Gender recognition act

[95thrifleman]

Currently there is a public debate in the UK regarding the gender recognition act.

As it stands, changing one's gender legaly is a complex process, requiring doctor's documents, period of time in the chosen gender and quite a few hoops. There is a public debate on reforming the act and making it easier.

Now this is an interesting debate with womrn's groups split over what is and is not a woman (or a man for that matter).

What are the views of our community on this issue?

Despite many of my liberal views, I have to say someone with a penis is a man and has no right being in the same public toilet as a woman. If they have the op, and have a downstairs that matches upstairs then fair enough, women they be.

However where does this leave transexuals who are happy being half and half? This is a challenge to my beliefs on personal freedom and I do find the complex question quite fascinating.

What do we do with these "non-binary" and "third" genders in our two gender societies?

https://www.gov.uk/government/consul...ition-act-2004

[Alastor]

What do we do? Mixed toilets.

[joethepro36]

For most I think it's just mental illness. The suicide rate of 45% of transgenders is an alarmingly high statistic that quite simply cannot be explained by rejection from society alone, there must be a significant mental illness component.
There is a section of people born intersex, which is being born with improper genitalia where the doctors basically have to make a decision on what sex the person actually is with some quick corrective surgery.

More abstractly the real problem with where the transgender movement has gone to is that it's less about actually changing properly from male to female or vice versa and more about trying to be both or a mixed of each. The whole point of transitioning is to change. The whole phenomenon I find very difficult to put into words but generally speaking, it's a topic that gives me the most reactionary thought. In my mind, you pick a single gender out of the two and that's that. Any society that experiments with subverting the natural order with multiple genders outside of the natural ones will probably fall. Never mind the aberrant behavior of it, you have to have children to continue on and tearing off or mutilating genitals stops you being able to have children.

[alhoon]

I believe someone born with male genitalia is a man and someone born with female genitalia is a woman whatever they think about it. I believe Gender Dysphoria is a mental malady. I believe that we should not empower such people's problems by calling them with different gender pronouns. As long as he has male genitalia, call him a "he".
I believe there should not be dangerous "hormone therapy" until after puberty. I believe there should be no gender change surgery until after the person is old enough to legaly drink and\or vote.

I also believe people with said mental problems should be able to use the bathroom of their choosing though.
Frankly, if someone is going to attack and attempt to rape women it is very unlikely that a law asking him to use a different bathroom would stop him. Also a schizophrenic woman is IMO more dangerous than a transgender. Are we to have different bathrooms for such persons too? How about drug users that are missing their dose? Are we going to put them in different bathrooms too? What about serial sex offenders?
Transexuals may have a mental disorder but I have not seen a study painting them as more dangerous than other people with mental disorders.

A law that would just inconvenience the law-abiding (thus not raping) part of people that already have a lot of problems is not a good law IMO.
Neither is a law that empowers such people by allowing them to "choose" genders and feeds their delusions though.

What do we do with these "non-binary" and "third" genders in our two gender societies?

Simply explain to them they are wrong and try to help them accept who they really are i.e. what nature made them, not who they want to be.
The same we would do with someone thinking he or she is a cat.

Same as the white woman identifying as a black woman should have been treated, instead of hateful scorn.

[Alastor]

Frankly, if someone is going to attack and attempt to rape women it is very unlikely that a law asking him to use a different bathroom would stop him.

Is that really the reason toilets are gender separated? If so that is downright preposterous, not to mention very offensive towards men. My impression was always it was an idea born out of some sort of Victorian prudishness, not to protect women from sexual assault. As a practice it is totally and completely useless in that regard anyway.

[alhoon]

Is that really the reason toilets are gender separated? If so that is downright preposterous, not to mention very offensive towards men. My impression was always it was an idea born out of some sort of Victorian prudishness, not to protect women from sexual assault. As a practice it is totally and completely useless in that regard anyway.

What? No. The reason toilets are gender separated is because of decency that comes out of the Victorian age, an age of proper morals.

Ask women and the vast majority would tell you they feel more comfortable in women-only bathrooms. I know I feel very weird when women invade our bathrooms. I avoid setting foot in women's bathroom like they're ridden with the black plague. If I have to go and men's bathroom is locked \ being cleaned etc, I visit mother nature or hold it.
If I want to wash my hands and men's bathroom is out of soap, I don't raid the women's bathroom, I man-it-up and I wash with water only until I get home.

Also, when in men's bathroom, I use the urinals. If women get in our bathrooms, it would be impossible to do so. Or at least, it would be indecent.

[Alastor]

What? No. The reason toilets are gender separated is because of decency that comes out of the Victorian age, an age of proper morals.

That makes more sense.

Ask women and the vast majority would tell you they feel more comfortable in women-only bathrooms. I know I feel very weird when women invade our bathrooms. I avoid setting foot in women's bathroom like they're ridden with the black plague. If I have to go and men's bathroom is locked \ being cleaned etc, I visit mother nature or hold it.
If I want to wash my hands and men's bathroom is out of soap, I don't raid the women's bathroom, I man-it-up and I wash with water only until I get home.

Also, when in men's bathroom, I use the urinals. If women get in our bathrooms, it would be impossible to do so. Or at least, it would be indecent.

Well of course they would feel more comfortable, as would you. It's the norm. But norms change. And seeing how much controversy this gender separated toilets business is causing lately, particularly with all these "new" genders it is about time we put it to rest, so we can start being comfortable together. Well either that or we can have separate toilets for each of the 153 different gender identities around today, so that everyone can feel comfortable separately.

[Prodromos]

Transgenderism is an example of postmodernism's rejection of objective truth. Sex is not like culture or personality, which are easily alterable. Human beings are organized according to their role in sexual reproduction, fertilizer and fertilized, male and female. Hence it is no more coherent for a male to identify as a female, than it is coherent for a square to identify as a circle. A transgender person can at most be a superficial imitation of the opposite sex, but will never be the real thing. Of course it might be rude to tell it to their face, but that doesn't mean the government should endorse the delusion or punish those who reject it.

[Himster]

Three bathrooms, that's the answer.
A special one for the those in the thrall of the currently fashionable that is the project of postmodernist and then the other regular two for everyone else.

I mean gender binary normativity will probably never go away in any democratic society. The only hope the non-binary have for getting the recognition they are braying for is by a violent coup and the establishment of a totalitarian dictatorship with precisely that agenda. Based on the level of hysterical craziness I've witnessed and experienced from the vocal minority in their camp: I wouldn't put it past them.

[alhoon]

Well either that or we can have separate toilets for each of the 153 different gender identities around today, so that everyone can feel comfortable separately.

Or we keep having two bathrooms for the 99.6% of the population that have no ambivalence about their gender and don't conform the norms and compromise our morals for the 0.4%.
We let the 0.4% use the bathrooms of their choice and we keep 2 bathrooms. That is a faaar easier solution.

The only hope the non-binary have for getting the recognition they are braying for is by a violent coup and the establishment of a totalitarian dictatorship with precisely that agenda. Based on the level of hysterical craziness I've witnessed and experienced from the vocal minority in their camp: I wouldn't put it past them.

Are you sarcastic or you believe that vocal minority would actually welcome trangender feminazi deathsquads?

[NorseThing]

One bathroom that is only going to hold one person. Problem solved.

[Alastor]

Or we keep having two bathrooms for the 99.6% of the population that have no ambivalence about their gender and don't conform the norms and compromise our morals for the 0.4%.
We let the 0.4% use the bathrooms of their choice and we keep 2 bathrooms. That is a faaar easier solution.

That doesn't really sound very fair. Why do this 0.4% get the right to choose and the rest is stuck with only one set of toilets? And besides what would entitle one to the choice? If some people had the choice for instance, I definitely would like the choice also, even if only for practical reasons.

[alhoon]

That doesn't really sound very fair. Why do this 0.4% get the right to choose and the rest is stuck with only one set of toilets? And besides what would entitle one to the choice? If some people had the choice for instance, I definitely would like the choice also, even if only for practical reasons.

Medical records of course, and nothing else. No more totally-comfortable-in-their-femininity teenager girls gossiping in our bathroom telling me "ours is full", while I have to wait in line for their (female) friend to finish up in there since I can't use the damned Urinals in presence of these teenager girls.
Try travelling by ship from Athens to Crete during the summer (or the five-day-holiday \ springbreak \ πενταήμερη) and you will understand why bathroom laws are mandatory. They are for our protection not for the protection of the girls.

[Alastor]

Medical records of course, and nothing else. No more totally-comfortable-in-their-femininity teenager girls gossiping in our bathroom telling me "ours is full", while I have to wait in line for their (female) friend to finish up in there since I can't use the damned Urinals in presence of these teenager girls.

What medical records? You mean people will have to be cleared by psychologists? Issued orientation certificates? How about we put gender orientation on their IDs too? "What does it say on your gender orientation field? Oh non-binary? Ok you can choose your toilet now." I think the problems with that are fairly obvious.

[sumskilz]

The whole phenomenon I find very difficult to put into words but generally speaking, it's a topic that gives me the most reactionary thought. In my mind, you pick a single gender out of the two and that's that. Any society that experiments with subverting the natural order with multiple genders outside of the natural ones will probably fall. Never mind the aberrant behavior of it, you have to have children to continue on and tearing off or mutilating genitals stops you being able to have children.

You're on the wrong side of history, or some such nonsense.

Infinite genders:



Although I do feel such a campaign needs to get more creative about what each of these infinite genders actually entail. Thus far, they all seem to involve varying characteristics of the two... for some reason.

[Diocle]

Currently there is a public debate in the UK regarding the gender recognition act. ..

wiki

"The United Kingdom does not have one specific constitutional document named as such."

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but we might say that the UK has no written Constitution but nevertheless it feels the need of having a written "Trans-Gender Constitution" ?!?!?!

Britons!

[alhoon]

What medical records? You mean people will have to be cleared by psychologists? Issued orientation certificates? How about we put gender orientation on their IDs too? "What does it say on your gender orientation field? Oh non-binary? Ok you can choose your toilet now." I think the problems with that are fairly obvious.

Nope, that's not what I mean. But people medically diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria can use the bathroom of their choice.
Now you may say "And what stops me from lying in order to sneak into women's bathroom!?" What stops you now? What stopped you 5 years ago?

Bathroom laws are not needed. Just allow transgenders to use the bathroom of their choice and not do it by law, do it by civility as it was 10 years ago. Did we have bathroom laws 10 years ago? No. And society still functioned and IMO better than now.

[Alastor]

Nope, that's not what I mean. But people medically diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria can use the bathroom of their choice.
Now you may say "And what stops me from lying in order to sneak into women's bathroom!?" What stops you now? What stopped you 5 years ago?

Several laws actually. Even in places where using the wrong toilets is not itself an offence you would still be in danger of being accused of trespassing, disorderly conduct, indecent exposure and a litany of other possible offences.

Bathroom laws are not needed. Just allow transgenders to use the bathroom of their choice and not do it by law, do it by civility as it was 10 years ago. Did we have bathroom laws 10 years ago? No. And society still functioned and IMO better than now.

I agree, they are not needed. It's why I said simply mix it up and be done with it. That we allow Victorian prudishness on this day and age to affect our lives so, to the point where issues like this arise, is just sad. I mean come on, it's just a toilet.

[Genghis Skahn]

Transexuals may have a mental disorder but I have not seen a study painting them as more dangerous than other people with mental disorders.

AFAIK, the data suggests that they're more likely to be a victim of violence than a perpetrator, and likely to inflict self-harm on themselves to boot. That seems to be one argument that transwomen use: that using male bathrooms endangers them because of encounters with violent homophobes/transphobes(female homophobes/transphobes aren't as physically violent as their male counterparts); I'm sure it probably is dangerous meeting the wrong man in a bathroom as a transwoman. However, the solution of letting transwomen use female bathrooms is also problematic IMO(namely, that any greasy son of a who was dedicated enough could pretend to be a transwoman and spy on women in a girl's bathroom).

I gotta say I lean towards the 3rd toilet, although that's the more costly solution when compared to advocating for mixed bathrooms. However, I think the 3rd toilet would probably cause less friction.

Regarding Gender Dysphoria, we have to remember that 1) overwhelmingly people identify their gender with their sex 2)Quite a number of people who suffer from it become "cured" later on simply by the passage of time, instead usually choosing to live as Gay versions of whatever sex they were born as; unfortunately this outcome is no longer encouraged in therapy in Canada(instead, anyone suffering from it is encouraged to transition, and legally it's very easy to change your gender).

I am very opposed to hormone blockers being used before puberty starts because not undergoing puberty could have adverse effects on someone's future health. Not undergoing puberty is in fact a medical condition(AFAIK--but it won't stay that way for long since it's politically incorrect for the pro-hormone blocker crowd). More importantly, because quite a number of transgender people "grow out" of being transgender, and instead choose to live as gay members of their birth sex, being given hormone blockers before puberty starts(usually gender dysphoria hasn't self-resolved by then) could REALLY cause huge problems for the people who suddenly decide they don't want to transition anymore. In fact, I already smell the blood spilled from future court cases surrounding abuse of politically motivated treatments for gender dysphoria over evidence-based ones.

It is embarrassing, but I honestly think that it may be increasingly harder for high school and university biology teachers to speak about sexual dimorphism and fertilization itself in this country. For some transgender activists, and generally most post-modernists, sexual dimorphism as a concept, despite the chromosomal evidence to suggest it's existence, is debatable(of course they offer no alternative models to suggest why so many species have two different sexes, and not 3 or 5) and oppressive.

[tgoodenow]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Where does this go?

I don't care what gender people identify as, but forcing people to accept it as fact is one of the more ridiculous platforms of liberals lately.