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Thread: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

  1. #41

    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Come on, sumskilz...the Jewish government is against a two states solution. Trump is against a two states solution. Donald Trump says US not committed to two-state Israel-Palestine
    Nearly half of Jewish Israelis want to expel Arabs, period.
    The government isn't entirely Jewish, neither is the ruling coalition. Part of the ruling coalition is pro-two state solution, part of the ruling coalition is anti-two state solution, and part would support the a two state solution depending on the particular terms. The poll you were referring to indicates that 48% of Israeli Jews support expelling or transferring Arab citizens. As I said, transfer usually refers the transfer of predominately Arab areas to a future Palestinian state, while some Israelis support expelling Arabs who plot or commit terrorist attacks. The latter is not even particularly unreasonable, anyone willing to randomly kill innocent Israeli civilians for Palestinian nationalist motives is sort of asking to live in Palestine. You won't find any political party with members in the Knesset calling for a general expulsion of Arab citizens. That was part of Kach's platform, a party which never held more than one seat and is now banned in Israel as a terrorist organization. To assume the results of the poll mean what you're implying they mean is to assume without sufficient evidence the position which puts Israeli Jews in the most negative light, a way of thinking that is otherwise known as prejudice.

    As of earlier this year, 46% of Israeli Jews support the two state solution which almost exactly mirrors the 47% of Palestinians who support the two state solution. Although the PA has never supported a two state solution that doesn't involve right of return, so that means they actually support an Arab state plus an end to Israel as a Jewish state, otherwise known as the two step solution. Polls indicate that a significant number of Palestinians might accept financial compensation in lieu of full right of return, but I suspect any Palestinian leader who agreed to that compromise would likely be assassinated by a hardliner. Yisrael Beiteinu, one of the right wing parties in the coalition, are strong supporters of the two state solution - Lieberman Plan.

    I'm not sure why the US government should be expected to be committed to a plan that isn't supported by a majority on either side.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The problem is the new legislation that encourages the creation of communities segregated by nationality or religion. Most modern societies do not officially practice racial or religious segregation in isolated communities.
    No it doesn't, those are the only criteria which can not be legally used in the selection processes employed by communal villages. That's the reason it was proposed in the first place, because the courts banned it, but it never made it into the final bill. The question is why can a communal village consisting entirely of Marxists be able to exclude anyone who is not a Marxist, while a communal village consisting entirely of Orthodox Jews can't exclude anyone who is not Orthodox. If I had to solve the issue, I'd probably completely privatize the properties so that the government is not involved. Currently, most land ownership in Israel is more like leasing from the government. People own their houses or (most often) apartments outright, but only own rights to the land it sits on. Although there are reasons this is the way it is. The population to land ratio means the government needs to maintain some control over its use.

    In any case, it doesn't matter much since it didn't make it into the bill. It's sort of telling that the only proposal that would have made a tangible legal difference was stricken from the bill before the vote.

    You don't really mean "most modern societies" though, it's done all over the Middle East. Seems like this is more of you considering Middle Easterners "medieval" because they don't conform to Western European cultural standards. What you really mean is most Western societies. Of course part of that is because most Western societies aren't actually multicultural, as they become more multicultural, especially incorporating Middle Easterners, they're starting to see segregated religious and ethnoreligious communities forming. That's why the Israeli secular courts don't like it, their system is ideologically Western, much more so than large segments of the population. Despite Ashkenazi influence, Israel is an Ottoman successor state, aspects of the millet system remain alive and well. There is however a contrast between urban and rural areas, urban areas tend to be a bit more mixed.
    Last edited by sumskilz; July 29, 2018 at 07:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  2. #42
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    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    .... Despite Ashkenazi influence, Israel is an Ottoman successor state, aspects of the millet system remain alive and well. ...
    This is why I study history, for the juicy weirdness of the tidbits. Try explaining that modern Israel is a partial successor to the House of Osman (and to my mind a certain Trojan establishment in Lazio), more so than the houses of Jesse or Maccabee and you'll get blank looks but there it is. Considering modern Israel was founded by grim pragmatic socialists you could even say it fulfils the prophecies of Marx more than those of Moses, but that might be pushing the point.

    Can't rep for several sensible and informative posts here, "I must spread some reputation around first".
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  3. #43

    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?



    It seems that israel has always been that way , and that this new ruling just justifies what has been going on for years....Its just with the new right wing Israeli government they can now be open about it....[another one of trumps good friends perhaps? ]
    "War is the continuation of politics by other means." - Carl von Clausewitz


  4. #44

    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    This is why I study history, for the juicy weirdness of the tidbits. Try explaining that modern Israel is a partial successor to the House of Osman (and to my mind a certain Trojan establishment in Lazio), more so than the houses of Jesse or Maccabee and you'll get blank looks but there it is. Considering modern Israel was founded by grim pragmatic socialists you could even say it fulfils the prophecies of Marx more than those of Moses, but that might be pushing the point.
    Another example, land in Israel is measured in dunams. Dunam being a loan word from Turkish - dönüm, vowels shifted to conform to Hebrew patterns. Arabic has the same loan word, at least in formerly Ottoman regions. The Turkish word is a literal translation of the Medieval Greek strémma, both based on the verb "to turn" in their respective languages, indicating the amount of land that can be tilled in one day by an ox. Apparently they had fairly standardized oxen back in the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinbob123 View Post
    It seems that israel has always been that way , and that this new ruling just justifies what has been going on for years....Its just with the new right wing Israeli government they can now be open about it....[another one of trumps good friends perhaps? ]
    Chomsky claims 90% of settlements are reserved for Jews. He is referring to communal villages, which he admits aren't legally allowed to discriminate based on nationality or religion, but continues talking as if he hadn't. I don't know if that 90% number is accurate, but I do know that the average communal village has about 700 people, and that out of about 8,547,000 people in Israel, only 84,800 live in communal villages. So he keeps throwing the number 90% around when talking about less than 1% of the housing, which he admits are legally not allowed to exclude anyone for not being a Jew anyway. In fact, these communal villages are mostly Jewish, but it's not Arabs who are regularly applying to live in them and being rejected, it's Jews.

    In 2015, Israel established a new Druze town with a capacity for a population of 10,000 on the public land Chomsky said is reserved for Jews.
    Last edited by sumskilz; July 30, 2018 at 03:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  5. #45
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    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    The Druze are a fascinating survival, not as weird as the Yazidi i guess but how they managed to survive all these centuries I will never know. I imagine one day they will carve a homeland in the Levant and be subject to imprecations about their intolerance too.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Another example, land in Israel is measured in dunams. Dunam being a loan word from Turkish - dönüm, vowels shifted to conform to Hebrew patterns. Arabic has the same loan word, at least in formerly Ottoman regions. The Turkish word is a literal translation of the Medieval Greek strémma, both based on the verb "to turn" in their respective languages, indicating the amount of land that can be tilled in one day by an ox. Apparently they had fairly standardized oxen back in the day..
    I take it from this you agree Canaan should be ruled from Skopje?

    There's a persistence in land allotments that defies belief sometimes. IIRC there's plots in Kent that follow middle bronze age wall lines, unbroken by ploughing: that is to say the plot sizes remained constant for c. 3000 years. I suppose its more of a curiosity than anything, but still...

    The more I think about it the more it sounds like a doctoral thesis: The Socialist Porte: Israel as a post-Ottoman successor state, comparisons and contrasts with Hashemite, Wahhabist and Baathist alternatives to the millet system. I'm guessing all three alternatives adopted a simplified and less tolerant approach to dhimmi?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  6. #46

    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Speaking of apartheid...

    https://gogetfunding.com/amal-mraad-operation-fund/

    On 29 July 2018, our 73 year old Palestinian neighbor, Amal Mrad, was found on the floor of her house in Beirut, Lebanon, suffering from a ruptured aneurism. Her only daughter took her to the hospital where Amal was told that her condition is life threatening and that she needs to undergo an operation as soon as possible. Since she is a Palestinian refugee living in Lebanon and married to a Syrian, she does not get the benefits of health insurance from the Lebanese government. She went to UNRWA for help, an organization for Palestinian refugees, but since their funding got cut, they are unable to cover the whole cost of the operation. We need $15,000 to cover her hospital and operation fees and save her life. We've contacted other organizations in Lebanon, but nobody has been willing to help and time is running out. If everyone could donate at least $1 or at least spread this campaign, it would be greatly appreciated. These funds will go directly to the operation. thank you in advance.
    If our friends on the Left oppose Israel only due to its treatment of the Palestinians, then Where Is The Outrage at Arab Apartheid?


    Mohammed Nabil Taha, an 11-year-old Palestinian boy, died this week at the entrance to a Lebanese hospital after doctors refused to help him because his family could not afford to pay for medical treatment.

    The tragic case of Taha highlights the plight of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who live in impoverished refugee camps in Lebanon and who are the victims of an Apartheid system that denies them access to work, education and medical care.

    Ironically, the boy's death at the entrance to the hospital coincided with Israel Apartheid Week, a festival of hatred and incitement organized by anti-Israel activists on university campuses in the US, Canada and other countries.

    It is highly unlikely that the folks behind the festival have heard about the case of Taha. Judging from past experiences, it is also highly unlikely that they would publicize the case after they heard about it.

    Why should anyone care about a Palestinian boy who is denied medical treatment by an Arab hospital? This is a story that does not have an anti-Israel angle to it...

    Last year alone, some 180,000 Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza Strip entered Israel to receive medical treatment. Many were treated despite the fact that they did not have enough money to cover the bill. In Israel, even a suicide bomber who is -- only! -- wounded while trying to kill Jews is entitled to the finest medical treatment. And there have been many instances where Palestinians who were injured in attacks on Israel later ended up in some of Israel's best hospitals.

    Lebanon, by the way, is not the only Arab country that officially applies Apartheid laws against Palestinians, denying them the right to receive proper medical treatment and own property.

    Just last week it was announced that a medical center in Jordan has decided to stop treating Palestinian cancer patients because the Palestinian Authority has failed to pay its debts to the center.

    Other Arab countries have also been giving the Palestinians a very hard time when it comes to receiving medical treatment.

    It is disgraceful that while Israel admits Palestinian patients to its hospitals, Arab hospitals are denying them medical treatment for various reasons, including money. But then one is reminded that Arab dictators do not care about their own people, so why should they pay attention to an 11-year-old boy who is dying at the entrance to a hospital because his father was not carrying $1,500?

    But as the death took place in an Arab country – and as the victim is an Arab – why should anyone care about him? Where is the outcry against Arab Apartheid?
    Best ever description of the Mudpit.

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    This is what radicalization looks like, when someone dwells rather too long in the darkest recesses of online bigotry and feels the need to project this filth on others as if they were the honeyed words of some messiah guru or mahdhi.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    Speaking of apartheid...

    https://gogetfunding.com/amal-mraad-operation-fund/



    If our friends on the Left oppose Israel only due to its treatment of the Palestinians, then Where Is The Outrage at Arab Apartheid?
    What's the problem? These nations are just copying the American model. These stories make me love the NHS more and more.

  8. #48
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    I think Israel has enough enemies outside its territory without creating new ones inside it like the Druze, who have been noted for their historic loyalty to the State including through military service,
    Colonialism 1600AD - 2016 Modding Awards for "Compilations and Overhauls".



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  9. #49
    Henry of Grosmont's Avatar Clockwork Angel
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    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geronimo2006 View Post
    I think Israel has enough enemies outside its territory without creating new ones inside it like the Druze, who have been noted for their historic loyalty to the State including through military service,
    I fully agree with this notion and expect Israel to, at least, make an exception soon.

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