Are Elite Units Worth it in Small Stacks?

[boblikesoup]

In battles, I tend to find I get much higher returns on cost using lots of cheap units than fewer expensive ones if stack size isn't an issue. For example x2.25 units of normal slingers will beat a Judean slinger easily. x2 militia hoplites will bear a normal hoplite easily.

I know population can be an issue, but if anything it's usually because you can't afford enough of the elite troops. More to micromanage can be a small issue, but again, not in non-maxed out stacks.

What am I missing?

[myarta]

In the early battle that may be true, but if you have a core of 4-6 elites and you also use the cheaper units to fill out your line, then when their cheaper units are worn out and exhausted from defeating yours, now they have to face fresh elites and that will turn the battle.

[boblikesoup]

In the early battle that may be true, but if you have a core of 4-6 elites and you also use the cheaper units to fill out your line, then when their cheaper units are worn out and exhausted from defeating yours, now they have to face fresh elites and that will turn the battle.

But isn't it better to just have twice as many units that can flank or reinforce anyway?

[myarta]

Maybe, but some of the weaker units have poor morale and will be very tenuous if their flanking maneuvers take them far enough away from the general/bulk of the army that they are soon routed themselves (e.g. you execute a flanking, then the enemy cavalry charges the back of your flankers).

[KAM 2150]

In 20v20 battle you won't be able to have more units than the enemy. If single elite unit would be able to beat 3-4 non elite ones with ease, it would be game is over once you have an elite army as not a single enemy stack will be able to threaten you.

Also you did not provide examples of elite units just levy vs medium quality units, in which case obviously two units can cause a pain to such target. What you talk about only applies if there are no full stacks fighting with only levy and medium units.

Other thing is that in DeI, even if you have good army, it still does not mean you can turn of your brain! Heavier unit still need support and thanks to that, all units are more or less usable through entire game rather than only playing with heavy/elite units after 50 turns.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

But isn't it better to just have twice as many units that can flank or reinforce anyway?

Ιt depends. I always prefer quality instead of quantity.

[popovic]

Early game, no, ABSOLUTELY not.

For most factions, you won`t even be able to field any.
You won`t have the money, and you won`t have the population.

And even if you do scrap up the population, 1 serious battle, and BAM, 60% of your elites are gone. And you again have no population...

Remember, most elites are either shock cavalry, or line infantry. And those units take proportionately more casualties than ranged units. Especially if you auto-resolve.

Late game it is different, though even there I tend to never make the core of my armies anything higher than 2nd population class.


But early game simply spamming the CHEAPEST spearmen and slingers/javelinmen will bring you victory, if you can outnumber the enemy (and you usually can, the AI is still pretty bad at managing it`s stacks).

Take note though, it IS a double edged sword. If the AI gets it`s head out of it`s behind, and park ALL 4 of their stacks at your capital, and you have 4 stacks of basic levies, you are screwed. It`s literally game over.

However, that hardly ever happens (happened only once to me in like 200 campaigns of DeI).

P.S. All this is experience from playing one starting region factions on very hard campaign difficulty. If you are playing other factions/difficulty, you will obviously have easier time/more options.

[CadetNewb]

He's not wrong, but there's a middle ground I think. Early game, certain elite units are definitely better than others. More decisive ones such as shock cav and cav in general are particularly important, though you'll never rely on them as your backbone unless you're the Parthians or something. Levy units will likely be your main fighting force. You can, as many armies did historically, form a fighting force of your first class citizens. However, just as he said, your fortunes will also be the same as they were historically; one bad battle, and you'll never recover in time for the next fight.

[boblikesoup]

It is sort of logical, and balanced in-game, if more elite units have slightly lower upkeep costs like up to 1/6 since they need less food and administration per capita.

[Patukov]

He's not wrong, but there's a middle ground I think. Early game, certain elite units are definitely better than others. More decisive ones such as shock cav and cav in general are particularly important, though you'll never rely on them as your backbone unless you're the Parthians or something. Levy units will likely be your main fighting force. You can, as many armies did historically, form a fighting force of your first class citizens. However, just as he said, your fortunes will also be the same as they were historically; one bad battle, and you'll never recover in time for the next fight.

I echo this point. Playing as Armenia, for example, and your early armies will be trash spears and cheap skirmishers for the most part. But you will need at least a few units of shock cav to be the hammer to your anvil, specially against factions like Galatia, whose infantry will eat through yours if given enough time

[T2av]

In battles, I tend to find I get much higher returns on cost using lots of cheap units than fewer expensive ones if stack size isn't an issue. For example x2.25 units of normal slingers will beat a Judean slinger easily. x2 militia hoplites will bear a normal hoplite easily.

I know population can be an issue, but if anything it's usually because you can't afford enough of the elite troops. More to micromanage can be a small issue, but again, not in non-maxed out stacks.

What am I missing?

It's all about personal taste. I find it sexy to be weilding an elite stack that just stomps the enemy(usually I'll call that stack Trav's Royal Gaurd) and field other mixed armies.