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Thread: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

  1. #61

    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    There are a number of countries in the world where existant geo-political difficulties make for an aggressive, xenophobic or ethno-chauvanistic, and a "real-politik" oriented governmental/military/social mindset. Israel is one such country (other examples include Pakistan and Russia). A community oriented ethnic/cultural/religious basis of national identity is seen as the "correct" basis of the nation, as it encourages strength and effectiveness against "enemies", both without and within. To support this orthodoxy, these countries need to actively promote it and stand up for it, and they are constantly looking for foreign patrons who will support them for their own reasons. For Israel, this is the US. In exchange for providing the US a spear-head into the Middle-East, Israel receives the ability to manage it's domestic efforts as it sees fit while being able to avoid international isolation. Thus it has followed an "apartheid" policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians since at least 1967, and has been regularly "formalising" this policy bit by bit every chance it gets. Having a patron as strong as the US is a mixed blessing however, always leaving the possibility of a quick collapse if the patronage (for whatever reason) is withdrawn. Paradoxically, this motivates the client (in this case Israel) to achieve it's end goals quickly, and while the patronage lasts. This leads to more tension, and in some cases, actively leads to the collapse of the patron-client relationship (Pakistan and the US are a good example), and this fear in turn ratchets up the client states efforts to create it's utopic "homeland" before the sands run out. In the age of Trump, where support for Israel is at never before seen highs in the US, Israel is going to try and make more and more of it's occupation and discrimination "official". Yet the problem of occupation is not to do with it's recognition by great powers as legitimate, but by the amount of support for the occupier by the occupied. When the latter exists (like for Russia in the Crimea), "legitimate" recognition is an irrelevance, but when occupied people actively resist, even centuries of domination are not enough to create peace. The only way becomes the way of genocide, something the jews know a thing or two about. So yes, Israel is an apartheid state, and has been one in some form or another since it's inception, the "official-ness" of it's policies are simply reflections of it's current diplomatic advantages. And yet, inevitably, it will, one way or another, not always be an apartheid state. Depending on the way that happens, it might be a great day for humanity (ala South Africa), or not (a Palestinian holocaust, WW3).

  2. #62

    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinbob123 View Post


    It seems that israel has always been that way , and that this new ruling just justifies what has been going on for years....Its just with the new right wing Israeli government they can now be open about it....[another one of trumps good friends perhaps? ]
    Almost missed this. Absolutely on point. One of the things we're not supposed to talk about. Israel was a historical mistake and was always a racist and nationalist project.

  3. #63
    Geleco's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Quote Originally Posted by anant View Post
    There are a number of countries in the world where existant geo-political difficulties make for an aggressive, xenophobic or ethno-chauvanistic, and a "real-politik" oriented governmental/military/social mindset. Israel is one such country (other examples include Pakistan and Russia). A community oriented ethnic/cultural/religious basis of national identity is seen as the "correct" basis of the nation, as it encourages strength and effectiveness against "enemies", both without and within. To support this orthodoxy, these countries need to actively promote it and stand up for it, and they are constantly looking for foreign patrons who will support them for their own reasons. For Israel, this is the US. In exchange for providing the US a spear-head into the Middle-East, Israel receives the ability to manage it's domestic efforts as it sees fit while being able to avoid international isolation. Thus it has followed an "apartheid" policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians since at least 1967, and has been regularly "formalising" this policy bit by bit every chance it gets. Having a patron as strong as the US is a mixed blessing however, always leaving the possibility of a quick collapse if the patronage (for whatever reason) is withdrawn. Paradoxically, this motivates the client (in this case Israel) to achieve it's end goals quickly, and while the patronage lasts. This leads to more tension, and in some cases, actively leads to the collapse of the patron-client relationship (Pakistan and the US are a good example), and this fear in turn ratchets up the client states efforts to create it's utopic "homeland" before the sands run out. In the age of Trump, where support for Israel is at never before seen highs in the US, Israel is going to try and make more and more of it's occupation and discrimination "official". Yet the problem of occupation is not to do with it's recognition by great powers as legitimate, but by the amount of support for the occupier by the occupied. When the latter exists (like for Russia in the Crimea), "legitimate" recognition is an irrelevance, but when occupied people actively resist, even centuries of domination are not enough to create peace. The only way becomes the way of genocide, something the jews know a thing or two about. So yes, Israel is an apartheid state, and has been one in some form or another since it's inception, the "official-ness" of it's policies are simply reflections of it's current diplomatic advantages. And yet, inevitably, it will, one way or another, not always be an apartheid state. Depending on the way that happens, it might be a great day for humanity (ala South Africa), or not (a Palestinian holocaust, WW3).
    The only great day for humanity will be the one when people stop killing each other over abstract concepts.

    The destruction of Israel (not Jews, mind you) and every other state in the world is necessary to achieve this, and only then will it happen. Those agitating for a Palestinian state don't see this and claim it is unfeasible, or simply laugh. To them I say, if the foundation is rotten you don't keep building on it, you tear the whole damn thing down and start over.

    The worst part is that when a Galilean preacher had the sight to point this out 2000 years ago, people killed him and turned his message into a mockery.
    Last edited by Geleco; September 21, 2018 at 09:33 PM.
    What is an opinion? It is a flattened idea, an idea that has been made uniform in order to make it acceptable to the largest number of people. Opinions are massified ideas. It is important for power that these opinions be maintained because it is through opinion, the control of opinion, that they obtain given results, not least the mechanisms of propaganda and electoral procedures through the use of the media. The formation of new power elites comes not from ideas but from opinions.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    The only great day for humanity will be the one when people stop killing each other over abstract concepts.

    The destruction of Israel (not Jews, mind you) and every other state in the world is necessary to achieve this, and only then will it happen.
    And then we’ll devolve to tribalism, and kill eachother over booty and territory.
    Under the patronage of Pontifex Maximus

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post
    I don't understand, clearly if white people simply made better choices to treat others as their equal there wouldn't be all of this justified pushback.

  5. #65
    Geleco's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    I suppose if you believe that, you and the rest of humanity can have your world full of tyranny. Have fun.
    What is an opinion? It is a flattened idea, an idea that has been made uniform in order to make it acceptable to the largest number of people. Opinions are massified ideas. It is important for power that these opinions be maintained because it is through opinion, the control of opinion, that they obtain given results, not least the mechanisms of propaganda and electoral procedures through the use of the media. The formation of new power elites comes not from ideas but from opinions.

  6. #66
    Papay's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Quote Originally Posted by anant View Post
    There are a number of countries in the world where existant geo-political difficulties make for an aggressive, xenophobic or ethno-chauvanistic, and a "real-politik" oriented governmental/military/social mindset. Israel is one such country (other examples include Pakistan and Russia). A community oriented ethnic/cultural/religious basis of national identity is seen as the "correct" basis of the nation, as it encourages strength and effectiveness against "enemies", both without and within. To support this orthodoxy, these countries need to actively promote it and stand up for it, and they are constantly looking for foreign patrons who will support them for their own reasons. For Israel, this is the US. In exchange for providing the US a spear-head into the Middle-East, Israel receives the ability to manage it's domestic efforts as it sees fit while being able to avoid international isolation. Thus it has followed an "apartheid" policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians since at least 1967, and has been regularly "formalising" this policy bit by bit every chance it gets. Having a patron as strong as the US is a mixed blessing however, always leaving the possibility of a quick collapse if the patronage (for whatever reason) is withdrawn. Paradoxically, this motivates the client (in this case Israel) to achieve it's end goals quickly, and while the patronage lasts. This leads to more tension, and in some cases, actively leads to the collapse of the patron-client relationship (Pakistan and the US are a good example), and this fear in turn ratchets up the client states efforts to create it's utopic "homeland" before the sands run out. In the age of Trump, where support for Israel is at never before seen highs in the US, Israel is going to try and make more and more of it's occupation and discrimination "official". Yet the problem of occupation is not to do with it's recognition by great powers as legitimate, but by the amount of support for the occupier by the occupied. When the latter exists (like for Russia in the Crimea), "legitimate" recognition is an irrelevance, but when occupied people actively resist, even centuries of domination are not enough to create peace. The only way becomes the way of genocide, something the jews know a thing or two about. So yes, Israel is an apartheid state, and has been one in some form or another since it's inception, the "official-ness" of it's policies are simply reflections of it's current diplomatic advantages. And yet, inevitably, it will, one way or another, not always be an apartheid state. Depending on the way that happens, it might be a great day for humanity (ala South Africa), or not (a Palestinian holocaust, WW3).
    Both Russia and Pakistan have millions of refugees and immigrants in their countries

  7. #67

    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Both Russia and Pakistan have millions of refugees and immigrants in their countries
    your point being?

  8. #68

    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geleco View Post
    The only great day for humanity will be the one when people stop killing each other over abstract concepts.

    The destruction of Israel (not Jews, mind you) and every other state in the world is necessary to achieve this, and only then will it happen. Those agitating for a Palestinian state don't see this and claim it is unfeasible, or simply laugh. To them I say, if the foundation is rotten you don't keep building on it, you tear the whole damn thing down and start over.

    The worst part is that when a Galilean preacher had the sight to point this out 2000 years ago, people killed him and turned his message into a mockery.
    Quote Originally Posted by Geleco View Post
    I suppose if you believe that, you and the rest of humanity can have your world full of tyranny. Have fun.
    I'm sorry, you are simply naive. People rarely, if ever kill each other over abstract concepts.
    States also exist for the simple reason that people are stronger in organised groups than they are on their own.
    The rotten foundation that needs to be torn down isn't basic human nature, since that's a fight that will always inevitably be lost, but that against naivity.
    Anarchism does not work and is bad. And your reference to Jesus is also ridiculous since you obviously have no idea as to what he was saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by anant View Post
    There are a number of countries in the world where existant geo-political difficulties make for an aggressive, xenophobic or ethno-chauvanistic, and a "real-politik" oriented governmental/military/social mindset. Israel is one such country (other examples include Pakistan and Russia). A community oriented ethnic/cultural/religious basis of national identity is seen as the "correct" basis of the nation, as it encourages strength and effectiveness against "enemies", both without and within. To support this orthodoxy, these countries need to actively promote it and stand up for it, and they are constantly looking for foreign patrons who will support them for their own reasons. For Israel, this is the US. In exchange for providing the US a spear-head into the Middle-East, Israel receives the ability to manage it's domestic efforts as it sees fit while being able to avoid international isolation. Thus it has followed an "apartheid" policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians since at least 1967, and has been regularly "formalising" this policy bit by bit every chance it gets. Having a patron as strong as the US is a mixed blessing however, always leaving the possibility of a quick collapse if the patronage (for whatever reason) is withdrawn. Paradoxically, this motivates the client (in this case Israel) to achieve it's end goals quickly, and while the patronage lasts. This leads to more tension, and in some cases, actively leads to the collapse of the patron-client relationship (Pakistan and the US are a good example), and this fear in turn ratchets up the client states efforts to create it's utopic "homeland" before the sands run out. In the age of Trump, where support for Israel is at never before seen highs in the US, Israel is going to try and make more and more of it's occupation and discrimination "official". Yet the problem of occupation is not to do with it's recognition by great powers as legitimate, but by the amount of support for the occupier by the occupied. When the latter exists (like for Russia in the Crimea), "legitimate" recognition is an irrelevance, but when occupied people actively resist, even centuries of domination are not enough to create peace. The only way becomes the way of genocide, something the jews know a thing or two about. So yes, Israel is an apartheid state, and has been one in some form or another since it's inception, the "official-ness" of it's policies are simply reflections of it's current diplomatic advantages. And yet, inevitably, it will, one way or another, not always be an apartheid state. Depending on the way that happens, it might be a great day for humanity (ala South Africa), or not (a Palestinian holocaust, WW3).
    I'm sorry, but all 3 countries are vastly different to each other.
    1) Russia is a multiethnic state, and has been so since forever. It is also probably the state in the world which takes the best care of its minorities and the conservation of their cultural heritage, which is why the country with a mere 140 mil people has more official languages than the entire European Union. People who keep spouting the lie of an "aggressive, xenophobic or ethno-chauvenistic governmental/military/social mindset" are talking BS with 0 idea of what they are talking about. Plain and simple. I know I shouldn't react this strong but it is really tiresome hearing the same russophobic lines again and again with no basis in facts whatsoever.
    2) Pakistan features also several ethnicities, but the reason for the islamic radicalism there has a lot, if not everything to do with the conflict with India. I'm not saying this is Indias fault, I'm saying the religion has been the main issue why Pakistan became its own state in the first place.
    3) The conflict in Israel on the other hand is ethnoreligious, and therefore has almost nothing to do with the countries above. Nor do any of the problems Israel faces with it's neighbours have any similarities with those faced by the other two countries.
    Why hasn't the decades old crisis not been solved yet? Because there's zero interest in it. Clausewitz teaches us that war is the mere continuation of politics by other means. A conflict therefore can only end once the parties have returned to diplomacy. In the case of Israel vs Palestine, Israel has 3 options:
    A) A two-state-solution, which it has 0 interest in, since that'd mean giving up on large swathes of land they want to keep.
    B) A decidedly multiethnic one-state-solution, that decidedly embraces the union of two peoples and even more religions as the core of its identity. But again, Israel does not want that, since they'd at the very least lose the exclusivity they've so far enjoyed, and would have to fear they'd turn into another Lebanon or even be outbirthed and outnumbered by the Arabs.

    So they went with C), which means they have formally embodied their Apartheid status in the constitution, and told both other options to go .... themselves.
    With their total dominance on any battlefield they do not need a political solution, and their continuous land grabs is solving the problem anyway, though in baby-steps.
    It also gives them access to a large amount of cheap workers with no rights.

    The reason they formalised it now, even though this has been their de facto policy for decades, is fairly obvious as well. It has all to do with the current leadership in the US as well as their alliance with Saudi-Arabia and the vacuum in Syria, which is an opportunity no sane politician would let slip.

    "Realpolitik" btw. is something every state does, and should do, otherwise the government is doing a bad job, like the Norwegians who just now admitted they had no idea why they bombed Libya, but just went along with the cool guys (assuming this is true and not the embarrassing but still better alibi to a far more cynical policy).
    Last edited by Cookiegod; September 23, 2018 at 08:51 AM.

  9. #69
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    people dont kill it each other abstract concepts? sure, there are always underlying issues, but wars have been fought over, race, religion and ideology in general.

    states in the modern sense arent the only organised groups. there are supernationals, and just assuming hierarchical systems are "natural" is accepting bogus science.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Ideologies, religion, etc. There is hardly any war where they have been the actual reason, and not just the excuse.

    Supernationals? Care to explain?

  11. #71

    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    A) A two-state-solution, which it has 0 interest in, since that'd mean giving up on large swathes of land they want to keep.
    The only caveat being the land comes with a large hostile population who the Israelis have an interest in separating themselves from. Because of this, there is no unified Israeli policy regarding what to do with the West Bank. Even within the current ruling coalition, there is a party who are decidedly in favor of the two state solution (Yisrael Beiteinu) and a party who openly calls for annexing Area C (Bayit Yehudi). Most of the opposition favor the two state solution. This reflects their constituencies preferences fairly well.

    At last count, 46% of Israeli Jews favor the two state solution. That is about the same number as the 47% of Palestinians who support it. Although this support shouldn’t be misunderstood as broad agreement between almost half of each of the respective populations. Those who support the two state solution on each side generally conceive of it in practical terms which are entirely unacceptable to the other side. Among Israelis, the proposed terms include a number of stipulations and territorial concessions meant to insure Israeli security, terms that don’t leave much room for a viable Palestinian state. Whereas the Palestinians call for terms which set the stage for the eventual destruction of Israel as a Jewish state, most likely via violent means.

    The number of Israeli Jews who supported the two state solution used to be much higher. Probably more than 46% still support it in principle, but oppose it in practice practice due to the belief that it won't result in anything other than more violent conflict with the Israelis put in a much less advantageous position. The reality is that both sides don’t really believe anything will come of negotiations, but feel obligated to give them lip service or go through the motions for the purpose of presenting themselves to the world as working toward peace.

    To many (almost certainly most) Palestinians, the land Tel Aviv is built on is just as much Palestine as Hebron is. In fact, when the PLO was formed they didn’t claim the West Bank and Gaza as their homeland, only the area which is now internationally recognized as Israel. Hamas is explicit in their demand for the “liberation” of all that they consider to be historical Palestine. Hamas is ideologically obligated to this goal, and even if they were to shift for pragmatic reasons, this would simply compromise their legitimacy in the eyes of their supporters. Israelis are much less ideologically attached to the current Palestinian territories, to Gaza not at all, but there is a significant enough minority who are to cause a problem. It’s unlikely that any Israeli government would be willing to violently evict thousands of Jews from the West Bank, which is what it would take.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    It also gives them access to a large amount of cheap workers with no rights.
    Because of the security risk, Israelis rarely employ Palestinians from the territories. Currently, the number of Palestinians with work permits is something like 100,000 out of a total population of about 4.6 million. Those who can pass the background checks appear to mostly be Christians or politically disinterested men over the age of 40, probably women as well, but they rarely apply as far as I know. For inexpensive labor, Israelis tend to hire Southeast Asians and Filipinos who arrive on temporary work visas, alongside Eritreans and Sudanese who arrived illegally.

    I recently posted the following regarding security concerns in another thread, but it's relevant to the discussion here:

    The issue isn't currently existential threats from belligerent nations, it's that a Palestinian state based on the green line as a border would put nearly the entirety of Israel's civilian population in range of small arms and light weapons fire with a perfect line of sight for their attackers, likewise for the entirety of Israel's north to south transportation infrastructure, its only international airport and most of its Mediterranean ports. There are literally hundreds of attacks every month as it is, but under the conditions of the occupation, it's mostly limited to knives, firebombs, and the occasional homemade Carl Gustav style submachine gun. Most of Gaza borders uninhabited or lightly inhabited areas, and it's not a rocky high ground overlooking Israel. A similar situation as to what regularly occurs in Gaza if it happened in the West Bank, would completely paralyze the Israeli economy, potentially lead to extensive Israeli civilian casualties and certainly would lead to extensive Palestinian causalities as the IDF would be obligated to immediately reoccupy the territory, returning the entire situation to square one.

    That said, potential external threats from belligerent nations are only one Islamist coup away at any given point in time.
    Last edited by sumskilz; September 25, 2018 at 03:23 AM. Reason: elaborated on a few points
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  12. #72

    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Jews and arabs hate each others. It would be quite stupid to put them both in the same nation. Unless you want to see them fight

  13. #73
    Praepositus
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    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Quote Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina View Post
    people dont kill it each other abstract concepts? sure, there are always underlying issues, but wars have been fought over, race, religion and ideology in general...
    Sorry missed this one, its a very interesting point. I don'yt have aclear view on this mater, but I think its worth talking it over.

    I recently glanced at a book about radicalisation in the Afghan army, especially Afghans killing US and other instructors (but also massacring their comrades). Usually it was explained that the person had been radicalised and steps were taken to isolate recruits from being "contaminated, as if ideas were infectious.

    The author's point seemed to be that in every investigated case there was a personal or other non-ideological element (one recruit had been disciplined, another was in debt etc etc, usually there was a prosaic element and sometimes they spoke and acted as if "radicalised" without actual contact with a "radicalising agent"). The author speculated about the degree to which we clothe basic drives like the desire for wealth and status in lofty theoretical livery.

    A few similar examples sprang to my mind at once (I'm sure we could all riff a bunch): the sponsoring of suicide bombers among Palestinians by outside powers. The acquisition of private land by settlers in the name of Zionism. Corporations selling guns sponsoring gun rights movements. Popular "progressive liberal" parties defying the will of the people and spying on them. Its hard not to see petty self-service in even the noblest of causes.

    I doubt religion has been the sole reason for the majority of people in the majority of religious wars, but i'm a quibbler and am probably basing that statement on nitpicky definitions. I think world religions arrogate national and political identities into themselves (Romano-Hellenic/Christian was at one time a near assimilation, as was for a short time Arab/Islam) so that their wars are never not religious, but also never just religious. Maybe the first three Caliphs ruled an ethno-religious state whose wars were purely in the name of their religion, but the fourth Caliph Ali saw the blades of the followers of the prophet turned on fellow Muslims.
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  14. #74
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I mean the UN seems as a forum to spend a lot of time bashing Israel and failing to notice other iniquities.
    I don't think so. (but Arab-Israeli two-state solution is crucial to Middle East peace *)
    See also: Funds, Programmes, Specialized Agencies and Others | United Nations



    Climate change is moving faster than we are.Inequalities are growing. We see horrific violations of human rights. Nationalism, racism and xenophobia are on the rise.
    Today I will highlight 12 areas of concern..."
    * (About the middle east), "..Sixth, disentangling the mess in the broader Middle East.The situation in the broader Middle East has become a Gordian knot. With so many inter-related flashpoints, the risk of an escalatory cycle is real. We must press for a return to negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians. There is no alternative to a two-State solution. Recent signals of diminishing support for this undermine moderates and empower radicals.There is no plan-B.
    In Lebanon, let us all work to preserve the country’s sovereignty and stability, and strengthen state institutions.
    In Yemen, it is time for the parties to enter into meaningful peace negotiations beyond efforts to ease the dramatic humanitarian catastrophe.
    Looking at the Gulf, we must seize all opportunities to establish and strengthen platforms for regional dialogue to ease tensions, avoid escalations and allow for political solutions to emerge.
    In Syria, the United Nations will continue its engagement towards genuine, representative and direct intra-Syrian negotiations in Geneva leading to a political settlement of the conflict.
    And, in Iraq, we will support all efforts to ensure the country’s territorial integrity, pursue inclusive governance and ease sectarian tensions
    ".

    Seventh...(it's about Africa)

    About Europe,
    Eighth, "removing the paralysis that has let European conflicts fester and freeze. Having started two world wars, and taking into account the resources and capacities available to Europe, it is unjustifiable for conflicts in the region to persist.
    Resolving these situations requires pushing back the dangerous tide of nationalism, and revitalizing the relevant mediation initiatives – including the Normandy Format and Trilateral Contact Group on Eastern Ukraine, the OSCE Minsk Group on Nagorno-Karabakh, the Geneva International Discussions related to Georgia and the “5+2” process on Transnistria.
    A concerted effort for solutions leading to long-term stability in the Western Balkan s is also urgent.
    I urge European leaders to show that the continent can live up to its ideals of shared prosperity and peaceful coexistence."


    Nint, (it's about counter-terrorism)...
    Tenth, strengthening United Nations peace operations.
    Eleventh, reversing the large-scale exodus of Myanmar’s Rohingya Muslims.
    Twelfth, overcoming the false contradiction between human rights and national sovereignty.

    "In each of these 12 areas, we can see the disproportionate impact on women -- from conflicts to climate change to mass migration.We can also see, in the greater equality and inclusion of women, a fundamental tool to address these complex challenges.Human rights and national sovereignty go hand in hand.
    The achievement of human rights strengthens states and societies, thereby reinforcing sovereignty. States with effective, accountable institutions are among the best defenders of human rights.The United Nations stands ready to support states in building their capacities to uphold the rule of law and promote respect for human rights, all – civil, political, economic, social and cultural – and to eliminate all forms of discrimination
    ".
    ------

    In my opinion,we have had enough narratives of victimhood (from both parts). But, who suffers most? the Palestinians.
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  15. #75

    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    The two-state solution is crap. The only real solution is a one-state IMO, but unfortunately, both Israel and Palestine are too immature for that. The Two State solution could be a stepping stone towards that.

  16. #76
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Israel is now officially an Apartheid state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    The two-state solution is crap. The only real solution is a one-state IMO, but unfortunately, both Israel and Palestine are too immature for that...
    I beg to disagree. It's not a problem of immaturity.
    Israel is the land of the Jews. Let's keep in mind that Israel is a by product of Zionism, and when, for example, Pence hails 'the miracle of Israel's rebirth he explicitly agrees with a Jewish nationalist hyperbole, the idea that Israel was "reborn".
    A one-state solution means, in practical terms, the complete obliteration of the Palestinians. The Palestinians have now spent 50 years under Israeli military control. They want what belongs to them, and they have the right to an independent state. What's worse,Israel is increasing its international isolation through apartheid policies.
    In fact, more than 95% of the countries around the world are ready to support a two states solution.

    Very recently, Palestinians to Lead U.N.'s Biggest Bloc of Developing Countries ...
    Decision from major group representing diplomatic voice of 80 per cent of the world’s population
    In the last years, Europe has lately been swept by a wave of support for Palestinian statehood even as the peace process between Palestinian and Israeli sides remains deadlocked. In Europe, Sweden became the first EU country to recognize Palestine.

    Last february, the Government of The United Kingdom reiterates long standing commitment to a two states solution
    Ambassador Jonathan Allen says,
    The United Kingdom’s position on an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement has not changed. It should be based on the lines as they stood on June 4, 1967 with equal land swaps to reflect the national, security, and religious interests of the Jewish and Palestinian peoples. Jerusalem should be the shared capital of the Israeli and Palestinian states, and its status must be determined through a final status agreement. A just, fair, agreed and realistic settlement for refugees is needed that is demographically compatible with the principle of two states for two peoples.
    Germany supports a two-state solution
    Italy supports a two states solution.
    Spain supports a two states solution.And more. According to the news (Haaretz), just a few days ago ( September 2018)
    The Spanish government will promote a European move to recognize Palestine as an independent state, Spain's foreign minister said Thursday, adding that if the move fails the government will consider ...We May Go It Alone if That Fails
    Portugal -one of the most Jewish-friendly countries - (The Portuguese law of return was enacted in 2015 to encourage Jews with proven Portuguese ancestry to put down roots in Portugal), supports a two states solution.
    France supports a two states solution. in 2014, the French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said France would recognize Palestine as a state if peace efforts failed.
    "it is not a favor, it is a right," he said.
    Luxembourg′s Jean Asselborn calls for recognizing Palestine | News ...
    Slovenia: Slovenian Parliament Speaker Milan Brglez said Slovenia’s recognition of a Palestinian state was "not in doubt" but just a question of timing.

    On last August,UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres wrote,
    the protection of Palestinian civilians could be improved by the deployment of UN-mandated armed forces or unarmed observers, a beefed-up UN civilian presence, or expanded UN assistance.
    And he noted that all options would need the cooperation of both parties, a sustained cessation of hostilities, and additional resources to ensure they were viable. Here,
    UN Guterres: 4 proposals to improve Palestinian protection
    ...however, would need a Security Council mandate and the United States, a close ally of Israel, would likely wield its veto.
    What about Israel?
    In 2017 Guterres addressed the opening dinner of the World Jewish Congress Plenary Assembly and said: "Israel needs to be treated like any other UN member state” and that it had an "undeniable right to exist and to live in peace and security with its neighbors"

    Speech at the Museum of the Jewish People - António Guterres
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I am honoured to speak to you today after visiting the Museum of the Jewish People, which tells a story stretching over millennia and to all corners of the world.
    This remarkably rich mosaic is a Jewish legacy. But it is also an important part of the collective heritage of humanity, a showcase of its highest summits and its lowest depths.
    One cannot escape the fact that so many communities, where Jews lived and thrived for centuries, no longer exist because of countless waves of persecution and genocide.

    Ladies and Gentlemen,

    For one of my first speeches as Secretary-General, I took part in the International Holocaust Remembrance Day ceremony in the UN General Assembly Hall.
    The Holocaust was an incomparable tragedy and an incomparable crime in human history.
    The world has a duty to remember that the Holocaust was a systematic attempt to eliminate the Jewish people, together with some others.

    Let us also recognize that the Holocaust was the culmination of thousands of years of hatred and discrimination targeting the Jews – what we now call anti-Semitism.

    I am ashamed that my own country, Portugal, is marred by this history, and I was deeply moved by the eloquent testimony in the museum about the history of Portuguese Jews, their predicament, and their success around the world. The persecution reached its height with the order by King Manuel I in the 16th century, expelling all Jews who refused to convert. This was a hideous crime that caused tremendous suffering.
    But it was also a colossally stupid act that deprived Portugal of much of the country’s dynamism and led to prolonged periods of cultural and economic stagnation.
    Many Portuguese Jews went to the Netherlands, and we have seen a model of that wonderful building, the Portuguese Synagogue of Amsterdam, and they helped that country become one of the 17th century’s leading economies and innovators.

    When I became Prime Minister in 1995, I felt it was my duty to demonstrate my country's remorse for the Portuguese Inquisition and centuries of merciless attacks against the Jews.
    In 1996, the Parliament revoked the letter of expulsion. This was an admittedly symbolic act, but the spirit of repentance was genuine. Several descendants of expelled families have now exercised their right to regain Portuguese nationality.
    And I then was able to visit the Portuguese Synagogue in Amsterdam to formally present a copy of that decree and apologize on behalf of my country.
    I was impressed, as everybody can be, looking at the model right here, by the beauty of that Synagogue, and moved by what I learned about the vibrancy of Jewish life in the years before the Second World War. But sadly, in the Netherlands too, the Jewish community was almost completely destroyed by the Holocaust. As we have seen again and again, anti-Semitism tends to come back.
    After the Holocaust, the founding of the United Nations generated hope that the world could avoid such hatred and violence and would work together to advance equality and human rights for all.
    Yet, anti-Semitism and intolerance remain disturbingly widespread.
    There are still people who, despite the facts, deny the Holocaust or diminish its scope. There is even a tendency in some countries to rewrite the history around the Second World War and to rehabilitate some of the figures that were themselves involved in the crimes and the tragedy of the Holocaust.
    The Internet and social media are filled with hate speech and anti-Semitic imagery.
    We hear on the streets of democratic societies the repeating of some of the most vile Nazi chants and charges, just a few weeks ago, “blood and soil” or “the Jews will not replace us”.

    Today, anti-Semitism, along with racism, xenophobia, anti-Muslim hatred and other forms of intolerance, are being triggered by populism and by political figures who exploit fear to win votes. Immigrants, refugees and minorities across the world are also among the most frequent targets of this animus.

    Let me stress that when I talk about anti-Semitism, I include calls for the destruction of Israel. Israel is a Member State of the United Nations. It bears all the responsibilities and enjoys all the rights of every other Member State and, therefore, it must be treated as such.

    As Secretary-General of the United Nations, I am determined to do everything I can to stand against anti-Semitism and to all other forms of bigotry and discrimination.

    Ladies and Gentlemen,

    Three months from now, we will mark the 70th anniversary of the vote at the General Assembly on the “Partition Plan” that led to the creation of the state of Israel. Seventy years later, however, the promise of peace has not yet been delivered. Decades of conflict have cost thousands of lives and left deep scars in virtually every Palestinian and Israeli family.

    The United Nations remains committed to providing Israelis and Palestinians with all possible assistance and support to reach the goal of a comprehensive two-state solution.
    I have observed this process over the years with great concern, as someone who cares deeply about this land and its people.

    As Prime Minister of Portugal and in other political capacities, I worked with Israeli and Palestinian leaders and was impressed by the genuine desire they have shown to provide a secure and dignified future for their peoples, hoping to see a negotiated solution of two states based on relevant UN resolutions.
    Like many here and around the world, I have gone from great hopes about the peace process, to frustration over its stagnation.

    It is my deep belief that a two-state solution is the only way forward – the only path towards the historic compromise that can settle this conflict and lead to a better future for all.
    That is why I have been, and will continue to be, expressing my disagreement when it’s the case, with unilateral measures and facts on the ground that can or could undermine that solution –including settlement activities, but also continued violence, terror and incitement.
    I am well aware of the suspicious polarization and despair that have kept each side from seeing the other as a partner. I am equally cognizant of the political difficulties faced by each side’s political leaders.
    Yet I believe there is no alternative to a negotiated solution between the two parties.
    It is equally clear that we in the international community cannot simply turn away and allow the situation to deteriorate. We have a role and a responsibility to support the parties in resolving this conflict.
    The basic premise has not changed – this land is the ancestral homeland of two peoples.
    Both have an undeniable historic and religious bond with it; both have a right to live on it independently and as a free people, as masters of their own fate.
    Anyone visiting Israel is left with no doubt that it has fulfilled the rights and national aspirations of Jews throughout generations.
    Your country has become renowned worldwide for its great cultural, scientific, technological and scholarly achievements.
    We had the opportunity just two days ago to see some remarkable examples of innovation that can be of extreme utility for humankind all over the world in fighting climate change or in accomplishing the Sustainable Development Goals.
    You have succeeded in protecting your security against many threats, and signing peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, and building successful international alliances.
    Most importantly, you have created, for the first time in 2,000 years, a home for your people.
    It is now overdue that the Palestinians also fulfill their legitimate rights and national aspirations.
    I am deeply convinced that, when they do, when they are citizens of their own state, living side by side in peace and security with Israel, Jews will enjoy greater security – as it needs to be guaranteed, prosperity and recognition, and it will be an even greater source of pride for Israelis and for Jews around the world.
    I know that many in Israel share this conviction.
    Young men and women, including many of you here today, have the power to challenge physical and psychological barriers and seek to build a common future.
    Allow me to pay tribute to Palestinians and Israelis who are taking positive actions in their daily lives, often very quietly, to promote tolerance, cooperation and understanding between the two peoples.
    I was deeply moved this morning. We visited Nahal Oz, a kibbutz close to the Gaza Strip, that has been bombarded several times and in which one child has been killed by a rocket. I had the enormous pleasure, when talking to the families of the kibbutzim, to note that instead of what would be natural, a feeling of anger in relation to what is an attack on civilians and a violation of international humanitarian law, I have seen from them an extraordinary message of peace and reconciliation, asking us to help the Palestinians in Gaza to overcome their tragic humanitarian problems and being themselves ready to help and to provide support to the Palestinian community in Gaza.

    It was a fantastic example of solidarity, of humanity, of tolerance, that I want to pay tribute here publicly today.
    The voices of these true peacemakers must not be drowned out by the strident voices and violent actions of the far fewer agents of hate and division.
    Let us not forget that those individual peacebuilders represent the best faces of their communities and serve as the human foundation so essential for a lasting peace, here and everywhere.

    Thank you very much.
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 04, 2018 at 02:24 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

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