Gender recognition act

[Aexodus]

We can't accommodate rape victims without totally isolating them, and btw womens shelters aren't dormitories they have individual rooms. Often entire suites with a kitchen area and bathrooms.

What she wanted, was to not have to share a room in the shelter with a man, why is that so bad?

The element here that I just don’t like, is how it was in fact she who was breaking the law here.

You basically are demanding a train of people to be able to march past me and scream tranny, and so long as they only do it once, it 's all hunkey dory?

I don’t know your story spitfire, and I’m sorry to hear if you’ve had difficult experiences. I myself got bullied all through school, not because of anything I did or said, but because of what I was, which was different to the majority of students in that school. I should be ‘kerb stomped’ I was a ‘spastic’ apparently, but you just learn to ignore it and walkaway.

I don't know how the news goes in the other countries, but here it's really not that much of an issue? The only problems we have here is that companies are pushing for non-binary clothes for children. So basically boys and girls clothes are in the same section and it's up to the children to decide what they want. I'm personally fine with this, it doesn't bother me, I get how it might bother some people though.

I have to say I find that more than a little strange. Here at least they’re not trying that, yet. (In fact they have yet to get a gay pride parade here too lol)

Back to the current issue though, I guess we need to identify the problem because I don't necessarily get whose the target of this issue. I don't think I'm the target (20 year old who transitioned way early and isn't even a blip on your radar haha) neither do I think my trans friends are the target since we're upstanding citizens who don't do drugs and study and work and we're busy teenagers/young adults building our future. Or is it the people who transition later in life look a lot more masculine like Caitlyn Jenner or others who could be seen as a bit more on the crazy side by some? Or maybe the all-powerful SJW's who want basically any and every gender to be protected in the law and people who insult them be stoned to death?

I wouldn’t want it to come to that (ie Canada eh) but the issue is a. Should the process be made easier ie. should you no longer need a doctor’s letter as proposed by the so-called Conservative, Theresa May.

b. Should it only be male and female transexuals who are recognised, if not do we expand the right to non binary, third gender, or infinite.

Is this just a debate about being able to offend someone or insult them without being arrested? In that case I don't see what the problem is really. You still can, although I think making it a crime isn't necessarily best policy it probably won't work a lot in practice. I mean who do you want to offend/insult or refuse to say she or he to? I don't really get why you would want to necessarily I mean I did hear of some crazies who pulled a gun on a person and shot the person for not using the 'correct' pronouns. But those are such outliers it's not even funny if they're not, do correct me but I've never met anyone like that in my life (Lucky me!) If you want to insult me or someone else go ahead but I don't see the point unless you know them personally... You still have a right of free speech in most all countries, but sometimes it does get to a point where it gets to be harassment. Do I think using the wrong pronouns should be criminalized? Not really no. I do think it's a d*ck move (But I've said this before.)

I mean, I’m a guy. If you insisted I’m female, I’d just think you’re a weirdo or something why would I be offended aha

Well, in the end, it all comes down to appearances I think which is stupid and unfortunate. If you're a 40-year-old biological guy who came with the idea he/she's trans (And I know in the U.S they have very limited gateway laws to restrict people from starting.) Then yeah you're going to have a lot of problems down the road, not to mention people will accept you A-LOT LESS as being who you identify as or whatever the case might be.

One I never understand is how is it fair biological men are allowed in athletics against women? Totally unfair. That’s another problem if someone is legally recognised as non-binary, what the hell do you do about sports events? Excluding people completely isn’t the answer, at least I wouldn’t want it to be.

If you start off early at 16 - 20 (After long psychological talks which I have done for many years with experts.) And you roll a lucky genetic dice then you're going to have a lot less trouble and people don't mind you as much or at least don't outright hate you. And even accept you way faster, that's talking from personal experience I came back from a 2 week long trip around Europe with a few of my friends and I haven't met anyone during my vacation who glared at me or mean-eyed me because I fit in. I travelled to bits of Eastern Europe as well as Italy if anyone's interested!

Btw just on a quick side note I think it's a bit hasty to say "To hell with cultural roles" They've been there since forever, and they are there for a reason. Guys generally grow up to be macho men and women generally grow up to be caretakers (There's a lot of exceptions to this rule and there are shades to both of these roles, but it's generally what's been true throughout history. You can see that in Total War games itself, I wouldn't want to fight in a men's war during the middle ages or antiquity.)

Your posts have been most refreshing to read if I’m honest, I think some dialgoue and common ground has actually been achieved here.

In England, some women put up stickers saying ‘women don’t have penises’, and the Spectator puts my feelings across well here.

For some, the basic question posed here is: Do women have a legal right to say No to being in an enclosed private space with a person who has a penis? And the current law, as it is applied, does not say an unqualified Yes to that question. Proposals to allow people to change gender on the basis of their own self-declaration (without, for instance, a medical diagnosis) leave some women even more concerned that they will have no meaningful legal right to exclude people with penises from their spaces.

note - without a medical diagnosis. This is supported by cuckservative Prime Minister Theresa May

and some people actually think this should be a crime?!? Can you believe this?

Is it now a crime to say “women don’t have penises”? A police force and a City mayor seem to think it might be. They are promising to investigate women who say so. That question arises because some women are putting up stickers in public places bearing those words.

it’s really quite ridiculous, and authoritarian.

Reactions have been striking, to say the least. At least one Twitter user has asked Merseyside Police to investigate a potential crime. Others have asked local politicians to act. Just the usual Twitter nonsense, right? No one is actually going to treat stickers saying “women don’t have penises” as a crime, are they?Well guess what Merseyside Police said when people sent them tweets asking them to investigate those sticker?

Hi, thanks for the tag, I can confirm we are aware of this matter and enquiries are being made.
— MerPolCC (@MerPolCC) August 17, 2018

And here’s Joe Anderson, elected mayor of Liverpool:
“We will remove stickers and work with the Police to identify those responsible.”
It’s traditional to end columns like this by making an argument or a point, but in this case, I think the most eloquent comment I can make about Britain today and the state of the transgender debate is just to restate the facts and let readers draw their own conclusions: A feminist group is today facing the prospect of investigation by a police force and a City mayor for saying “women don’t have penises”.

P.S Sorry my forumname is actually kind of old if you want to call me by my firstname you can call me Lianne, SilverSarah was a very old online alias. And I haven't found a way to change it yet unfortunately

You can hange your name here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...hange-Requests

[LadyKætten]

Well personally I find that you should at least have a dozen talks with the psychologist before getting ANY doctor's letters, that's the way it's done here. I do however think waiting lines to get to those psychologists is way too long (Here it's 3 years and you wouldn't even have an appointment during them.), and to a degree I do think only males and females should be recognized (That's to say there is no "Transwoman" "Transman" on a passport. (And I wouldn't want that either tbh)) I think non-binary people should be treated as equals like any other person but I'm not sure if I believe that there is some sort of 3rd gender personally.

I mean, I’m a guy. If you insisted I’m female, I’d just think you’re a weirdo or something why would I be offended aha

Exactly! To clarify though although this might seem like a petty insult to most, it does hurt someone's feelings believe it or not haha. Then again you do just build a wall against insults.

One I never understand is how is it fair biological men are allowed in athletics against women? Totally unfair. That’s another problem if someone is legally recognised as non-binary, what the hell do you do about sports events? Excluding people completely isn’t the answer, at least I wouldn’t want it to be.

Well yeah, this depends if it's a non-binary person whose not taking hormones like estrogen and anti-androgens then no they shouldn't be allowed to play sports with women and vice versa. In regards to trans women though like myself (Or trans men) who start off early (This may also apply to people who start later?? don't quote me on this.) But in regards to that if you're on them long enough you don't have an 'advantage' my muscles are just as average as the average woman's. In fact, I'm probably below average when it comes to all people who do athletics haha. And I can say personally it does bother me that the sports discussion is such a raging debate, I would love to do like a team sport someday but I'm deathly afraid of people hating me for participating in them just because I used to be a boy one time in my life. Now this is probably like an unfounded fear, but it still persists.

Your posts have been most refreshing to read if I’m honest, I think some dialgoue and common ground has actually been achieved here.

N'awww thanks for the compliment! I think so as well, I do hope me yammering about myself doesn't get boring In the end it's all about dialogue!

And thanks for the link!

[Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!]

What she wanted, was to not have to share a room in the shelter with a man, why is that so bad?

The element here that I just don’t like, is how it was in fact she who was breaking the law here.

She was being a . She objected to someone else, why should she have a right no kind of lgbt person should have. If she objected ont he basis of race, as I suggested, you'd not be perturbed, but she deicded to be a dick.
I don’t know your story spitfire, and I’m sorry to hear if you’ve had difficult experiences. I myself got bullied all through school, not because of anything I did or said, but because of what I was, which was different to the majority of students in that school. I should be ‘kerb stomped’ I was a ‘spastic’ apparently, but you just learn to ignore it and walkaway.

He;'s my story,. there's no where to walk to, did you even read my psot? I'm sorry, you had a shirty experiance, but that doesn't mean it should happen to any other bugger who drew the short straw. I condemed to your fate, I'm a prisoner in my own hoem, because of people who share your opinon. And you jsut had my story.

I have to say I find that more than a little strange. Here at least they’re not trying that, yet. (In fact they have yet to get a gay pride parade here too lol)

urh, yes we are.

I wouldn’t want it to come to that (ie Canada eh) but the issue is a. Should the process be made easier ie. should you no longer need a doctor’s letter as proposed by the so-called Conservative, Theresa May.

b. Should it only be male and female transexuals who are recognised, if not do we expand the right to non binary, third gender, or infinite.
-she is a conservative, she is conserving, nothing going away, wer're adding , you realized we've been around for eons? Cosnervation mean preserivng things, not suppressing "new" ones.


One I never understand is how is it fair biological men are allowed in athletics against women? Totally unfair. That’s another problem if someone is legally recognised as non-binary, what the hell do you do about sports events? Excluding people completely isn’t the answer, at least I wouldn’t want it to be.

-NOT BIOLOGICALLY MEN, BIOLOGY INCLUDES YOUR BRAIN DUMMY. Use XY. in response, we shouldn't ahve that, women should come 15th, unless the used to have a dick, and blacks as they are, should beat the out of whites asians and who ever else at running.


In England, some women put up stickers saying ‘women don’t have penises’, and the Spectator puts my feelings across well here.

those women are , and they can burn in hell. some women, do have penises and two xx chromosomes, they're called intersext people. it's not even factually correct. trannies or not.

you don't feel upset if I call you a , (this is there nearest misogynistic term to tranny) because your identity isn't under threat, have some cut off your balls, or imagine the distress, pain, and hate, and fear, and dysphoria that would cause, because it's the same, it's just temporary for us. +----------

Let get some straight, you don't have to call anyone male, female, woman man, becuase you can keep your mouth shut, and not use any, that is the way forward.

And again, no response to your condemning transmen to rape.

You're dreadful at this, and you ened tos top. reaqlly, you're just being arrogant, as in "my opinon is mine ergo it's better" there's nothing factual, nothing interesting, the only thing you have is "I can't do what I want." sorry sweethart, but that doesn't cut it.

Less rthan a week ago online I had someone steal all the pics off my facebook then, and go "yeah, edeffo a man" "little tranny SJW " "You want to be a woman, I'll make you a woman" numberous tranny, hes, and usual misogynistic shite.

Know what the topic was? decoration on airsoft fields, and yet for some reason that came up.

I've walked as far as you can walk, I'm in a coner and animals in corners fightback, all you're doing, is advocating fighting back.

so shut your godamn [this siad a bad word, that I put by force of habit]mouth, and get on with your life and stay out of other peoples, and get over yourself and the erosion of your white cis social superiority.

Your advocating the people with the short stick have to hold it by the end too,t hat's not on, it's not fair ti's not right, and I ahve the right to a private livfe which all hese and they're smart arse omments are in the way of.

You are not entiled to single sex services, shelters, or to talk to people like carp. give up, go home, do something useful.

[Aexodus]

urh, yes we are.

I really can’t see non-binary clothing coming to Northern Ireland any time soon to be honest.

it's not even factually correct. trannies or not.

Whether something offensive is right or wrong is entirely and completely irrelevant. Should they, or should they not, be imprisoned for saying women don’t have penises?

In peak Britbong fashion, a feminist group is facing criminal investigation by the police and mayor of a city for saying women don’t have penises. Draw your own conclusions.

He;'s my story,. there's no where to walk to, did you even read my psot?

If someone is forcing you to hear them harass you, I agree that’s illegal. But if they’re not forcing you to listen, if there is no compulsion involved, there is no victim.

What is making you a prisoner in your own home? If someone is continuously harassing you, report them to the police.

Again, the original point was this - should I be forced, on pain of government force, to treat biological men as women. I disagree.

Should I? Yes, I should if I don’t want to be a dick, but if I don’t want to, I shouldn’t be forced.

It’s the same as: yes, giving charity is a good thing, but being forced to give up your money is just socialism theft.

[Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!]

I'm not answering anything put to me by you until you take a stancew on my points, my psot has also been edited, re-read it.

[Aexodus]

You are not entiled to single sex services, shelters,

I just think if I want to provide a service limited to one sex or the other, I should be allowed to do so. Canadian lawmakers and SJWs say otherwise.

get over yourself and the erosion of your white cis social superiority.

Ah, the oppression pyramid

[Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!]

fails to answer any points put to you.
you know you're hurting people, but damn to them, that's their problem, where Ic ome from, we call that malice.

THere's enough of you lot that you only have to do it once for me get it all the bloody time.

I'm nto strong right now, dont demand it of me.

Im out.

[conon394]

but being forced to give up your money is just socialism theft

Or taxes...

[alhoon]

Allhoon, your opinion is irrelevant, your opinion (I can say that? right?) your opinon can go hang, you do not have the right to express that opinon TO ME. What aprt of this don't you peoplke get, yes, you can say WHATEVER you WANT, NOT WHENEVER.

I will give no ground, that belongs to me, to you, you can do what you like, until you involve me in it. Anyone with a problem with consent, can die, you wanna get into a debating club, into a stage, on a soap box in a designated public aprk, and say the UK government should be paying for this, I will support your right to, but you want to come into my work, my shop, my street, and impose your poorly though out, objectively unscientific views on me? No, you do not, and should not get to do that.

Let those people vote, this is the UNTIED KINGDOM, might I remind you of the lord Salisbury? or the Earl Mansfeild, or her Britannic Majesty?

He's the line, the line isn't your opinon, no-one, gives a damn, you don't give a damn what I think, the issues is those who impose their views on others and those who do not.

I am not sure we agree on how "your rights stop where my rights start" works, friend...
Calling an overweight man "fat" or a transsexual by a different noun than he or she decided to use is not imposing on his right to be fat nor his or hers right to be a transsexual and identify by the gender chosen. Relatively speaking, it very minor. The world has bigger problems. One should be worried about career, studies, paying the rent, vacations etc not what someone called him or her on the street.

As for the issue being those that impose their views on others, I agree. But that includes both the "bathroom laws!" side and the SJWs side. Both are hellbent to impose their views.

Exactly the same way as I can't impose my beliefs on you, you don't get to impose your beliefs to me. You can choose how you call yourself, not how others call you.

PS. I have no idea at all who those lords and earls are nor I understand what was your point with them as I don't know them. I am not from UK, I have not even stepped in UK in my life.

[alhoon]

I don't know how the news goes in the other countries, but here it's really not that much of an issue? The only problems we have here is that companies are pushing for non-binary clothes for children. So basically boys and girls clothes are in the same section and it's up to the children to decide what they want. I'm personally fine with this, it doesn't bother me, I get how it might bother some people though.

Wait, you do? Because I don't.

I wouldn't even notice probably. Also is there a difference between "unisex clothes" and "non binary" ?

Well personally I find that you should at least have a dozen talks with the psychologist before getting ANY doctor's letters, that's the way it's done here. I do however think waiting lines to get to those psychologists is way too long (Here it's 3 years and you wouldn't even have an appointment during them.),


But in regards to that if you're on them long enough you don't have an 'advantage' my muscles are just as average as the average woman's. In fact, I'm probably below average when it comes to all people who do athletics haha. And I can say personally it does bother me that the sports discussion is such a raging debate, I would love to do like a team sport someday but I'm deathly afraid of people hating me for participating in them just because I used to be a boy one time in my life. Now this is probably like an unfounded fear, but it still persists.



N'awww thanks for the compliment! I think so as well, I do hope me yammering about myself doesn't get boring In the end it's all about dialogue!

And thanks for the link!

You have mentioned those huge waiting lines for some time now friend. Why does it take 3 years to set up an appointment if I may ask? When the waiting period is a year?

As for athletics, unfortunately, it is not the same. The upper body of the average man that never goes to the gym, has a beer belly etc is as strong as a fit woman. Men are like 50% stronger than women or something. I don't know how those transition hormones etc work but I don't think (I.e. opinion, I haven't studied that) they take out all the physical advantages male body has over female body and I don't think they confer all the mental and emotional advantages the female brain has over the male brain. Like how women are able to see more details from the corner of their vision or have a far more precise ability to "Read" the mood etc.

And yes, your posts are helpful.

[Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!]

Exactly the same way as I can't impose my beliefs on you, you don't get to impose your beliefs to me. You can choose how you call yourself, not how others call you.

that's not how that works, friend. not in a social context, physically, I decide if you live or die, sure, assuming I can kill you, but socially, on the basis of consent, do call me what I like or you don't call me, it's simple.

ahve you ever had 100s of people call you names bi-weekly? no? it drains you.


it's not good for soceity.

it wasn't directed at you, but you should it's a nice place.

If my belif is I get to her, and hers is I can't hers wins, because it's about her. otherwise those two opinions are equal.

This applies to myself, and as it applies to me or my property, what I say goes.

You control what comes out your mouth, burt that doesn't mean it can't violate my cosnent.

[Sir Adrian]

white cis social superiority.

Tiny problem, all western societies are comprised of mostly straight white people. Are you arguing for forced reeducation and eugenics?

[LadyKætten]

I wouldn't even notice probably. Also is there a difference between "unisex clothes" and "non-binary" ?

Probably not I don't really concern myself with it, but the idea is if a boy wants to pick a dress he likes, he's able to buy it without it being a "Girl clothing item."

You have mentioned those huge waiting lines for some time now friend. Why does it take 3 years to set up an appointment if I may ask? When the waiting period is a year?

Well the influx of people who are going to them is mainly the problem I've heard. Some people attribute it to "transtrenders" which are supposedly people that transition because it's trendy? I have no clue and I just find it a shame since it can hurt a lot of people if you have to wait that long. I definitely had a nervous breakdown because I had to wait more than 6 months for my first appointment.

As for athletics, unfortunately, it is not the same. The upper body of the average man that never goes to the gym has a beer belly etc is as strong as a fit woman. Men are like 50% stronger than women or something. I don't know how those transition hormones etc work but I don't think (I.e. opinion, I haven't studied that) they take out all the physical advantages male body has over female body and I don't think they confer all the mental and emotional advantages the female brain has over the male brain. Like how women are able to see more details from the corner of their vision or have a far more precise ability to "Read" the mood etc.

Well idk I'm not a biologist so I don't know the full details, but say I've been on hormones for 2 years now my muscles degrade to average biological female levels, fat distributes to the hips and places where it's normally on the biological females. Your mind also changes you're emotions are geared differently and perspiration even gets altered! Now there's so many factors to this debate on the one side you have pretty average amateur sporters like myself who do not have a genetic advantage like say professional athletes might have. While it might be thought of unfair for these professional athletes to compete in amateur sports. But I think in this debate it's way overestimated the 'advantage' I might have or any other girl who has been on hormones for a long period of time, any 'advantage' like brain wise or body wise is negligible. And I know there are exceptions to this rule(That one UFC fighter), but that's the case with everything. If any transgender is going to do sports it should be done 2 years into their hormone treatment, and I think barring people like myself playing amateur sports is frankly ridiculous I'm not going to have any advantage over my teammates. And if I play with guys which would just be cruel frankly, I'd get crushed in a heartbeat.

Just on a quick side note since I didn't know where else to put it but most people who are transgender I've heard in studies I can look for them if you want me to but show that if you are born as one sex but you are transgender you will have more in common brain wise with the opposite sex. So that kind of negates the whole mood reading or corner of their vision which isn't like an RPG trait all women get conferred on them at birth.

And the whole penis debate I mean here you have to be approved by a council of psychologists before you can start transitioning which takes at least 1 to 2 years of talking to a psychologist. And only then can you change your name/sex and start hormones. And I'm not entirely sure if the people in the link in Liverpool with the stickers got the memo but at least here we take hormones to get rid of what we have under our skirts and it all stops working. This is a very personal issue for a lot of people, I'm not sure if I want to talk about it myself, but for the sake of argument, I don't honestly care what someone has in their pants. If it's a penis and they are actually transgender and transition then 90% of them will be taking hormones that stop them from working anyway.

[alhoon]

that's not how that works, friend. not in a social context, physically, I decide if you live or die, sure, assuming I can kill you, but socially, on the basis of consent, do call me what I like or you don't call me, it's simple.

ahve you ever had 100s of people call you names bi-weekly? no? it drains you.


it's not good for soceity.

it wasn't directed at you, but you should it's a nice place.

If my belif is I get to her, and hers is I can't hers wins, because it's about her. otherwise those two opinions are equal.

This applies to myself, and as it applies to me or my property, what I say goes.

You control what comes out your mouth, burt that doesn't mean it can't violate my cosnent.

Thankfully, no, I haven't had people 100s of people calling me names in a weekly basis. What you describe is harassment, it's not one person referring to you by the other pronoun on the street.
I would agree that is not nice to hear two people talking about you behind your back saying "look at him in these boots, he looks ridiculous". But I don't think it is comparable to the emotional trauma that comes from non-consensual sex.
Even a single woman that forces herself to sleep with the boss she doesn't find physically attractive in order to keep her job or get hired is sharing something very personal with him, engages in acts that require extended and very intrusive physical contact. And I am talking here about a woman without a significant other that chose to have sex with her boss out of necessity\ambition and consents to those acts even if she is not into it. There is emotional trauma attached to it, and being a "gold-digger" comes with the emotional baggage that such trauma brings.

So, please stop with the comparisons of "mispronouncing me deliberately is like rape". This is by far not the only example of consent being violated. Like when you are drafted to become a conscript forced to risk your life whether you consent or not. Or when the city takes over your property to build a bigger road. Or when you are told to allow a pregnant woman to cut into the line, taking your spot without your consent.
Or... when you find (straight and cis) women using the men's bathroom because the women bathroom is all full and they didn't have to wait, forcing you to wait because you can't use the urinals in presence of women (<=== happens to me often in the ships I use).
My point is... no, both sides consent on sex is obviously mandatory. Consent in some other things? No, it's not.
Whether mispronouncing should fall in the first category or the second? You and the UK legal system says it should be in the first. Well, if I was a UK voter I would be voting for the other option.

And I know there are exceptions to this rule(That one UFC fighter), but that's the case with everything. If any transgender is going to do sports it should be done 2 years into their hormone treatment,

I was not talking about highschool champions, more like Olympic games or national championships. Remember those Eastern Germany gals that were on hormones (while totally fine with their gender) to alter their body so they could have the muscles of a man? A trans woman that heads for the elite teams would simply neglect part of the hormone treatment on purpose. What I mean is that even men use testosterone as doping.

If a transsexual woman wants to get a good athletic scholarship as a woman she would blow out of the water the women that are biologically female simply by not going through the same hormonal therapy you described. You also mentioned "My muscles degrade to average biological female levels." One way to think of it is... why let the muscles degrade only to train for 3 hours per day to build them up again? The answer is "because male bodies are stronger".

Also, you talked about mental changes. Do those include things like the insane pain tolerance women have or the "big-screen" vision they have? Or these are physical?

About the huge waiting lists: So... it's simply a matter of not having enough doctors? why don't you train more such therapists then? I would think that if that is getting so much more business for years, then psychologists and therapists would focus on that to increase their clients. Personally I am against rush decisions and I believe there should be some time spent in therapy before the hormones start... but 3 years waiting to get into a 2 year treatment? When the waiting time is more than the actual time spent in treatment something is wrong with the system.

[LadyKætten]

Yeah the waiting time is rather ridiculous for sure and it's good to shed off the people who aren't actually transgender, but it has a lot of adverse effects on those who are and they feel time is of the essence. And like these sorts of things are handled by the government so I'm guessing why they don't prioritize it since you can't have a private transgender psychologist business? Idk I'm not informed enough to make an opinion on it. I'm just lucky I got in a long time ago.

To go back on your point though this insane pain tolerance is something experienced by women who have gone through labour and even that varies from person to person I don't know what you mean with the big-screen vision? I've personally not really heard of it before and although I know that doesn't mean it may not exist it's probably so negligible. In that sense I don't see what the point is, I'm a woman there's a ton of variety between women, there is a ton of variety between men and there's a ton of variety between the both of them mixed together. I might have a much higher pain tolerance than some of my friends I don't see that as some kind of proof of a big gap between the sexes. It just shows on average that one is more pain tolerant, but there can be outliers and the likes between them.

Besides that I mean I guess I know what you mean with the hormonal abuse, but in that sense sure there should be restrictions. Also just to clarify me saying my muscles degrade means I can't get them back by doing push-ups, for one I can't even really do them. But also your metabolism and the way you grow muscles changes as well, it's a lot harder to keep looking jacked (No idea why you would want to) if you're on hormones for so long and eventually cut out the Testosterone entirely out of your life. (Surgical Operations) Now I can't crawl inside of the head of a top athlete but if that person is all well and truly trans, I do not know why they would do that to themselves, as their sense of self would/should be greater than their sense of "Winning."

Going the other way around though, trans men might also have an advantage considering they lack any estrogen and are testosterone machines. Have you ever seen the guns on a trans guy? They can punch someone's lights out no problem. hahah

[Himster]

Welcome to TWC.

I have no clue and I just find it a shame since it can hurt a lot of people if you have to wait that long. I definitely had a nervous breakdown because I had to wait more than 6 months for my first appointment.

The three years is a ridiculous waiting time.
But six months sounds rather reasonable. You mention the trendsexuals, I think this is a good idea as it allows them time to reflect and decide that the painful process is not for them.

If any transgender is going to do sports it should be done 2 years into their hormone treatment, and I think barring people like myself playing amateur sports is frankly ridiculous I'm not going to have any advantage over my teammates. And if I play with guys which would just be cruel frankly, I'd get crushed in a heartbeat.

I mean, yeah. But it seems so arbitrary. I think the military thing is related too. 2 years? Surely the hormones have different affects on different individuals. I'd prefer a system where each individual case is judged individually, even if that is absurdly impractical. Then there are transfolk who don't want to take hormones, what do they do?

So I dunno. I'm just going to agree because there are too many variables, so I agree but protest.

Just on a quick side note since I didn't know where else to put it but most people who are transgender I've heard in studies I can look for them if you want me to but show that if you are born as one sex but you are transgender you will have more in common brain wise with the opposite sex. So that kind of negates the whole mood reading or corner of their vision which isn't like an RPG trait all women get conferred on them at birth.

I dunno, I think generalizations exist and endure because they possess predictive qualities that are more practical than their alternatives. Maintaining gender attributes as the "norm", I think, is acceptable as long as people keep in mind that they are in fact generalizations; not absolute truths and that non-compliant individuals are unnatural deviants. My parents for example are reversed from traditional norms: my father is more caring and nurturing while my mother is a more aggressive go-getter. I'm not surprised that transfolks also don't follow the dictates of biologically determined roles. I've always thought of the gender "binary" as more of a spectrum anyway.

The penis thing, that's a nice way to put it.
I'm afraid most people still care what others have in their pants. Ambiguity around that issue can be quite discomforting for them.

Exactly the same way as I can't impose my beliefs on you, you don't get to impose your beliefs to me. You can choose how you call yourself, not how others call you.

that's not how that works.

That's exactly how it works.

on the basis of consent, do call me what I like or you don't call me, it's simple.

That simply sounds insane. I'm sorry, but it's so anti-liberal and alien it's practically incomprehensible. I can't choose what other people think of me. What kind of twisted world would it be if everyone could only say things their interlocutor "likes"?
If you are deliberately trying to encourage transphobia: congratulations. This is precisely the optimal strategy. If you have a different intent then...

If my belif is I get to her, and hers is I can't hers wins, because it's about her. otherwise those two opinions are equal.

This applies to myself, and as it applies to me or my property, what I say goes.

You control what comes out your mouth, burt that doesn't mean it can't violate my cosnent.

OMG it gets worse. "Wrong think is comparable to rape"?

I really can’t see non-binary clothing coming to Northern Ireland any time soon to be honest.

You'll see. Turning all of the protestants gay is the main part of a republican plot to alter the demographics to ensure the inevitable reunification of Ireland. You guys are already led by an angry lesbian looking "person", so I think it's pretty obvious which way things are going. Orange sashes are just a few colours short of being Rainbow sashes.

Should they, or should they not, be imprisoned for saying women don’t have penises?

I don't like agreeing with you, but....

should I be forced, on pain of government force, to treat biological men as women.

I think socially enforced minimum levels of politeness would be nice. Haven't you seen Breakfast on Pluto with my boy Cillian Murphy? If you haven't, that's your homework now.
But I agree on the fact that Orwellian enforcement of wrong think is fundamentally unacceptable.

[Aexodus]

Politeness can only ever be socially enforced

You'll see. Turning all of the protestants gay is the main part of a republican plot to alter the demographics to ensure the inevitable reunification of Ireland. You guys are already led by an angry lesbian looking "person", so I think it's pretty obvious which way things are going. Orange sashes are just a few colours short of being Rainbow sashes.

You really don’t like NI do ya

[Himster]

Politeness can only ever be socially enforced

I suppose. But there could be an argument made that consistent/coordinated impoliteness might constitute harrassment. There's a blurry line that needs to be addressed.

You really don’t like NI do ya

Does anyone?

[Aexodus]

Well not really, if I refuse to shake your hand all the time, it’s not really harassement. But yeah if you follow someone around and repeatedly harass them that’s out of order. The definition is ‘persistent/repeated actions intended to distress/alarm an individual’

[alhoon]

Yeah the waiting time is rather ridiculous for sure and it's good to shed off the people who aren't actually transgender, but it has a lot of adverse effects on those who are and they feel time is of the essence. And like these sorts of things are handled by the government so I'm guessing why they don't prioritize it since you can't have a private transgender psychologist business? Idk I'm not informed enough to make an opinion on it. I'm just lucky I got in a long time ago.

Why you can't have a private transgender psychologist business when there are so many on the waiting list. Coming to that... why are there so many in the waiting list?
Do you have people from abroad coming there to transition and check therapists? I know it was a thing 15-20 years ago, where people from Greece were heading to Netherlands for a sex change.

About the differences, it was just curiosity about how those changes and hormones act. By "big-screen" vision, I meant that man vision is more "focused"; we perceive less detail than a woman outside of the area we focus. A man has to look up to see another's hat and then look down to another's shoes to see the shoes. A woman can take a glance and "scan" the other one in whole. I don't know how to explain it better.

About the top athletes... as I said they do the hormonal thing to be top athletes not because they are trans. There have been issues in the past with people that wanted to change sex just in order to compete with women and break women national records while they were below the top 10 in men rankings. The same reason why the USSR gals were abusing male hormones.
Victory > health.

Now, another thing (I am not asking you specifically LK, I am asking everyone's opinion): Jenner.
If we count Jenner as a woman, there would be decades for another woman to break the 1976 record Jenner set as a man. I don't think pre-transition athletic records should be counted for one's current sex.

Regardless you set another interesting question LK: A woman transitioning to man is supposed to take a lot of testosterone and hormones... which is considered doping. What happens with them? Isn't it completely unfair to have them compete with women that aren't taking tons of hormones?
I think that people that are transitioning to men and take hormones or are transitioning to women (meaning they can easily develop muscle by dropping their hormones) both need to compete with men.