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Thread: Byzantine Questions and Observations

  1. #1
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Byzantine Questions and Observations

    Playing around a bit with the Byzantine Empire. I have some questions that if answered can help me. I have three questions after I get you up to speed on my first 40 turns. Perhaps the questions and your answers may also help other members on how they can approach the first 30 or 40 turns as well. So let's make this thread a help for everyone!
     
    My approach was not to commit frenzied expansion. Sofia and Smyrna became a part of the Empire fairly direct though. Eventually Rhodes and Adana were also added, but only after the first two were developed to stone castles. Pay as you go and do not over extend. That was my idea with this short campaign. The focus was on building the trade and that meant the eventual offer of the Merchant Guild in the capital as is natural.
     
    Nicea acquired the Theolgians Guild after the appropriate improvements dus to population growth. This was also after being the only settlement to recruit priests. The settlement continued to pop out priests to threaten the Turkish lands by conversion of the faiths. A war by other means, so to speak.
     
    This selective focus on priest recuitment in Nicea and Merchant recruitment in the capital was by design. The spy line was pretty much ignored for the same reasons. I wanted the two guilds that I had offers to accept as a priority before other guilds.
     
    Oh, and to give a bit of relaxed developement at the begining, the first capital expenditure was for the Ikoners studio in the capital. That 4000 florin cost pretty much wiped out the opening surplus funds! Call that first expenditure a bit of role play detail since the Catholic priests do not really theaten the Byzantine capital until the second crusade if ever. I am not certain why, but the Islamic factions do not seem to spam as many religious agents as the Catholics do in my campaigns. Perhaps this is the result of pressure from adjacent factions since the eastern portion of the map is fairly spread out compared to the western side of the map.
     
    The Pope called for a Crusade on Jeruselem on or about turn 20. The Hungarians joined up with Istavan No other factions other than Poland are participating. The Hungarian stack of Crusading militia simply stayed in place outside of Sofia. Weird how there seems to be no dessertion from the Crusade army. I thought the other factions would suffer the same fate as the human faction when not progressing towards the Crusade target. Oh well, live and learn.
     
    Both the Hungarians and the Pope are allied with the Byzantines. I always like a marriage alliance with Hungary since their victory conditions focus on the HRE and Poland, so the Byz can protect their backs as a good ally. I am not so certain that this is how the computer thinks, but let's call it a bit of role play. The Turks are never a problem as long as the Byz take the firght to them with cavalry and wait out the sieges if the melee units favor the Turks in the beseiged settlements. In this case I have not yet begun a campaign against them though.
     
    A regular tribute of 200 florins per turn is being maintained with the Pope. Trade with all factions that can do so is a priority. So the network slowly expands to cover the Mediteranean Ocean settlements as my two diplomats move about.
     
    The above explanation should give you the substance of what my current campaign approach was trying to accomplish. Observations are, of course, welcomed. Now for the questions!
     
    1) How would you deploy the navies with this approach. Size of the squadrons and number of fleets as well as where they should patrol. Navies are not cheap to maintain and there is not a direct and immediate threat. I have two fleets of 4 ships each patroling and shuttling troops toward Adana and watching Venice. Perhaps these should have been smaller fleets to reduce maintenance. Of course, a single ship can watch as well as a large fleet, but small fleets can encourage other factions to break the peace. I also find at least three ships are needed in the beginning as a fleet to safely address the pirate single and double ships that pop up. With four ships, a merge after losses and sending the partial ship back for repairs would still maintain three ships in the fleet. I had in the past simply merged the two begining small fleets and built no more untill Venice came knocking on Byzantine shores. So my approach was differant this time.
     
    2) I usually grab Iconium and start a war with the Turks. This is in response to the scenario that Creative Assembly laid out in the campaign introduction. So in a sense this is also a bit of role play as well. Then maybe push on quickly to the Turk's capital and no more Turks as a faction. Half of the victory conditions are now completed for the short campaign leaving on Venice to be eliminated. This would usually be the quick and dirty conclusion of a short campaign with the end coming as the Byzantine Empire swallows their arch rival, Venice.
     
    By leaving the Turks to be at peace, this has caused me to rethink castle positions. Sofia, Adana, and Smyrna I believe should remain as stone castles. Rhodes and Cyprus can be converted to the city lines. But what about Corinth? It would normally be the first to reach the fortress upgrade status via natural population growth. With 40 turns of peace, Sofia is now capable as well. So should Corinth be converted or up graded to a fortress. I can see advantages of both options as the campaign continues. In total in this quiet expansion, the Byzantines have only 9 settlements. So what would you do for the castle and city line allocation with these 9 settlements?
     
    3) I notice by focusing on trade, I neglected the spy line of buildings. The first building does contribute to growth. The second one enables the recruitment of assassins. The Byzantine Empire is a bit on the edge of the chaos in Italian politics where the assassins are essential. Was ignoring this line for the first 40 turns a mistake that I will regret as the game proceeds? I know it takes a bit to groom the assassins on the easier captains as targets. Even the Cardinals are a tough target for the new assissin. Even a small portion of spys can be useful when at peace as well and their recruitment was neglected as well. If nothing else, they can be used as mobile forward watch towers to keep on eye on things.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Byzantine Questions and Observations

    There are a few things I advise.

    1) There's a mod around, that doesn't change anything except for adding Kingdoms units to the main campaign. Get it. It gives you the taste of the vanilla campaign as it should have always been and you'll have plenty of fun with Greek flamethrowers. Pronoia, Alamanoi and the rest are also enjoyable additions. I also often edit the files myself to get Kingdoms music too to have the fully enhanced experience.
    2) There's an official CA mod (retrofit) that also updates a few imperfections of the AI to Kingdoms level, if you want to get that one too go for it, it makes the game a bit easier because the AI is no longer crazy aggressive.

    Onto the strategy:
    One ironic issue is that Byzantines in the game have significantly less lands than the Komnenoi actually held, because it'd make them a powerhouse, even if you don't control Anatolia. Nonetheless, here's where you want to start. Take John, give him as many units as possible, take Smyrna (that was indeed the beginning of the reconquest), hire the mercenary galley, take Rhodes (that one the Byzantine actually held) convert it to city. On the first turn, convert Nicosia to city as well, it's enourmously rich. At the same time, you want to rush Durazzo before Sicily takes it and Sofia before Hungary does it, so you should rush there from turn 1 as well, with your guy from Thessalonika to Durazzo and using Alexios from Constantinople to take Sofia. Once taken, Durazzo is converted to castle due to its slow population growth and strategic position. If you are playing on max difficulty, Sicily will be a pain here, that's where you defend. Ally with Hungary. Create diplomats because you'll be in constant conversation with Hungary, Sicily and the Pope. Occasional gifts can keep them at bay.

    Send all your small fleet to assist John, because as soon as he's done in Rhodes, we have to fix history in the game. Venice didn't hold Crete until the 4th crusade, you are two turns of sailing from Rhodes to Iraklion. Venice very often declares war on you on harder difficulties, if they don't, you will.

    You aren't done yet. Leave a few troops to Iraklion because Venice will try to take it back, John sails to the Black Sea, because Trebisond was the Byzantine outpost of the Komnenian era and you want that one too. That's also another one you convert to city. Not done yet, because the last Byzantine outpost is Caffa, so John sails again to take that one too.

    This should be done by turn 15-20. Now you can focus your efforts on economic development and defending from Sicily. You can ignore the Turks as they are generally too spread out to become a danger soon, but eventually, they will come. If you do things correctly and quickly, once you have the core lands that the Komnenians actually held, money making shouldn't be a problem. You can send your trained merchants to the area around antioch to trade resources, though sometimes the AI gets crazy strong merchants that beat you to it.

    When you are developed and rich, you are ready for the second phase of the restoration launch a full scale invasion of the Turks. Take Adana (and convert it to city) Antioch and Aleppo. I like to play historically so I take them before taking Iconium and Caesarea. You don't have to, but they are generally the next target anyway along with the invasion of Southern Italy and the Balkans while you defend at Aleppo/Antioch against the Mongols. After that I generally lose interest. Ahahah.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; July 25, 2018 at 03:28 PM.

  3. #3
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Byzantine Questions and Observations

    The secret playing Romans (Byzantines) is to chose which castles you will transform to cities (Rhodes for example).
    War needs 3 things. Money, Money and Money. Choosing carefully strategic locations to keep them as castles and transforming the rest into cities you will access to the most powerfull economy in game.
    The rest will come easily while your armies will start capturing settleents. But the secret is to win some Heroic battles. Chose your battle ground carefully , lure 2-3 enemy armies in to it , win and the road is open.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  4. #4
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Byzantine Questions and Observations

    Basil, I used to have retrofit on a computer. I never replaced it as the computers aged and otherwise died. I have Lands to Conquer which seems to be another version of Retrofit. The starting positions in the early campaign seem to be more what you describe as the actual Byzantine positions. I played the short campaign through all the factions using mostly auto resolve for the battles. This was years ago. I now try to resolve all or nearly all on the battle map. I may head back to LtoC and see. As I remember, I was poorer than dirt and in fear of Sicilian and Turkish continuations of the existing at war status. I think the Pope's relations dropped since that small chapel in Naples gets in the way of an orthodox church line, not that good relations are really possible while at war in any case. A bit different from the basic game with all factions starting at peace.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Byzantine Questions and Observations

    edit:

    I gave a quick look to lands to conquer, I'd abandon Italy honestly, in the early game. Given you have roughly the territory I described with, you want to look at where Sicily generally lands, use those as castles, most of the rest as cities while you start pushing back the Turks.

    The AI, in the vanilla game was never particularly able to pull out the best troops of each factions, while it usually spammed militia with a good units in the mix. If that hasn't changed, Turks shouldn't be a problem.

    Ideally, you want to reach the triad of As, Aleppo, Adana and Antioch, asap, because that's your defensive stand against the Mongols, who also seem to love taking Antioch as their capital. You have bridges, a good fortifiable fortress in Aleppo and if you have the Greek flamethrowers it should be doable with rather limited efforts. No kind of 2-3 silver chevron Mongol elite troop can resist medieval wmds.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; July 28, 2018 at 07:58 AM.

  6. #6
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Byzantine Questions and Observations

    I might do just as you suggest. The abandonment of Naples hurts, but it might be best to not attempt a complete rewrite of history on the first turn. That might also be a key to peace with Sicily and not crippling the relations with the Pope by destroying the Catholic small church. When I first played this years ago, I thought the church was simply an error. But maybe not!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Byzantine Questions and Observations

    Is the map the same of vanilla or there are additional cities?

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    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Byzantine Questions and Observations

    I do not believe there are any map changes. All the things that are minor irritants seem to still be there.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Byzantine Questions and Observations

    Does Lands to Conquer have Kingdoms units or it reshapes the roster completely?

  10. #10
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Byzantine Questions and Observations

    Lands to Conquer is listed as a Kingdoms hosted modification. I think it is pretty much an update of the
    Retrofit Mod 1.0 - Downloads - Total War Center Forums and is by Lusted though I am certain there are others that get credit as well. This does get back to the first Medieval with the three eras. For what it is worth, I do not think that even boiling oil is a part of this modification. I am assuming that this includes a rebalanced Kingdoms roster just as in Retrofit.

    No for the problems and observation of my first few turns on Early, Hard, Hard settings!
    Early in the campaign. Venice has take Milan. I can only hope Venice has earned the wrath of Rome. On turn two the Byzantines were offered a very good adoption candidate to help with the administrative duties in Corinth as Prince John is off to fight the Turks. I attached a picture of his potential.  
     
    Recruited a diplomat in Naples, but there seems no potential for peace with Sicily even if the Naples settlement is offered. The Byzantines cannot afford tribute (the loss of the Naples income would be enough of a hurt. So I am not on plan 'B'. Three of the Byzantine ships are blockading Palermo but I wonder if they are even getting any trade income from the port? Constantinople is getting nothing for trade income by sea even though Crete does have port facilities. My memory of how this works in LtoC is blank on this. (It could also be my memory on this is blank period and not just with this mod. ) If any member has a clue, I would be really and truly grateful. 
     
    My diplomat did get trade rights with Rome for a small but regular tribute of 10 turns. Milan was more generous since I could offer an alliance in exchange for 1100 florins over 4 turns. Of course this dropped my popularity with Venice in exchange for a happier Milan.

    Sicily also is taking a piece out of Milan. I can only hope some wise fool wants to go all in on a war with either Venice or Sicily. I had forgotten how quickly LtoC goes into a total war frenzy since some factions start out at war. (I am playing with Hard battle and campaign 'options'.) 
     
    If my princess can find Poland, this may also be a good help for the treasury. Or she may attract an attractive spouse from the Council with her 4 of 10 charm points (about as much as one can expect form a princess or so the computer states) 
     
    I am spending all the available florins, but I am probably misspending most of them since I do not have a clue on how to use the ports for trade in this modification. Wooden castles will get converted to the town line as money is available, but the priority is getting some archers and cavalry out of the castle at Corinth while the eastern forces gather to take on the Turks. 
     
    This may leave some settlements vulnerable when the rebels start popping up though. There is only so much that can be done with so little. I am thankful for the starting second tier archers with their long range and the abundance of low stockade defenses in the beginning years. Without them, I do not know if Byzantine would have a chance. Of course for every wooden castle being converted, I am gains lower wall defenses. I do not know if this will be a problem. The humans players could rip through these converted settlements. The computer is less capable of doing that, I hope.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Byzantine Questions and Observations

    With or without the extra units, the Byz are one of the best in the early game. You have very early access to Trebisond Archers, which are stronger than anything anyone can field before Fortresses can be upgraded, and you have also early access to Vardariotai, which stats at hand, are the best horse archers in the game, except for the Mongols heavy. Your spearmen are mediocre, the heavy infantry is alright, if you can get flamethrowers you'll have fun against the Mongols later.

    Map wise, I'd simply evacuate Naples, disband whatever troops you have there and let the Sicilians walk in. The diplomat on the first turn is a good idea to get an early chat with the rest of Italy. Any money saved can be used elsewhere. This is somewhat historically consistent with the evacuation of Bari, the last Byzantine outpost in Southern Italy. Your chokepoint is Durazzo. Keep in mind this doesn't grow fast, thus it's better used as a castle rather than as a city. It's where you want to amass troops while you develop the infrastructure before raising the pressure on the Turks. I think it'd be a major mistake to expand before you have developed your own economy, which has a strong potential.

    Keep also in mind that the AI never lands in Cyprus, so you can remove the garrison and develop it as a city, again very rich one, it usually booms one you control Antioch and Adana with commerce.

  12. #12
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Byzantine Questions and Observations

    Oh my mistake regarding boiling oil - it is in Retrofit and I have not seen it yet in LtoC. I assume it is there as well.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Byzantine Questions and Observations

    Played around a bit with the LtoC last night. It seems that there is a small trade effect by constructing a port and that is not reflected in the trade by sea reporting. The big change comes with the warehouse and that affects the trade by sea stats.

  14. #14
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Byzantine Questions and Observations

    I am afraid that everything you learned about Roman (Byzantine) tactics nd stradegies you will have to forget them when you will encounter your enemies in TGC mod by this Christmass.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


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