Lets talk about "integration on western society"

[Papay]

Here is a topic to speak about integration on western society. For me integration in western society comes if you observe two things: First knowing the local language and secondly not causing crime and trying to find a job just like the majority of the locals.

How do you define integration?

[joethepro36]

Primarily as a 1st gen, assimilating into the nation's culture and speaking the language. This means changing to fit the country in terms of culture to try and be as similar as you can to the native population of said country. I also think this means taking a religion that is similar to the host nation and over generations, genetically mixing into the population instead of only keeping to your own ethnic group. Put simply, it's the merging of one's humanity into the nation over time, rather than just moving the location you live in.

Not committing crime and working are a given regardless of integration tbh.

[athanaric]

Primarily as a 1st gen, assimilating into the nation's culture and speaking the language. This means changing to fit the country in terms of culture to try and be as similar as you can to the native population of said country. I also think this means taking a religion that is similar to the host nation and over generations, genetically mixing into the population instead of only keeping to your own ethnic group. Put simply, it's the merging of one's humanity into the nation over time, rather than just moving the location you live in.

Not committing crime and working are a given regardless of integration tbh.

Exactly. If you follow these suggestions, you'll experience a lot of goodwill from the natives, even those skeptical of immigration.
I would also add "not lobbying to have more of your (ethnic/religious) kind imported into the host country", "not badmouthing the natives at every opportunity" and "not demanding special treatment", but those should be a given as well. Even though some individuals make a career out of behaving like that.

[Diocle]

How do you define integration?

Falling in love with the nation you have chosen to live in.

I think it's the minimal requirement for people asking to be part of a community whose ancestors have battled full centuries (in case of Italy we talk of at least 2.700 years) to defend and create it.
In other words, I'd ask to any newcomer to love the institutions, the language, the flag, the laws, the moral and ethical values, the history, the culture, the art, the food, the landscape, the people of the nation he has chosen and in case of war if he's ready to die to defend such things.

[95thrifleman]

Falling in love with the nation you have chosen to live in.

I think it's the minimal requirement for people asking to be part of a community whose ancestors have battled full centuries (in case of Italy we talk of at least 2.700 years) to defend and create it.
In other words, I'd ask to any newcomer to love the institutions, the language, the flag, the laws, the moral and ethical values, the history, the culture, the art, the food, the landscape, the people of the nation he has chosen and in case of war if he's ready to die to defend such things.

Well that's bloody stupid, considering that many people who are natives of nations do not love their nations.

[PointOfViewGun]

Integration is not assimilation. It is merely becoming a functioning member of the society. For that, you simply need language skills and become a law abiding citizen. That's integration. That's what any modern democratic state would require.

[Aanker]

As Setekh says, it’s about fulfilling basic functionality criteria such as earning an income, paying taxes, speaking the language and observing local laws. It’s certainly not assimilation or blending into the dominant culture, as that sort of erases the point of immigration anyway. Companies looking to recruit foreign talent, for example, might specifically want someone with a differing perspective and experiences. Society as a whole grows richer from the competition of ideas and culture: that’s why we don’t eat blood pie, salted herring or slabs of cooked roots on a daily basis in my country anymore, and instead enjoy far superior dishes such as pasta, hamburgers and spicy currys.

Integration isn’t a one-way street, and it shouldn’t be. That doesn’t mean though (as the far right strawman often goes) that all cultural practices, whether foreign or domestic, should be allowed. In a truly liberal democracy, the rights of the individual are paramount and so any behaviour that endangers or harms fellow citizens will naturally be prohibited.

[95thrifleman]

I have to roll my eyes when nationalists talk about intergration as they always want immigrants to meet a higher standard than natives.

I am 38 years old, with the exception of 4 years in Germany when my father was based at RAF Brugen, I have spent my whole life in the UK. My mothers familly are a mix of Irish on he mum's side and saxon on her dad's with a lineage that can be confirmed to at least the 12th century. Both sides of my father's family have nordic ancestory and my nan spent alot of time tracing our family an managed to link it to the great heathen invasion of 865.

I am white, christened into the catholic church and despite some dabbling when I was in 6th form live a happily straight life with my fiance and step-daughter and will be married in September. I tend to vote tory and I m a staunch royalist and supporter of our millitary.

As far as the nationlist groups are concerned, and our friend diocle, I tick the right boxes for someone who belongs in this country.

Thing is I do NOT love the UK. I love Lancashire, I love the north and to certain extent I love England but Wales, Scotland and NI? Couldn't really care less to be honest.

Let's look at Diocle's points shall we? "In other words, I'd ask to any newcomer to love the institutions, the language, the flag, the laws, the moral and ethical values, the history, the culture, the art, the food, the landscape, the people of the nation he has chosen and in case of war if he's ready to die to defend such things."

Language? Which one? English? It's a trade tongue, an evolution of saxon german, norman french, church latin and norse. Over the years we have adapted words from imigrant cultures. Glitch is yiddish, patio is spainish, kareoke is japanese, typhoon is chinese, pukka is indian.
Don't even get me started on the french, german and latin words used in every day english.

The flag? The union flag is just the flags of the four patron saints of the four countries united under the crown. The scots just use the flag of st andrew and republican irish whine it represents oppression prefering the flag of ireland while the nationalists fly the red hand of ulster all the time and the english dump it for the st george flag first chance they get and the welsh ignore it completely and prefer thier little winged lizard.

You want imigrants to love our flag when nobody in the UK bloody does unless it's an olympic year?

The moral and ethical values? Well that is constantly changing, I have a gay friend old enough to remember a lover being locked up for no other reason than being gay. That's living memory for crying out loud. look at British history and our moral compass is a bloody pendulum swinging from violent oppression to liberal freedom and back again.

The history? Well germany and russia made good efforts with the holocaust and stalin. America gets full marks for their wholesale genocide of the native americans but no nation can beat Britain for a history of oppression, genocide, wars of aggression and persecution. The French and Spainish come in 2nd and 3rd with honourable mentions to the romans and portugeese but British history is a thousand years of pages soaked in so much blood they still stin the floor to this day.

The culture? Two words: Morris Dancing.... we'll move on i think

The food? Don't get me wrong, British food is wholesome and sustaining. If i was going to wipe out the population of a small catholic nation next door or embark on the rape and explotation of an entire culture of "darkies" then cottage pie or lancashire hotpot is the meal of the day. Lets face it, nobody praises the UK for it's food and don't get me started on haggis.

The landscape? Now this is something I do love, in all fairness. The UK is a beautiful nation shame about the people.

Art? We are famous for a pickled cow and a messed up bed...... ok lets move on

Why the hell should I expect an immigrant to love and be proud of the things we are not?

[mishkin]

Well that's bloody stupid, considering that many people who are natives of nations do not love their nations.

Their (ultra-nationalists) response to this is the expulsion of subjects who do not "love" their country. ("If you do not like your country, leave it". Heard multiple times)

[95thrifleman]

Their (ultra-nationalists) response to this is the expulsion of subjects who do not "love" their country.

The history books speak of what lies down that path...

[mishkin]

The history books speak of what lies down that path...

Glorious days in their opinion. (Today, July 18, many compatriots celebrate the nationalist coup carried out in my country).

I await an explanation from Papay to "why integration is necessary" / what he thinks about what Setekh pointed out.

[95thrifleman]

Here is a topic to speak about integration on western society. For me integration in western society comes if you observe two things: First knowing the local language and secondly not causing crime and trying to find a job just like the majority of the locals.

How do you define integration?

I'd add that learning to count would also be good for intergration, as you listed THREE things not two. Not causing crime and finding a job are two different things.

I do agree with you, my missus is a 999 ect and she often has issues with people tring to call an ambulance with limited knowledge of the English language. She has to call for an interpreter.

I do find the extra intergration demands from nationalists rather hypocritical. Especialy the americans, american nationalists are a special breed of hypocrite.

George Washington didn't give a damn if the hessians that switched sides and joined the continental army spoke english or not. When the Union recruited irish immigrants straight off the boat to fight the civil war, nobody asked them to pass a history exam.

The chinese who helped build the massive US rail network where not expected or required to read Tom Sawyer and answer questions on american culture.

[Diocle]

Their (ultra-nationalists) response to this is the expulsion of subjects who do not "love" their country. ("If you do not like your country, leave it". Heard multiple times)

Well said! Integration means asking to be part of the national community, to be part of any national community you must love it. It's not very much to ask.

If you want just to work in a country you can do it as you like, when you like and at least in Europe, whereever you like, but it doesn't mean you're asking to be integrated with that country, it would be foolish thinking otherwise.

Nicolas Sarkozy once wrote:

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"If you want to become French, you speak French, you live like the French.

We will no longer settle for integration that does not work, we will require assimilation.

"Once you become French, your ancestors are the Gauls. 'I love France, I learned the history of France, I see myself as French'," is what you must say, he added.
.

and then:

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France is not a story, it is not a race; France is a community of values.
.

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If living in France bothers some people, they should feel free to leave the country.
.

Of course I agree with those quotes and I remind you that Sarkozy can't be suspected of being racist, or fascist, or even an ultra-nationalist (my God what a lunatic definition!), he is just a moderate Gaullist French ex-politician and ex-President of the Republic, not even properly 100% French, for family roots, ethnicity, or bloodline.

[PointOfViewGun]

Well said! Integration means asking to be part of the national community, to be part of any national community you must love it. It's not very much to ask. If you want just to work in a country you can do it as you like, when you like and at least in Europe, whereever you like, but it doesn't mean you're asking to be integrated with that country, it would be foolish thinking otherwise.
Nicolas Sarkozy once wrote:
and then:
Of course I agree with those quotes and I remind you that Sarkozy can't be suspected of being racist, or fascist, or ultra-nationalist (my God what a lunatic definition!), he is just a moderte right wing French ex-politician.

No, you don't need to love the country to be part of its community. That's just creating arbitrary requirements for something simple.

[Diocle]

No, you don't need to love the country to be part of its community. That's just creating arbitrary requirements for something simple.

For your information, we, in Europe, think that any requirement democratically established and shared by the national community which has decided it, can't be considered "arbitrary", you may consider it wrong, because not corresponding to your minoritary and personal political values, you may decide to fight against it, in the forms permitted by the democratic laws of the nation, but you're not allowed to call it "arbitrary". In fact NOBODY in France accused Sarkozy for those quotes of setting an "arbitrary" political line on immigration.

[95thrifleman]

Sarkozy, the same Sarkozy up on bribery and corruption charges? Great role model there.....

Why are all the right wing heroes criminals? Tommy Robinson, Sarkozy....

For your information, we, in Europe, think that any requirement democratically established and shared by the national community which has decided it, can't be considered "arbitrary", you may consider it wrong, because not corresponding to your minoritary and personal political values, you may decide to fight against it, in the forms permitted by the democratic laws of the nation, but you're not allowed to call it "arbitrary". In fact NOBODY in France accused Sarkozy for those quotes of setting an "arbitrary" political line on immigration.

You are now speaking for ALL of Europe?

[mishkin]

Just saying, none of us has the obligation to speak the language of our country of origin / residence unless we want to work for the state. I could spend the rest of my days in Spain without speaking Spanish (or any other recognized language or the Spanish state). The only obligation we have is to comply with the laws of the country. Why should we demand more from other people?

[PointOfViewGun]

For your information, we, in Europe, think that any requirement democratically established and shared by the national community which has decided it, can't be considered "arbitrary", you may consider it wrong, because not corresponding to your minoritary and personal political values, you may decide to fight against it, in the forms permitted by the democratic laws of the nation, but you're not allowed to call it "arbitrary". In fact NOBODY in France accused Sarkozy for those quotes of setting an "arbitrary" political line on immigration.

I already considered it to be arbitrary and called it so accordingly. There doesn't seem to be a citizenship oath in France involving requirement of love for the country either. So, what are you cooking?

[Diocle]

Just saying, none of us has the obligation to speak the language of our country of origin / residence unless we want to work for the state. I could spend the rest of my days in Spain without speaking Spanish (or any other recognized language or the Spanish state). The only obligation we have is to comply with the laws of the country. ..

This because you're not a foreign immigrant coming from outside your nation, so your state (and for now, even the whole Union, I suppose) has the burdensome legal obligation to keep you as you are.

So, what are you cooking?

Weird question! Anyway, as you ask, actually I'm cooking a divine dish of 'Gnocchetti al Pesto'.

[Genghis Skahn]

Language? Which one? English? It's a trade tongue, an evolution of saxon german, norman french, church latin and norse. Over the years we have adapted words from imigrant cultures. Glitch is yiddish, patio is spainish, kareoke is japanese, typhoon is chinese, pukka is indian.
Don't even get me started on the french, german and latin words used in every day english.

Most of what you're stating are loan words, and virtually every single language on the planet has them, so I have no idea what you're getting on with here, it certainly doesn't mean the UK is more multicultural because of it. It just means that the English language borrowed useful words for new ideas that didn't previously exist in the English language, something every language on the planet has done since the dawn of speech. It's quite frankly a silly point to make with reference to immigration and integration... Even xenophobes use loan words.

Moreover, while people still speak Welsh, Scots Gaelic and Gaelic to this day, those numbers are astronomically low with respect to the percentage of English speakers(as well Manx and Cornish are dead languages AFAIK). Overwhelmingly, the people of the UK speak English, and for much of the island it's been that way for a very long time. When Diocle says to "love the language", there's really no alternative for any immigrant other than English, for you to suggest otherwise is silliness. I'd estimate that <1% of the immigrants the UK receives will even attempt to learn the UK's other minority languages, not only because they're rather difficult to learn, but also because those languages will have extremely limited utility to an immigrant to the UK(or anyone else for that matter). As well, with respect to naturalization of immigrant citizens, the language the authorities would prefer you to speak is English. Let's not pretend otherwise. English has been dominant throughout most of the island for a very long time, even before the Kingdom of England was a thing. So yeah, your point is simply ridiculous.

Also, English didn't start out as a trade language at all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language

English is a West Germanic language that was first spoken in early medieval England and is now a global lingua franca.^[4][5] Named after the Angles, one of the Germanic tribes that migrated to England, it ultimately derives its name from the Anglia (Angeln) peninsula in the Baltic Sea. It is closely related to the Frisian languages, but its vocabulary has been significantly influenced by other Germanic languages, particularly Norse (a North Germanic language), as well as by Latin and French.^[6]
English has developed over the course of more than 1,400 years. The earliest forms of English, a set of Anglo-Frisian dialects brought to Great Britain by Anglo-Saxon settlers in the 5th century, are called Old English. Middle English began in the late 11th century with the Norman conquest of England and was a period in which the language was influenced by French.^[7] Early Modern English began in the late 15th century with the introduction of the printing press to London, the printing of the King James Bible and the start of the Great Vowel Shift.^[8]

English started out as the language spoken by the Anglo-Saxon settlers of the UK. Over time, exposure to the Romanized population/legacy of UK, the viking age, and the Norman conquest caused it to evolve. I think that your classification of it as a "trade language" is patently false unless we're talking about modern times(where English is the lingua franca of planet earth). It's roots lie in the Anglo-Saxon settlers who came to the UK, and it eventually became the dominant language of the island, in no small part due to the numerous conquests made by the Anglo-Saxons. Simply being influenced by other cultures/languages and evolving over time doesn't make English a trade tongue. In fact, the only time the words "trade" or "franca" are mentioned in the wikipedia article are in reference to Modern English. It's really not some "multicultural" language at all: it was brought there by Anglo-Saxon immigrants/invaders and became the dominant language of the island via their conquest of the island, and was subsequently influenced by outside forces, but it's genesis wasn't that of a trade language at all. It would not become a trade language until more than a millennium later. That change from a localized language to a full on global lingua franca, was once again, greatly driven by the British Empire's many conquests, just like how Old English's geographic distribution across the UK had also been spurred on by their conquest of the island.

Also, since Brythonic languages predate Anglo-saxon presence in England, norman french, church latin and norse, their language(s) also probably influenced the formation of English, since the Anglo-Saxons came to rule over Brythonic populations(how much vulgar latin they spoke or how much brythonic they spoke, I'm not sure)--so you missed that point. Weird for someone who seems intent on portraying English as some weird multicultural language that it isn't. By that logic Spanish is a trade language too, since it's been influenced by Germanic languages(Visigothic kingdom in Spain), Arabs, the French(being nextdoor neighbors usually means lots of loanwords and influencing one another's language) and of course Latin and Vulgar Latin(where the language's roots lie).

Art? We are famous for a pickled cow and a messed up bed...... ok lets move on

If you mean "art" solely in the narrow definition of visual art(painters), then maybe the UK isn't as famous as Italy or other Continental nations(I'm not an expert)--but if you mean "art" in the broadest sense(ie. the arts, meaning any creative endeavor such as writing, theatre, music, sculpting, etc.) then you're painfully uneducated about what you're talking about. The UK produced some of the most talented and prolific writers in history(Shakespeare has been translated into how many languages?). The literary tradition(and hence the artistic tradition) of the UK is heavyhanded in nature when compared to many other nations(we could seriously be here all day if we chose to list off all the famous English writers), and it still produces great writers to this day.

As well, the Book of Kell, an EXTREMELY artistic version of the bible done in the style of traditional Celtic art is quite simply a masterpiece that's greatly treasured to this day(and even preserved at Dublin). Where was it created? Well, much to the chagrin of Irish/Celtic nationalists, it was written and drawn in the Northwest of England(I believe south of Scotland, but it's pretty damn close if so. If not, it could be in the southwest of Scotland itself). If we wanna talk about Celtic art which predates the arrival of Romans, Anglo-Saxons and the eventual genesis of the Kingdom of England, then the surviving examples of Celtic art we have can be rather magnificent in nature(eg. battersea shield).

For you to belittle the entirety of the UK's artistic history is either a sign that you're being intellectually dishonest, or that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

The history? Well germany and russia made good efforts with the holocaust and stalin. America gets full marks for their wholesale genocide of the native americans but no nation can beat Britain for a history of oppression, genocide, wars of aggression and persecution. The French and Spainish come in 2nd and 3rd with honourable mentions to the romans and portugeese but British history is a thousand years of pages soaked in so much blood they still stin the floor to this day.

Yes, we all know that the British were gigantic s in the past. However, it's quite frankly rather SJW of you to solely focus on everything oppressive the UK has ever done. There are also many interesting parts of the UK's history which have nothing to do with genocide or slavery.