.
4. I agree with Dude with the Food that province names are nicer than city names, at least in this area where the cities are well known to most readers. That's more of a personal preference though I think.

Those are just my thoughts though. No need to take them too seriously, especially as I now know for certain that you are a far better map-maker than I

[Cookiegod]

No need to take them too seriously, especially as I now know for certain that you are a far better map-maker than I

I disagree with that last sentiment of yours, but agree with the former. An artsy map isn't serious. I'm always trying to be effective but I also strive for it to be lookable. The thing with different perspectives and so on however is something I've had in mind from the start. That is why I made the map more or less adaptable. I'm using the France cutout mostly as an experiment, so I'd also be able to make maps of other parts of the world, or, like I said, one of a big chunk of Eurasia.

Outline

So obviously I'd have to vary both styles and content depending on the context that I'm trying to show. And yeah, I agree. The thing with the cities was a failure. I had actually even started with area names, then switched to cities for no good reason. I think I panicked because I tried to somehow keep it linked to ingame.

I think I'll switch the font as well. Anyone have some suggestions as to what fonts I should switch to?

[Kilo11]

I think I'll switch the font as well. Anyone have some suggestions as to what fonts I should switch to?

This map will be for your AAR which is Italian-based, right? Or is it for something where another faction is central? I ask because my thoughts on font are very region/faction-specific.