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Thread: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

  1. #1

    Default Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    So, Turkey seems to leave no opportunity to remind the world that it is a rogue state. This time, Greek soldiers who were captured under mysterious circumstances in the Greek Turkish border are still being held as hostages, without any charges, in a turkish maximum security prison, for more than 4 months.
    This article is from March. The two men are still detained, without any charges. Despite the fact that the Greek side has repeatedly requested their release, Turkey declines to do so, offering ridiculous excuses.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...held-in-turkey

    Turkey has often mentioned that the only way to release them would be for Greece to return the 8 members of the turkish armed forces who sought (and were granted) asylum in Greece, verifying once more its rogue state status.

    http://www.newgreektv.com/english-ne...e-a-fair-trial
    (ARTICLE FROM JULY 6th)


    It's quite interesting that anyone within Turkey can be arrested at any given time, and be held in prison over an indefinite period of time. It seems that the Midnight Express actually hit the spot there.

    Do you believe that Turkey is a rogue state for keeping foreign nationals as hostage?
    What do you think should be done in order to discourage Turkey from continuing this tradition of taking hostages? Should other states do the same to Turkey in retaliation?

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Hostages or Greek military personel conducting clandestine operations?

    Not being funny but when you capture foreign soldiers in your territory with no valid explanation for their presence then it's fair game to hold them for prisoner exchange.

    If this makes you a rogue state then the USA is the biggest rogue state of them all, since prisoner exchange was a regular thing during the cold war.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Hostages or Greek military personel conducting clandestine operations?

    Not being funny but when you capture foreign soldiers in your territory with no valid explanation for their presence then it's fair game to hold them for prisoner exchange.

    If this makes you a rogue state then the USA is the biggest rogue state of them all, since prisoner exchange was a regular thing during the cold war.
    Such incidents as troops patrolling borders and crossing into one another's territory are routine in the area. They are resolved within hours.
    In fact, a turkish workman crossed the border with a freaking excavator a while back:
    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/gre...-greece-131363
    He was returned within a couple of days.
    Turkey claimed that they still hadn't examined the troops cell phones, 4 months after the incident, which is ridiculous.
    The Greek troops are not the first hostages. Turkey has done the same thing with German and US citizens:

    Here is some more input on the issue:

    Turkey is now practicing the same sort of hostage diplomacy in which North Korea and Iran engage. Last July, Sigmar Gabriel, at the time Germany’s foreign minister, called out Turkey for arresting German citizens as hostages to win diplomatic concessions or to force Germans to self-censor. “The cases of Peter Steudtner, Deniz Yucel and Ms. [Mesale] Tolu are examples of the absurd accusations of terror propaganda that obviously are only meant to serve to silence every critical voice in Turkey ... and also voices from Germany,” he said.
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    The Erdogan regime has also targeted Americans. Turkey detained and now seeks 35 years in prison for American pastor Andrew Brunson on terrorism charges even though it has been able to provide no evidence to support such assertions. Serkan Golge, a Turkish-American NASA scientist, now serves 7.5 years in prison on equally spurious charges. In addition, Turkey has arrested a number of local employees of American diplomatic missions in Turkey, violating the ability of the U.S. embassy and its various consulates to function. Erdogan has also leveraged Turkish organizations in the United States and Europe to spy on those deemed insufficiently loyal to the Turkish strongman.

    Again, check the box on undemocratic cabals. Erdogan is an unrepentant strongman. He stands above the law, has embezzled billions, jailed journalists, and increasingly wields power with his immediate family to the detriment even of the political party he created.

    The problem with rogue leaders is what they lack in governing capacity, they make up for in conspiracy and provocation. That appears increasingly to be the case with regard to Greece: Earlier this month, Turkey detained two Greek soldiers whom Turkish officials say strayed into Turkish territory while patrolling a forested border region in poor weather. The continued detention of the Greek soldiers comes amidst Erdogan’s ire that a Greek court refuses to release asylum-seeking Turks who fled to Greece against the backdrop of Erdogan’s 2016 purges of the Turkish military. The Greek court, for its part, refused to deport the Turkish soldiers after the Turkish government was repeatedly unable to provide credible evidence showing their culpability in the 2016 abortive coup. That Turks would seek refuge in Greece does not surprise given the deterioration in Turkish civil society; the rate of Turks seeking asylum in Greece has increased 40-fold in just three years.

    Back to the two Greek soldiers whom Turkey now holds: Both Turkey and Greece quickly resolved past cases where Turks and Greeks strayed accidentally across their mutual border quickly at the local level, usually with communication among commanders along each zone of the border. This is what makes Turkey’s imprisonment of the Greeks a break with precedent. It is also impossible to dismiss the possibility that Turkey simply kidnapped the Greeks in much the same way that, in September 2014, Russian forces kidnapped an Estonian officer from within Estonia in order to pressure Russia’s smaller, Western-looking, and democratically-oriented neighbor.

    The situation becomes even more worrisome given Turkey’s increasing revanchism toward former Ottoman territories now part of Greece, Bulgaria, Syria, and Iraq. Visiting Greece last December, Erdogan spoke about his desire to revise the 95-year-old Treaty of Lausanne, which established the borders of modern Turkey. And, on March 11, he referred to the southern Bulgarian town of Kardzhali as within Turkey’s “spiritual boundaries.” Turkish newspapers have published maps depicting the vision of ultranationalists and Erdogan with regard to expanded Turkey.
    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...a-rogue-regime

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  4. #4

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Such incidents as troops patrolling borders and crossing into one another's territory are routine in the area. They are resolved within hours.
    Are you speaking in general or do you refer to Turkey and Greece?


    In fact, a turkish workman crossed the border with a freaking excavator a while back:
    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/gre...-greece-131363
    He was returned within a couple of days.
    Was he a soldier?

    Possibilities:
    1. Be incredibly stupid and get lost into the (almost) enemy territory;
    2. Try to accomplish the mission for which you were sent but get caught in the process.

  5. #5
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    This sounds like a kind of ransom-type situation.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    So, Turkey seems to leave no opportunity to remind the world that it is a rogue state. This time, Greek soldiers who were captured under mysterious circumstances in the Greek Turkish border are still being held as hostages, without any charges, in a turkish maximum security prison, for more than 4 months.
    This article is from March. The two men are still detained, without any charges. Despite the fact that the Greek side has repeatedly requested their release, Turkey declines to do so, offering ridiculous excuses.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...held-in-turkey
    Turkey has often mentioned that the only way to release them would be for Greece to return the 8 members of the turkish armed forces who sought (and were granted) asylum in Greece, verifying once more its rogue state status.
    http://www.newgreektv.com/english-ne...e-a-fair-trial
    (ARTICLE FROM JULY 6th)
    It's quite interesting that anyone within Turkey can be arrested at any given time, and be held in prison over an indefinite period of time. It seems that the Midnight Express actually hit the spot there.
    Do you believe that Turkey is a rogue state for keeping foreign nationals as hostage?
    What do you think should be done in order to discourage Turkey from continuing this tradition of taking hostages? Should other states do the same to Turkey in retaliation?
    The soldiers were caught over 200 meters inside the Turkish border in a military zone. They were found with video footage of the area according to their own testimony.
    They are not detained without a charge. The charges are trespassing military area and espionage.
    They're sent to Edirne Type F prison, which is a regular high-security prison for criminals in Turkey.
    In no country in the world, foreign soldiers would be let go easily after being found hundreds of meters deep in one's own territory.
    Do explain to us how demanding return of soldiers alleged to have taken part in a coup attempt means that Turkey is a rouge state?
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    I think if Greek troops found a pair of Turkish soldiers 200 meters on the Greek side of cyprus, with video footage of the area, they would be arrested and I somehow doubt there would be a thread here calling Greece a rogue state....

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    I think if Greek troops found a pair of Turkish soldiers 200 meters on the Greek side of cyprus, with video footage of the area, they would be arrested and I somehow doubt there would be a thread here calling Greece a rogue state....
    If you believe that you are beyond hope...these were not some kind of special infiltration units.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    The Turks wanted to have two hostages to exchange with the 8 Turks that requested asylum in Greece after the failed coup. Our government would love to do this but so far our judicial system has managed to give them the finger.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrotatos View Post
    If you believe that you are beyond hope...these were not some kind of special infiltration units.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    The Turks wanted to have two hostages to exchange with the 8 Turks that requested asylum in Greece after the failed coup. Our government would love to do this but so far our judicial system has managed to give them the finger.
    And you know they are not infiltration specialist why? The British SAS don't bloody advertise on operations, they hide under the guise of engineers or REME.

    During the cold war RAF and Army intel went into East Germany as part of sanctioned "touring" parties then go off the approved routes, concealing their identities. You'd have to be a fool or willfully ignorant to think Greece and Turkey do not send missions into each other's territory. Every nation does this in areas of tension and potential conflict.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRIXMIS

  10. #10

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Are you speaking in general or do you refer to Turkey and Greece?
    The specific area, so obviously Greece and Turkey (in the specific area). One of the articles I linked says as much:

    Back to the two Greek soldiers whom Turkey now holds: Both Turkey and Greece quickly resolved past cases where Turks and Greeks strayed accidentally across their mutual border quickly at the local level, usually with communication among commanders along each zone of the border. This is what makes Turkey’s imprisonment of the Greeks a break with precedent. It is also impossible to dismiss the possibility that Turkey simply kidnapped the Greeks in much the same way that, in September 2014, Russian forces kidnapped an Estonian officer from within Estonia in order to pressure Russia’s smaller, Western-looking, and democratically-oriented neighbor.
    And you know they are not infiltration specialist why? The British SAS don't bloody advertise on operations, they hide under the guise of engineers or REME.
    Dude, the guy whose photograph he linked to you, is like 20 kgr overweight. He couldn't possibly run 200 meters without getting a heart attack. SAS-type personnel? Seriously?
    This guy though?



    This was the turkish "excavator driver" who illegally entered Greek territory and was captured.

    The Turks wanted to have two hostages to exchange with the 8 Turks that requested asylum in Greece after the failed coup. Our government would love to do this but so far our judicial system has managed to give them the finger.
    Exactly.

    During the cold war RAF and Army intel went into East Germany as part of sanctioned "touring" parties then go off the approved routes, concealing their identities. You'd have to be a fool or willfully ignorant to think Greece and Turkey do not send missions into each other's territory. Every nation does this in areas of tension and potential conflict.
    As you say, "touring" parties, ie personnel disguised as civilians (tourists). Turkey in fact does that, and several have been captured. They don't send troops dressed in military uniform and having the standard equipment they have on patrol (their weapons included).

    The soldiers were caught over 200 meters inside the Turkish border in a military zone. They were found with video footage of the area according to their own testimony.
    I would testify to the murder of Kennedy if I had been captured. Where is the footage? where is your evidence? Our sources say that the cell phones checked out "clean":
    https://www.newsbomb.gr/ellada/news/...n-stratiotikon
    "Evros: the cell phones of the two Greek troops [are] clean"


    In no country in the world, foreign soldiers would be let go easily after being found hundreds of meters deep in one's own territory.
    It has already been said, such incidents occur rather frequently, and are resolved on a local commander level.

    Do explain to us how demanding return of soldiers alleged to have taken part in a coup attempt means that Turkey is a rouge state?
    Because of the concept of Independence of Justice. A President CANNOT say "The court says that these people must be held, but IF you do me this favour then the court will rule otherwise", unless said President is a dictator who holds all power to himself and can have a person or persons incarcerated or released from prison just on his say so. Kind of like the North Korean guy. The VERY FACT that an educated turkish citizen actually had to ask such a question clearly demonstrates that Turkey has actually NO democratic background AT ALL. Never did, never will.
    Last edited by ioannis76; July 17, 2018 at 04:46 PM.

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  11. #11
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    So, Turkey seems to leave no opportunity to remind the world that it is a rogue state. (clipped)

    This starts off out the gate with "rogue state" in the opening post. My understanding of a rogue state is a nation or state regarded as breaking international law and posing a threat to the security of other nations. Now from the perspective of Greece, I can accept that at least Greece views Turkey as a threat to the security of Greece. But what about the first part of the definition? What international laws have been broken? As I see it, there are no issues of breaking international laws. Being held without being formally charged is not breaking any international laws that I know of. Crossing a border whether intentional or not would be a break if internationally recognized laws, but that is on the hands of the two Greek Cypriots not a Turkish breaking of the law. Now I know that various politicians in the USA have misused the term as well. So am I mistaken in what is and is not a rogue state?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    This starts off out the gate with "rogue state" in the opening post. My understanding of a rogue state is a nation or state regarded as breaking international law and posing a threat to the security of other nations. Now from the perspective of Greece, I can accept that at least Greece views Turkey as a threat to the security of Greece. But what about the first part of the definition? What international laws have been broken? As I see it, there are no issues of breaking international laws. Being held without being formally charged is not breaking any international laws that I know of. Crossing a border whether intentional or not would be a break if internationally recognized laws, but that is on the hands of the two Greek Cypriots not a Turkish breaking of the law. Now I know that various politicians in the USA have misused the term as well. So am I mistaken in what is and is not a rogue state?
    Depends what you mean by international law, since all laws are ultimately national laws. Turkey has been implicated in several plans to kidnap Turkish opposition figures in foreign countries, including America and Switzerland.
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    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    Depends what you mean by international law, since all laws are ultimately national laws. Turkey has been implicated in several plans to kidnap Turkish opposition figures in foreign countries, including America and Switzerland.
    My computer does not want to load the CNN / WSJ link. Regarding the Swiss link, I think that is par for the course for most nations. I know that there are many examples of this with the USA, Israel, and UK. This is why we prefer extradition treaties over black operations to get at the bad guys. In Turkey's defense, there is mush about the coup aftermath that put the government on edge, but I cannot go so far as calling those actions as actions of a rogue state. Repercussions from a single event do not make a rogue state for me.

    Rogue state or outlaw state is a term applied by some international theorists to states they consider threatening to the world's peace. This means being seen to meet certain criteria, such as being ruled by authoritarian governments that severely restrict human rights, sponsoring terrorism and seeking to proliferate weapons of mass destruction.[6] The term is used most by the United States (though the US State Department officially stopped using the term in 2000[1]), and in a speech to the UN in 2017, President Donald Trump reiterated the phrase.[7] However, it has been applied by other countries as well.[8]
    from wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_state)

    The USA lists Iran, Sudan, North Korea, Cuba, Syria, Venezuela as rogue states. Of those I would only count Sudan and North Korea by my definition as current rogue states. The others are clearly bad actors in some sense though. I guess what I am saying is that the label is more political than practical. It brings out emotion by the label. I guess it meets the requirements for why we call this the 'Mud Pit' though.

  14. #14
    Geronimo2006's Avatar TAR Local Moderator
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    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Erdogan still saying he wants to join the EU but I cant imagine Greece will allow that while this is unresolved.
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    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by Geronimo2006 View Post
    Erdogan still saying he wants to join the EU but I cant imagine Greece will allow that while this is unresolved.
    Turkey has been wanting in for over a decade. I do not think Greece is the only roadblock. The coup response worries many, but I still do not think of Turkey as a rogue country. This incident of two has more to do with the problems on Cyprus than it does with the big picture of Greek / Turkish relations. Resolve Cyprus and many problems will simply disappear.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post













    As you say, "touring" parties, ie personnel disguised as civilians (tourists). Turkey in fact does that, and several have been captured. They don't send troops dressed in military uniform and having the standard equipment they have on patrol (their weapons included).







    .
    Clearly you did not read the link I posted.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Dude, the guy whose photograph he linked to you, is like 20 kgr overweight. He couldn't possibly run 200 meters without getting a heart attack. SAS-type personnel? Seriously?
    This guy though?
    This was the turkish "excavator driver" who illegally entered Greek territory and was captured.
    He was a construction worker, not a soldier, as he was working at the buffer, and he simply wondered in by 8 meters while he was trying to turn the dozer around.

    By the way, that's his picture:



    Nice attempt at a false narrative.


    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    I would testify to the murder of Kennedy if I had been captured. Where is the footage? where is your evidence? Our sources say that the cell phones checked out "clean":
    https://www.newsbomb.gr/ellada/news/...n-stratiotikon
    "Evros: the cell phones of the two Greek troops [are] clean"
    Your "source", the one referenced in your link, merely refers to an other TV station from Greece, not a real source of information.

    It's in their own testimony. The soldier's excuse was that they were recording illegal immigrants, not the area. They also accept that they wondered in but that they didn't see the border line.


    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    It has already been said, such incidents occur rather frequently, and are resolved on a local commander level.
    No, not really. You're merely hiding behind a random opinion piece that provides no substance.


    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Because of the concept of Independence of Justice. A President CANNOT say "The court says that these people must be held, but IF you do me this favour then the court will rule otherwise", unless said President is a dictator who holds all power to himself and can have a person or persons incarcerated or released from prison just on his say so. Kind of like the North Korean guy. The VERY FACT that an educated turkish citizen actually had to ask such a question clearly demonstrates that Turkey has actually NO democratic background AT ALL. Never did, never will.
    Sigh... You really had to jump through lot of hoops to come up with that response. It doesn't even make sense. You're just convoluting a bunch of different issues to make a case here. It's completely normal for a country to demand extradition of a suspected criminal. It happens all the time. Interpol governs that. Erdoğan's conduct does not validate your statement. Your bigoted and ignorant take on Turkish democracy and the future is just a testament to the lack of merit of your position.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    Depends what you mean by international law, since all laws are ultimately national laws. Turkey has been implicated in several plans to kidnap Turkish opposition figures in foreign countries, including America and Switzerland.
    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    My computer does not want to load the CNN / WSJ link. Regarding the Swiss link, I think that is par for the course for most nations. I know that there are many examples of this with the USA, Israel, and UK. This is why we prefer extradition treaties over black operations to get at the bad guys. In Turkey's defense, there is mush about the coup aftermath that put the government on edge, but I cannot go so far as calling those actions as actions of a rogue state. Repercussions from a single event do not make a rogue state for me.
    from wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_state)
    The USA lists Iran, Sudan, North Korea, Cuba, Syria, Venezuela as rogue states. Of those I would only count Sudan and North Korea by my definition as current rogue states. The others are clearly bad actors in some sense though. I guess what I am saying is that the label is more political than practical. It brings out emotion by the label. I guess it meets the requirements for why we call this the 'Mud Pit' though.
    The Turkish opposition figure Dr. Legend was referring to, in his first link as well, is Fetullah Gülen, a guy who had to flee Turkey in late 1990s when a video recording of him talking to his followers that they should be secretive till the day they infiltrate all levels of the government was found and published. His organization, though he might be just a figurehead, is responsible of a number of framing operations against a wide number of professionals in Turkey from judiciary to the military. In their long list of crimes, one doesn't even need to add the "coup" attempt in 2016. His organization was also responsible for helping AKP gain power in Turkey. Since he fled to USA he have been living under CIA supervision. When AKP falls and Erdoğan flees Turkey you can bet damn sure that the next Turkısh government will try to kidnap him from anywhere in the world if he was being protected by the intelligence service of a foreign nation. Sort of like how Abdullah Öcalan, former leader of PKK, was kidnapped on his way out of a Greek embassy with a Southern Cypriot passport with the help of Mossad.

    By the way, there might be a confusion about where this incident occured because you said "two Greek Cypriots" as the incident happened near Edirne, in the region of Thrace, on the border between Greece and Turkey, not on any part of Cyprus.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; July 18, 2018 at 02:17 AM.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    My understanding of a rogue state is a nation or state regarded as breaking international law and posing a threat to the security of other nations.
    Turkey has invaded Cyprus, Syria and Iraq. Practically all its southern border neighbors. How many countries does it have to invade to consider it a rogue state, if that is your definition? Did it invade any of these countries in accordance with international law? I think not.

    He was a construction worker, not a soldier, as he was working at the buffer, and he simply wondered in by 8 meters while he was trying to turn the dozer around.
    Says who? Hyrriet? LOL. The photograph where he wears military uniform was taken from his facebook page at the time. The point is, he was released because he declared the turkish embassy as a permanent place of residence in Greece. When the two Greeks did the same (they declared the Greek embassy as the permanent place of residency) this was not accepted by the Turkish state.

    You really had to jump through lot of hoops to come up with that response. It doesn't even make sense. You're just convoluting a bunch of different issues to make a case here. It's completely normal for a country to demand extradition of a suspected criminal. It happens all the time. Interpol governs that. Erdoğan's conduct does not validate your statement. Your bigoted and ignorant take on Turkish democracy and the future is just a testament to the lack of merit of your position.
    You are still failing to see the point, and still proving the VERY PROFOUND LACK of DEMOCRATIC groundwork in Turkey. The extradiction or not of a criminal is up to the JUSTICE SYSTEM to decide, NOT THE PRESIDENT. Repeat after me, Separation of Powers:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers

    Turkey doesn't have that. All powers start and end in Erdogan. And it's not just Erdogan. This has been going on forever. Turkey never really moved away from the sultanic system.

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  19. #19

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Turkey has invaded Cyprus, Syria and Iraq. Practically all its southern border neighbors. How many countries does it have to invade to consider it a rogue state, if that is your definition? Did it invade any of these countries in accordance with international law? I think not.
    Who hasn't invaded Iraq these days? America did it, the UK did it does that make those two nations rogue states? If invding a nation makes you a rogue state then it's a pretty long list.

    Oh and when Alexander was in charge, GREECE invaded iraq.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Greek soldiers are still being held hostage by Turkey

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Says who? Hyrriet? LOL. The photograph where he wears military uniform was taken from his facebook page at the time. The point is, he was released because he declared the turkish embassy as a permanent place of residence in Greece. When the two Greeks did the same (they declared the Greek embassy as the permanent place of residency) this was not accepted by the Turkish state.
    Pretty much every news source. The photograph is likely from his mandatory military service as he looks much younger in it which is likely a decade ago. You're trying to push a false narrative.


    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    You are still failing to see the point, and still proving the VERY PROFOUND LACK of DEMOCRATIC groundwork in Turkey. The extradiction or not of a criminal is up to the JUSTICE SYSTEM to decide, NOT THE PRESIDENT. Repeat after me, Separation of Powers:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers
    Turkey doesn't have that. All powers start and end in Erdogan. And it's not just Erdogan. This has been going on forever. Turkey never really moved away from the sultanic system.
    At no point did I say that extradition was up to the president. Even if I did it has no relevance to whether Turkey is a rouge state or not. These rabidly hysterical arguments of yours do not make up a valid case here.
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