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Thread: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

  1. #81
    Nordling's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    I would like to make a Social Wars submod one day with the map.
    Ohhh, that one is good! Compact map with many settlements, one latin culture and enjoying legio vs legio battles. I would love to try it out although I never play as Romans in other campaigns.

  2. #82
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Yeah, really cool!

  3. #83

    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    I would like to make a Social Wars submod one day with the map.
    Yay!

  4. #84

    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    I would like to make a Social Wars submod one day with the map.
    That or Samnite wars.

  5. #85
    ~Seleukos.I.Nikator~'s Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Moscavich View Post
    I wasn't specifically referring to just Rome 2. But we, as in we who play historical strategy games have occurrences of the pyrrhic wars in other games as well.
    I see!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    I would like to make a Social Wars submod one day with the map.
    That's an interesting proposition, as well! Now you will just have to figure out how to represent the passing of Lex Julia with this new 'Government Actions' system.

  6. #86
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    @ Dresden: Are you sure Social Wars is a good idea gameplay wise? We already have plenty of civil war campaigns. You can have civil wars in GC as well. A social war campaign would be just a fully romanized version of ROTR set in a later time frame, with every italian tribe or greek city state basically indistinguishable from romans and basically no new units. I may agree with some of you that CA could have chosen another time frame and location for this dlc, but since we got this i really see no point in changing the setting. There would be nothing to be gained in terms of variety and uniqueness. Except maybe satisfy some of you guys that had hoped for an hellenistic centered dlc if the DEI team goes the pyrrhic wars path...

  7. #87

    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Goffredo85 View Post
    @ Dresden: Are you sure Social Wars is a good idea gameplay wise? We already have plenty of civil war campaigns. You can have civil wars in GC as well. A social war campaign would be just a fully romanized version of ROTR set in a later time frame, with every italian tribe or greek city state basically indistinguishable from romans and basically no new units. I may agree with some of you that CA could have chosen another time frame and location for this dlc, but since we got this i really see no point in changing the setting. There would be nothing to be gained in terms of variety and uniqueness. Except maybe satisfy some of you guys that had hoped for an hellenistic centered dlc if the DEI team goes the pyrrhic wars path...
    He said he'd like to make it as a submod, so it won't be forced upon you, just don't play it if it doesn't suit your interests.

  8. #88
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Where did i wrote or asked that he shouldn't do it? I was just discussing pros and cons of such a setting. Isn't discussion the reason why forums such as this exist?

  9. #89
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Italy was certainly something of a smorgasbord of different ethnicity during the time of the early Roman republic. But I do think the contribution of the Illyrian peoples to that mix, tends to be overlooked. Their role is often relegated to being simply of pirate raiders preying on shipping in the Adriatic. But some academics argue that they were far more than that and probably settled along much of the eastern part of the Italian peninsula. Much of this migration maybe occured some time prior to the campaign, but I think it unlikley that Illyria and those tribes with an Illyrian origin would have had no regular interaction other than raiding.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I see the DLC isn't really any different in that oversight and excludes any part of Illyria from the campaign map

  10. #90

    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Again Rise of Phyrrus rather than Rise of the Republic =)

  11. #91

    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    After have been watching some of the first gameplays from the DLC and I think that again we have the old problem of the lack of detail and variety for the units of some factions, like the Etruscans. So, maybe a mod with "polished and historically upgraded" version of the units from this DLC could be a good option.



  12. #92

    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Moscavich View Post
    That or Samnite wars.

    this dlc IS the Samnite Wars (but I too thought Samnite War instead of Social War first) =D

  13. #93

    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    No this DLC happens almost 70 years before the samnite wars.

    I don't believe the scope of the campaign will be a full 70 years.

    But I could be wrong and that would be nice to have the first and second samnite wars within a reasonable game session.

  14. #94
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Well lets say that the gallic invasion is its main focus, especially for advertising. But once you defeat them who you gonna fight next? After all the senones start with just a handful of cities. I think that the campaign can easily represent the samnitic wars too. Especially after a full DEI treatment...

  15. #95

    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Just being at war with the samnites and actually having the samnite wars are two different things.

  16. #96

    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Uh, guys? I just realized something. At this point in time, the Romans still fought in phalanxes right? If I recall correctly, they haven't even transitioned into early spear maniples yet. This means that we're going to see a lot of that weird phalanx turning nav-glitch that CA never fixed.

  17. #97

    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Quote Originally Posted by CadetNewb View Post
    Uh, guys? I just realized something. At this point in time, the Romans still fought in phalanxes right? If I recall correctly, they haven't even transitioned into early spear maniples yet. This means that we're going to see a lot of that weird phalanx turning nav-glitch that CA never fixed.
    Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll fix it with the patch

  18. #98

    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Quote Originally Posted by CadetNewb View Post
    Uh, guys? I just realized something. At this point in time, the Romans still fought in phalanxes right? If I recall correctly, they haven't even transitioned into early spear maniples yet. This means that we're going to see a lot of that weird phalanx turning nav-glitch that CA never fixed.
    I'm not as much of an expert on the Romans as on others but from what I gathered of wargaming army lists and similar stuff they often attribute the Camillian reforms to be one where Hastati emerged as proper sword/pilum/scutum, while the Principes were still the Servillian style 2nd class (or 3rd) warriors bearing scutum and spear with no javelin. Judging from the unit roster I found in one of the files there are sword-armed principes available but also spear armed principes. Specifically: "Ensis Principes" as well as "Principes" with Ensis being a word connotating swords.

    I cannot speak to what DEI's plans are for hoplites/phalanx as that isn't my forte but an idea that came to mind in my research I am starting to like is to represent Italic (Etruscan/Veneti/Campanian/Latin/Roman) Hoplites in an 'immature' form - where they receive a javelin/pilum in addition to their spear, they move faster but have a looser formation, weaker defense vis-a-vis a Greek hoplite, or outright lack the phalanx formation. This is not to suggest they are thureophoroi - they are not medium infantry like thureophoroi (or scutarii/Samnites) but are not so rigid as a classical mature Greek hoplite phalanx. If hoplites are very_heavy in speed then immature hoplites would be heavy while thureophoroi would be medium or light.

    It has been some years since I took the class on Greco-Roman Warfare taught by the author J.E. Lendon (Soldiers & Ghosts and Song of Wrath among other books about the Greco-Romans), so my memory may be off. However I recalled lessons about how the hoplite phalanx underwent a maturation from the late archaic period into the classical age, and only really around the Peloponnesian War did it achieve its 'pure' form. One where light infantry were completely segregated from operating within the phalanx (earlier art depicting them intermixed), where cavalry was (until the 4th century and experiences in Sicily) largely told to pound sand and not get involved in the fight. I think it also might explain the presence in the earlier vase artwork before the 5th century often depicting javelins in hoplite hands (due to that throwing strap) - back then they may have also thrown the javelin.

    1) This is reflected in some of the artwork I came across of Italic hoplites. I don't have on hand an Etruscan terracotta of a hoplite with his shield slung onto his back and his hand ready to throw a javelin, which is quintessentially Iliadic/Geometric/Early Archaic era style 'heroic' warfare. However, you can see a hoplite with two spears (one -has- to be a javelin) on this 5th century Italian bronze plaque https://imgur.com/hr5hHzX and a Veneti bronze plaque of the almost exact same pose/style https://i.imgur.com/14UFuLP.png .

    2) Furthermore, use of javelins by Italic hoplites would explain the depiction of the pilum on Etruscan tomb paintings, such as the one on page 10 - https://books.google.com/books?id=XM...0pilum&f=false scroll down and you see three pila situated between two aspises. Either those Etruscans weld an aspis, pilum and sword, or they weld an aspis + pilum + spear (and sword as a sidearm). It's a lot easier for me to accept the idea of the pilum used as a javelin by a hoplite than it is to accept the idea of Etruscans being pseudo-legionaries with aspis shields.

    3) Hoplites in Italy would lack the motivation for the purified, mature phalanx. In Greece it developed because outside of Thessaly or adventures in Aetolia fights between Poleis were straight-up conventional battles until Athens began to rely on psioli/peltasts. There was also, at least if you buy the Victor Davis Hansen and JE Lendon theories as I do, a ritualistic element to such a purified mature phalanx. Outside of intra-Etruscan or intra-Magna Graecian conflicts these variables do not exist when it comes to Veneti versus Celts or Rhaeti, or Etruscans vs Celts and Latins, or Campanians versus Samnites. Any hoplite trying to do a pure classical phalanx would be liable to experience at the hands of the Oscans and Apuli what Demosthenes experienced in Aetolia - disaster.

    4) A slightly 'immature' phalanx also works better with the issue of the Servillan "5 class" system described by Livy and corraborated by the Situla Certosa - if the Etruscan/Latin/Veneti phalanx is one of tight packed shield-to-back then scutums carried by class 2 and 3 are a slight problem. Not impossible, but still a bit clunky. You can see a lot of consternation about where the 2nd/3rd class were to the regular 1st class hoplite - behind them or on their sides? If the phalanx is not as tightly packed and rigid as the Greek, this is less of an issue.

    5) Javelins are ubiquitous in Italy. They are basically the national weapon of the Oscans (AKA everyone in South and Central Italy who isn't Latin or Greek. Umbrians being an exception who are often lumped in with the Oscans), the Etruscans seem to like it judging from their use of the pilum. It's reasonable to imagine with the evidence of hoplites bearing javelins in Italic art that they would join in on the trend.

    6) Lastly, it would achieve a neat gameplay distinction so as to avoid an over-abundance of hoplites. You'd have classical mature hoplites with Taras and Syracuse and immature hoplites in Campania/Rome/Etruscans/Veneti. Magna Graecian hoplites are heavier, stronger defense and slightly stronger attack but "Italian" hoplites are faster and have a javelin attack. Also if the phalanx does have a severe bug it would mitigate this issue.

    -----------

    Bear in mind the above is not at all DEI policy, I am speaking personally with an idea I am proposing, not one they will do. If the idea isn't accepted then I am not sure if I will attempt it myself or not. I'd like to avoid doing any stat changes since I have 3CC and FOTE to worry about but it's a small enough project I might give it a try.
    Last edited by Ahiga; August 06, 2018 at 12:08 AM.

  19. #99

    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    This is all a lot of food for thought, but so far, I'm under the impression that there are three possibilities regarding what CA may do. 1) We have Roman hoplites with no fix 2) Roman hoplites with fix and 3) Roman post-hoplite units that don't deal with those mechanics altogether. However, as I typed this reply up, I realized something else. I'm still thinking of this in terms of DEI, in which the hoplites are actually modified pike units. Which, in vanilla, they're something else, I think? Does the vanilla hoplite phalanx use the same mechanics as a pike unit even? If not, I dunno, maybe I'm thinking too much about this.

  20. #100
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: Rise of The Republic (New DLC)

    Vanilla hoplites use shield wall.

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