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Thread: Alternative for Europe: Hungary's Viktor Orban calls for right-wing union in Europe

  1. #41

    Default Re: Alternative for Europe: Hungary's Viktor Orban calls for right-wing union in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Down with capitalism then? What is your alternative?
    Still looking for solutions to human nature, eh?

    Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  2. #42
    dogukan's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Alternative for Europe: Hungary's Viktor Orban calls for right-wing union in Europe

    I am not exactly a "democrat". I simply believe that identities shape over space and time, and what we create as identities has an impact for centuries. Whatever system of incentives and identities you create and let loose, people act according to that.
    I have no intention of finding a solution to human nature.
    I am trying to find ways to create healthy, cooperative identities and institutions.
    Unfortunately, change is the only thing that does not change. That doesn't mean people should stop struggling for a better world.

    What Keynes said after WWII in creating the Bretton Woods system is even more insightful today after the 2008 crisis.

    We were not aware that civilisation was a thin and precarious crust erected by the personality and the will of a very few, and only maintained by rules and conventions skilfully put across and guilefully preserved.
    J.Maynard Keynes



    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  3. #43

    Default Re: Alternative for Europe: Hungary's Viktor Orban calls for right-wing union in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Thats not what Hitler is saying.
    "In reality what distinguished Karl Marx from the millions who were affected in the same way was that, in a world already in a state of gradual decomposition, he used his keen powers of prognosis to detect the essential poisons, so as to extract them and concentrate them, with the art of a necromancer, in a solution which would bring about the rapid destruction of the independent nations on the globe. But all this was done in the service of his race."


    The tricky part is this connection. The alt-right identifies the whole left-wing in the west exactly this way.
    This is not about the wars, famines or repressions of the USSR. This is about what intention Hitler saw, and how alt-right have embraced it and brought it into mainstream right-wing today.
    ...Because this is the correct way to view the left? Every leftist regime in the world failed economically, politically and socially, with exception of those that abandoned lefitst ideas in favor of capitalism (i.e. China and Russia). You are welcome to discuss how your version of communism is perfect and just has not been tried yet, but you should probably do that in a different thread.
    By means of ever more effective methods of mind-manipulation, the democracies will change their nature; the quaint old forms -- elections, parliaments, Supreme Courts and all the rest -- will remain. The underlying substance will be a new kind of non-violent totalitarianism. All the traditional names, all the hallowed slogans will remain exactly what they were in the good old days. Democracy and freedom will be the theme of every broadcast and editorial [...]. Meanwhile the ruling oligarchy and its highly trained elite of soldiers, policemen, thought-manufacturers and mind-manipulators will quietly run the show as they see fit.
    -
    Aldous Huxley, Brave New World Revisited, 1958

  4. #44
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Alternative for Europe: Hungary's Viktor Orban calls for right-wing union in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    So...Western politicians making decisions that are vastly disapproved by public and benefit rich minority (such as mass immigration policy in Europe or American invasions of other countries in past few decades) never happened? Its not me who has to "get real" here..
    Well, take Germany. There have been elections since 'wir schaffen das" and the 'vast disapproval' has lead to the afd claiming 92 out of 709 seats. I'd like to have your explanation of those other 617 seats. Fraud? Intimidation? Brainwashing? How do you go about making those 92 seats be the 'real' voice of the people?
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  5. #45

    Default Re: Alternative for Europe: Hungary's Viktor Orban calls for right-wing union in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Well, take Germany. There have been elections since 'wir schaffen das" and the 'vast disapproval' has lead to the afd claiming 92 out of 709 seats. I'd like to have your explanation of those other 617 seats. Fraud? Intimidation? Brainwashing? How do you go about making those 92 seats be the 'real' voice of the people?
    Combination of all those mentioned things, plus the inherent flaws of representative democracy, at least in the way it was implemented in Germany.
    Bush/Obama presidencies are a good example form overseas, where both led very similar warhawk foreign policy despite the fact that public showed little interest to "spreading democracy" at taxpayer expense.
    By means of ever more effective methods of mind-manipulation, the democracies will change their nature; the quaint old forms -- elections, parliaments, Supreme Courts and all the rest -- will remain. The underlying substance will be a new kind of non-violent totalitarianism. All the traditional names, all the hallowed slogans will remain exactly what they were in the good old days. Democracy and freedom will be the theme of every broadcast and editorial [...]. Meanwhile the ruling oligarchy and its highly trained elite of soldiers, policemen, thought-manufacturers and mind-manipulators will quietly run the show as they see fit.
    -
    Aldous Huxley, Brave New World Revisited, 1958

  6. #46

    Default Re: Alternative for Europe: Hungary's Viktor Orban calls for right-wing union in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Down with capitalism then? What is your alternative?
    It's worse than capitalism.
    It's the fact that maquiavelianesque systems always end out the most efficient in the end, even if everyone hates it.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

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