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Thread: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

  1. #61

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    That's a mistake on their part as multiple other sources point at the opposite.
    Reuters reproduces the story
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1K713Z
    YeniSafac also says they're in custody "pending trial on suspicion of illegal entry and attempted military espionage".
    https://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/tu...ustody-3436613

    Can you point us to some of those sources you mention?

  2. #62

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by kyrtgr View Post
    Reuters reproduces the story
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1K713Z
    YeniSafac also says they're in custody "pending trial on suspicion of illegal entry and attempted military espionage".
    https://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/tu...ustody-3436613

    Can you point us to some of those sources you mention?
    Both links you posted are almost verbatim replica of the Hurriyet Daily News link. While Reuters at least provides a reference it's very troubling to see the standards major news agencies have come down to.

    Turkey arrests Greek soldiers on espionage charges
    A court in the northwestern Turkish city of Edirne has ordered the detention of two Greek soldiers, charging them on suspicion of "military espionage."
    Turkey puts Greek soldiers on trial in tit-for-tat row
    A Turkish court has refused to release two Greek soldiers who strayed across the border and now face trial on charges of espionage and illegal entry.
    Greek MP calls for prisoner swap with Turkey
    A senior Greek politician has suggested that Athens hand over eight Turkish servicemen wanted by Ankara on coup charges in exchange for two Greek border guards jailed in Turkey on charges of alleged espionage.
    Turkey and Greece ratchet up tension in the Mediterranean
    On March 27th a Turkish court denied bail to two Greek soldiers arrested weeks earlier after crossing the border with Turkey. The soldiers say they strayed into Turkish territory because of thick snow and fog. Turkish prosecutors have charged them with espionage: Alexis Tsipras, the Greek prime minister, compared Mr Erdogan to a sultan and accused him of turning the men into hostages. Turkey has repeatedly leaned on Greece to extradite eight Turkish soldiers who fled across the Aegean after a botched coup in 2016.

    Here the Hurriyet Daily News contradicting itself by the way:
    Two Greek soldiers who ‘accidentally’ crossed into Turkey arrested
    A Turkish court on March 2 placed two Greek soldiers under arrest on espionage charges after they illegally crossed into Turkey, state media reported, in a move that risks a new flaring of tensions between Ankara and Athens.
    Sufficient enough?
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  3. #63

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Both links you posted are almost verbatim replica of the Hurriyet Daily News link. While Reuters at least provides a reference it's very troubling to see the standards major news agencies have come down to.

    Turkey arrests Greek soldiers on espionage charges

    Turkey puts Greek soldiers on trial in tit-for-tat row

    Greek MP calls for prisoner swap with Turkey

    Turkey and Greece ratchet up tension in the Mediterranean

    Here the Hurriyet Daily News contradicting itself by the way:
    Two Greek soldiers who ‘accidentally’ crossed into Turkey arrested

    Sufficient enough?
    Yeap. It's sufficient to show that they are not charged with anything yet and not even a trial date has been set.
    All your links say they are pending trial on an unknown date. When the public prosecutor files charges for something the same time a trial date is set by the court. For now they are detained on "suspicions of trespassing and espionage". No indictment has been filed by the public prosecutor.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by kyrtgr View Post
    Yeap. It's sufficient to show that they are not charged with anything yet and not even a trial date has been set.
    All your links say they are pending trial on an unknown date. When the public prosecutor files charges for something the same time a trial date is set by the court. For now they are detained on "suspicions of trespassing and espionage". No indictment has been filed by the public prosecutor.
    Seriously? The sources literally say that they've been charged. All of them, save Economist, are written within the first few weeks after the soldiers were found in the military zone, hence, they've been awaiting trial. Sigh... They have been charged. Period.
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  5. #65

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-tu...-idUKKBN1K713V

    The judge ruled against the soldiers’ request to be freed, it said. The two soldiers have not yet been indicted.
    There is no indictment.

    An indictment (/ɪnˈdaɪtmənt/ in-DYT-mənt) is a formal accusation that a person has committed a crime.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indictment

    And the most interesting thing is that it is actually Erdogan who will decide if and when they are indicted. Not the turkish courts, Erdogan. What was that phrase in the "Midnight Express"? "My hands are tied by Ankara"

    http://www.ekathimerini.com/227940/a...are-extradited

    Erdogan: We could return Greek soldiers if 'Turkey's 8' are extradited
    Back in 1996, we should have kept the pilot and used him as a bargaining chip:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EBrmzSZz-E

    Osman Çiçekli would have become a Greek again by now .



    Interestingly enough, the second pilot's name was Naim Erdogan.
    Last edited by ioannis76; July 20, 2018 at 04:30 PM.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Seriously? The sources literally say that they've been charged. All of them, save Economist, are written within the first few weeks after the soldiers were found in the military zone, hence, they've been awaiting trial. Sigh... They have been charged. Period.
    You like talking about things you have no idea about. Being held on some charges is not the same as being officially charged. Your sources are dated on March and April. If they were officially charged by that time, then they'd be well into the trial now, or it could even be finished.

    Turkish criminal procedure code:
    https://www.unodc.org/res/cld/docume...edure_Code.pdf

    Definitions
    a) Suspect:The individual, who is under suspicion of having committed a crime, at the investigation phase
    b)Accused:The individual, who is under suspicion of having committed a crime, after the prosecution phase has started, and until the final judgment

    Article 170
    (1) The duty to file a public prosecution rests with the public prosecutor.
    (2) In cases where, at the end of the investigation phase, collected evidence constitute sufficient suspicion that a crime has been committed, then the public prosecutor shall prepare.
    (3) The indictment, addressed to the court that has subject matter jurisdiction and venue, shall contain :a) The identity of the suspect,b)His defense counsel,(...)

    Article 174
    (1)The trial court shall examine the whole document related to the investigation phase within fifteen days of the delivery of the indictment...
    (3)In cases where the indictment had not been returned the latest at the end of the time limit as indicated in subparagraph one,it shall be considered as accepted.

    Article 175
    (1) As soon as the indictment has been approved, the public claim shall be considered as filed and the phase of prosecution shall start.
    (2) After the indictment has been approved, the court shall set a day for the main trial and summons the individuals who should be present during the mean hearing.
    So, the public prosecutor files the indictment and, if it gets accepted at most 15 days later, the court sets a trial date. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAS HAPPENED YET.
    They only appear at court once a month when their release motion is examined. There is no ongoing trial, not a date set for it, not even an indictment. Period.
    Last edited by kyrtgr; July 20, 2018 at 07:30 PM.

  7. #67
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    @Setekh
    You reproduse the Turkish articles about the sa called espionage mision of those two soldiers.
    Espionage is an action that the persons they do that act carry no ID not anything on them that could expose who they are. Those two officers had their army uniforms with their rank insignias and carried their personal
    weapons. So calling those two as spies I think that you humiliate the spies all over the world!
    Espionage inside enemy terirory by 4 m!! They must be the worst spies ever! Also The border towers offer better view almost near Constantinople's suburbs because there are no opstacles to cut off the view! Also a Drone would that would fly on the border line would see even inside the Mosques of Adrianople! So...before you re-produse Turkish newspapers articles about espionage (the Court has NOT YET accused them with any accusation), i advice you to join the Turkish Army and serv in the Greek-Turkish borders to see with your eyes what is going on there! Untill then your opinion -because you are noy yet drafted to army to know what i am talking about- is useless in this matter! Watch my 1st video in my Sig...At least I was in a unit that was ready for war an hour after the allert in 1996 (NATO's record for an Armored Brigade)...and know the area much better than you just like every single soldier Greek or Turkish that served in that area in their military tour.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  8. #68

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by kyrtgr View Post
    You like talking about things you have no idea about. Being held on some charges is not the same as being officially charged. Your sources are dated on March and April. If they were officially charged by that time, then they'd be well into the trial now, or it could even be finished.
    Turkish criminal procedure code:
    https://www.unodc.org/res/cld/docume...edure_Code.pdf
    So, the public prosecutor files the indictment and, if it gets accepted at most 15 days later, the court sets a trial date. NONE OF THESE THINGS HAS HAPPENED YET.
    They only appear at court once a month when their release motion is examined. There is no ongoing trial, not a date set for it, not even an indictment. Period.
    Both Deutsche Welle and the Economist literally talk about the soldiers being charged, not being held on some charges.


    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    @Setekh
    You reproduse the Turkish articles about the sa called espionage mision of those two soldiers.
    Espionage is an action that the persons they do that act carry no ID not anything on them that could expose who they are. Those two officers had their army uniforms with their rank insignias and carried their personal
    weapons. So calling those two as spies I think that you humiliate the spies all over the world!
    Espionage inside enemy terirory by 4 m!! They must be the worst spies ever! Also The border towers offer better view almost near Constantinople's suburbs because there are no opstacles to cut off the view! Also a Drone would that would fly on the border line would see even inside the Mosques of Adrianople! So...before you re-produse Turkish newspapers articles about espionage (the Court has NOT YET accused them with any accusation), i advice you to join the Turkish Army and serv in the Greek-Turkish borders to see with your eyes what is going on there! Untill then your opinion -because you are noy yet drafted to army to know what i am talking about- is useless in this matter! Watch my 1st video in my Sig...At least I was in a unit that was ready for war an hour after the allert in 1996 (NATO's record for an Armored Brigade)...and know the area much better than you just like every single soldier Greek or Turkish that served in that area in their military tour.
    I haven't posted a single Turkish article...
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  9. #69

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Both Deutsche Welle and the Economist literally talk about the soldiers being charged, not being held on some charges.
    Deutsche Welle literally says it in the title and 1st sentence. And the Economist says they "face trial on charges of espionage and illegal entry". They could very much say they face charges on being alien invaders and it would make no difference until the public prosecutor officially charge them. The official charges can be different than those they were arrested on.
    And the issue is not that it is illegal (they can be held up to 12 months plus 6 months extension), it is that it's without reason. They crossed the border and got caught, fine. They were questioned multiple times, they were searched, their mobiles were examined. All these were done in the first month. The investigation process is over. What is the reason they're not officially charged and get on with the trial? Or release them if they are no charges to be pressed. They are just being held in a frozen process.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by kyrtgr View Post
    Deutsche Welle literally says it in the title and 1st sentence. And the Economist says they "face trial on charges of espionage and illegal entry". They could very much say they face charges on being alien invaders and it would make no difference until the public prosecutor officially charge them. The official charges can be different than those they were arrested on.
    And the issue is not that it is illegal (they can be held up to 12 months plus 6 months extension), it is that it's without reason. They crossed the border and got caught, fine. They were questioned multiple times, they were searched, their mobiles were examined. All these were done in the first month. The investigation process is over. What is the reason they're not officially charged and get on with the trial? Or release them if they are no charges to be pressed. They are just being held in a frozen process.
    Really? Wordplay? Both article explicitly point out that the soldiers have been charged. Just because they also say that they face trial on charges of espionage doesn't change that. Once you're charged you continue to face trial. It doesn't get anymore explicit than how Economist reported:
    Turkish prosecutors have charged them with espionage
    The court process in Turkey have always been way too long in Turkey. It's nothing new or special. You can argue that the process is slow but it's a lie to say that the two soldiers were not charged with anything.
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  11. #71

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Really? Wordplay? Both article explicitly point out that the soldiers have been charged. Just because they also say that they face trial on charges of espionage doesn't change that.
    Well, you said it yourself about my sources before I'll say it for yours: They are wrong. Or more accurately, you understand them wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Once you're charged you continue to face trial.
    No you're not. If at the investigation process the public prosecutor doesn't find any evidence the suspect is released and there is no trial.
    Article 103
    (2) During the investigation phase, if the public prosecutor deems that judicial control or arrest is no longer necessary, he shall release the suspect by his own motion. In instances where a decision on no ground for prosecution has been rendered, the suspect automatically will be released.
    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    You can argue that the process is slow but it's a lie to say that the two soldiers were not charged with anything.
    They were not. They are still suspects.

    Don't you have a lawyer you could ask instead of wasting our time here?

  12. #72
    Vanoi's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-dem...175741740.html

    Looks like Trump is demanding the release of the American pastor or Turkey will face large sanctions.
    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    Those who protect the right of terrorists to have Free Speech enable the bombings of innocents.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    It's about damned time the US has called out Turkish officials.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

  14. #74

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Strange that we haven't had a single post on the release of the Greek soldiers...
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  15. #75

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Read the post right above yours, Setekh.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Read the post right above yours, Setekh.
    Just one sentence? After all the fuss? ...
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  17. #77
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Just one sentence? After all the fuss? ...
    Don't worry when Greek border patrol will arrest a Turkish one we will not fuss in that case either.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; August 16, 2018 at 12:12 PM. Reason: Irrelevant part deleted.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


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