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Thread: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

  1. #41

    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    A safer immigration policy with regards to nations renowned for exporting terrorism. It's really very simple to understand.
    Do you know how many of the terrorism suspects were from those countries?
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  2. #42
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Do you know how many of the terrorism suspects were from those countries?
    Does it matter? I could state something such as: if it could save only one life....

    Seriously, the issue is not about what has happened, but that the government cannot perform the necessary scrutiny on applications from failed states, states that are perhaps enemies of the USA, or simply states in chaos. Each country is subject to the ban as circumstances change. Those banned upon periodic review can be removed from the ban for the same changed circumstances. I am certain that those banned states can even petition to explicitly speed up a review if warranted.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    Does it matter? I could state something such as: if it could save only one life....

    Seriously, the issue is not about what has happened, but that the government cannot perform the necessary scrutiny on applications from failed states, states that are perhaps enemies of the USA, or simply states in chaos. Each country is subject to the ban as circumstances change. Those banned upon periodic review can be removed from the ban for the same changed circumstances. I am certain that those banned states can even petition to explicitly speed up a review if warranted.
    It kinda does. Shows motive the least, or in/competence. Does it even save one life though? If this saves lives, and there are other countries where "killing" comes from then why not those as well? The necessary scrutiny part also doesn't ring true since the ban is based on nationality, not location.
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  4. #44
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    It kinda does. Shows motive the least, or in/competence. Does it even save one life though? If this saves lives, and there are other countries where "killing" comes from then why not those as well? The necessary scrutiny part also doesn't ring true since the ban is based on nationality, not location.
    based on nationality, not location???? I thought the ban was on countries which would be location. Thus the discussions about visas and green cards already issued to individuals from the banned countries. Do not fall for the political gymnastics of running for office when pro and con trumpet "Muslim Ban". Please consider rhetoric, well rhetorical. Like "lock her up" being stated at the Republican convention. You did not take that seriously as a policy did you?

    In the end the executive order stands until this president or another president reverses or revises the executive order.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    based on nationality, not location???? I thought the ban was on countries which would be location. Thus the discussions about visas and green cards already issued to individuals from the banned countries. Do not fall for the political gymnastics of running for office when pro and con trumpet "Muslim Ban". Please consider rhetoric, well rhetorical. Like "lock her up" being stated at the Republican convention. You did not take that seriously as a policy did you?

    In the end the executive order stands until this president or another president reverses or revises the executive order.
    An Iranian national working and living in London would not be able to get a visa to USA if he wanted to. I doubt there are any security issues with the Heathrow airport. I take it you've abandoned the defense of the "saves lives" argument as well.
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  6. #46
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    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    An Iranian national working and living in London would not be able to get a visa to USA if he wanted to. I doubt there are any security issues with the Heathrow airport. I take it you've abandoned the defense of the "saves lives" argument as well.
    UK government is not responsible for providing accurate information on such a person, Tehran is. And I think it is pretty fair to say that Tehran isn't trusted by the American government.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a ďwhite slagĒ and ďwhite ****Ē as they beat me.

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  7. #47

    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    UK government is not responsible for providing accurate information on such a person, Tehran is. And I think it is pretty fair to say that Tehran isn't trusted by the American government.
    Sure they are. What the hell the Iranian government know about a citizen of theirs living in London for years? While I simply picked Iran as an example there are tens of thousands of Iranians living in UK.
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  8. #48
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Then I suggest the Iranian national get citizenship where he resides and avoid the issue of the Iranian government problem. If that same Iranian national wants to now work in the USA, then despite your example Iran will need to be a trustworthy partner in any visa application. The fact that Iran may know nothing of the applicant for the past several years does not change that. Iran is still not trusted to even state they know nothing.

    Edit: I was watching a PBS rerun of Italians in America the other day and when WWII broke out for the USA at Pearl Harbor, FDR followed up with executive orders regarding all Italians, Japanese, and Germans by citizenship to be declared enemy aliens. This meant grandma and grandpa who never dealt with the necessity of citizenship being caught in the government crosshairs even though grandpa and grandma had been in the country for 40 or fifty years!

    Japanese, German, and Italian American Enemy Alien ...

    During World War II, the U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a ...

    The Italian Americans PBS Documentary Series - Home | PBS

    This is not a new problem. This is not even a Republican only problem. History is full of other examples in addition to FDR's reaction. A government's first reaction should be to keep their own citizens safe. If non citizens suffer, that is pretty much collateral damage and unfortunate. But to complain about the rights of non citizens before the citizen rights speaks volumes about the complaining.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    Then I suggest the Iranian national get citizenship where he resides and avoid the issue of the Iranian government problem. If that same Iranian national wants to now work in the USA, then despite your example Iran will need to be a trustworthy partner in any visa application. The fact that Iran may know nothing of the applicant for the past several years does not change that. Iran is still not trusted to even state they know nothing.

    Edit: I was watching a PBS rerun of Italians in America the other day and when WWII broke out for the USA at Pearl Harbor, FDR followed up with executive orders regarding all Italians, Japanese, and Germans by citizenship to be declared enemy aliens. This meant grandma and grandpa who never dealt with the necessity of citizenship being caught in the government crosshairs even though grandpa and grandma had been in the country for 40 or fifty years!

    Japanese, German, and Italian American Enemy Alien ...

    During World War II, the U.S. Saw Italian-Americans as a ...

    The Italian Americans PBS Documentary Series - Home | PBS

    This is not a new problem. This is not even a Republican only problem. History is full of other examples in addition to FDR's reaction. A government's first reaction should be to keep their own citizens safe. If non citizens suffer, that is pretty much collateral damage and unfortunate. But to complain about the rights of non citizens before the citizen rights speaks volumes about the complaining.
    That still assumes that this measure keeps people safe and that getting citizenship is easy to do. There are many Iranians out there that can't go back to Iran because of their stance on the current government, and often they're people of money. You're practically barring them from attending university in USA and bringing a great amount of money to USA's market. On the safe side, there is no real benefits, at least none that could have been shown. The fact that people shy away from telling us the representation of terrorism that people from these countries commit is becoming more and more of an evidence that the motives are different.

    World war is a little extreme example. Would you be OK with banning Italian nationals from traveling to USA because of the Italian mafia?
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  10. #50
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Your Italian mafia question misses the point. The ban is the result of what governments need to do with other governments. The Iranian nationals by remaining as citizens of Iran are simply caught in the crossfire. By the way, I do know some that want to bring relatives here (young male nephews mainly) and it is a problem. That does not make the travel ban bad. To be honest, without a good working relationship government to government, I would be uneasy with their entry to the USA. The mafia are not a problem because of citizenship ties to Italy. If there was a need to work with Italy on such a problem, then Italy needs to be a trusted partner (which of course they are).

  11. #51

    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    Your Italian mafia question misses the point. The ban is the result of what governments need to do with other governments. The Iranian nationals by remaining as citizens of Iran are simply caught in the crossfire. By the way, I do know some that want to bring relatives here (young male nephews mainly) and it is a problem. That does not make the travel ban bad. To be honest, without a good working relationship government to government, I would be uneasy with their entry to the USA. The mafia are not a problem because of citizenship ties to Italy. If there was a need to work with Italy on such a problem, then Italy needs to be a trusted partner (which of course they are).
    Terrorists are not a problem because of citizenship to those countries in the very same manner. Saying that Iranian nationals living elsewhere because they didn't deny their Iranian citizenship just makes no sense. In the end, we're left with a ban that's discriminatory (and not based on any danger). Since the argument that it makes people safer is also abandoned we can easily say that it's useless as well.
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  12. #52
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Terrorists are not a problem because of citizenship to those countries in the very same manner. Saying that Iranian nationals living elsewhere because they didn't deny their Iranian citizenship just makes no sense. In the end, we're left with a ban that's discriminatory (and not based on any danger). Since the argument that it makes people safer is also abandoned we can easily say that it's useless as well.
    I take it you dislike the travel ban and I like the idea of travel ban and how the law is presently being enforced. I think the idea that it may make people safer is important. It does make sense to deny nationals of a banned country if the country is under such a travel ban despite your protestations to the contrary. The Iranian Nationals example is a red herring here. The ban is because of government to government relations and the current status of the rule of law within the banned country. Terrorism is a fancy phrase used in the media both for and against the ban. This is an ongoing program. Countries will be added and dropped. Life goes on. Or at least it does until the media wants to highlight a specific and narrow example to support their agenda: https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world...ide/ar-BBLaKyH
    In the early morning hours of July 18, Mahmood Salem told his family over the phone that he had a gun in his hand and was going to kill himself.
    The Yemeni U.S. citizen had called his family after turning off the lights, locking the doors and flipping the sign to closed at Fat Boys grocery store in Crowley, Louisiana, his family said. From his apartment in the back of the store, Salem, 31, phoned his wife and five children who were living in Djibouti on the east coast of Africa. Salem's three youngest kids are U.S. citizens, but his wife and two oldest are not — and they were denied visas under President Donald Trump's travel ban.
    Read the article at the link, if you wish.

    So other than feel good or feel bad about the report and thus the travel ban, what do articles like this do to explain the broader reasons of support or opposition to such executive orders?

  13. #53

    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    I take it you dislike the travel ban and I like the idea of travel ban and how the law is presently being enforced. I think the idea that it may make people safer is important. It does make sense to deny nationals of a banned country if the country is under such a travel ban despite your protestations to the contrary. The Iranian Nationals example is a red herring here. The ban is because of government to government relations and the current status of the rule of law within the banned country. Terrorism is a fancy phrase used in the media both for and against the ban. This is an ongoing program. Countries will be added and dropped. Life goes on. Or at least it does until the media wants to highlight a specific and narrow example to support their agenda: https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world...ide/ar-BBLaKyH
    Read the article at the link, if you wish.

    So other than feel good or feel bad about the report and thus the travel ban, what do articles like this do to explain the broader reasons of support or opposition to such executive orders?
    It's not really a matter of my feelings towards the band. I just see no logic behind it which is why I asked if people knew the numbers behind it and the lack of response regarding that said a lot. I see no substance to back up the claim that Iranian nationals living in London being a red herring. You are free to substantiate that but that example is specifically in line with what we're talking about here. You are right about one thing; the ban is because of government to government relations, though that too have a bunch of holes in it. The ban is not because of safety. One would assume nationals from these countries would be the prime source of terrorism but they hardly make a dent. The use of the word "terrorism" was also something Trump's on administration used to justify the ban. Basically, the main point is that no one in USA is really more safe because of this policy which is primarily what they base it on. Meanwhile, many argue that it's a source for making domestic Muslim population resort to extremism.
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  14. #54

    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Meanwhile, many argue that it's a source for making domestic Muslim population resort to extremism.
    What is your argument for why it would make the "domestic Muslim population resort to extremism"?

  15. #55

    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    What is your argument for why it would make the "domestic Muslim population resort to extremism"?
    It's not really rocket science. It simply plays into their narrative. It shows up as a random act of institutional bigotry since it can not be logically based on any rational thought process. It's a factor.
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  16. #56

    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    It's not really rocket science. It simply plays into their narrative. It shows up as a random act of institutional bigotry since it can not be logically based on any rational thought process. It's a factor.
    What narrative do "domestic Muslims" have, that enacting a 'travel ban' from various countries will cause "domestic Muslims" to "resort to extremism"?
    What is this "extremism" that you say "domestic Muslims" will resort to?

  17. #57

    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    What narrative do "domestic Muslims" have, that enacting a 'travel ban' from various countries will cause "domestic Muslims" to "resort to extremism"?
    What is this "extremism" that you say "domestic Muslims" will resort to?
    I guess we need to go back to basics, don't we? A "domestic Muslim" is someone that already lives in USA, whether through an already valid visa or citizenship matters little. The "travel ban" that's been enacted mostly covers Muslim-majority countries, however, this is too done mostly in a random fashion as the ban doesn't really cover most of the countries that people like arrested members of the ISIL were from. "Muslim" is someone that follows the religion of Islam. "Islam" is a religion that's in practice over 14 centuries old. ISIL is a group that was mostly created in Syria and Iraq after decades of conflict in the region. "Syria" and "Iraq" are countries in the Middle East. "Middle East" while not necessarily the middle of East is a political region name that people mostly use to cover the Muslim majority countries around Israel. "Israel" is a country that's been created in the middle of Middle East about half a century ago by mostly European Jews. "Jews" are an ethnoreligious group with rich and long history. You know what? This can take some time...
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  18. #58

    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    I guess we need to go back to basics, don't we? A "domestic Muslim" is someone that already lives in USA, whether through an already valid visa or citizenship matters little. The "travel ban" that's been enacted mostly covers Muslim-majority countries, however, this is too done mostly in a random fashion as the ban doesn't really cover most of the countries that people like arrested members of the ISIL were from. "Muslim" is someone that follows the religion of Islam. "Islam" is a religion that's in practice over 14 centuries old. ISIL is a group that was mostly created in Syria and Iraq after decades of conflict in the region. "Syria" and "Iraq" are countries in the Middle East. "Middle East" while not necessarily the middle of East is a political region name that people mostly use to cover the Muslim majority countries around Israel. "Israel" is a country that's been created in the middle of Middle East about half a century ago by mostly European Jews. "Jews" are an ethnoreligious group with rich and long history. You know what? This can take some time...
    That is all very interesting.

    None of that answered either of my questions.

    My questions were:
    What narrative do "domestic Muslims" have, that enacting a 'travel ban' from various countries will cause "domestic Muslims" to "resort to extremism"?
    What is this "extremism" that you say "domestic Muslims" will resort to?

    There were no questions about Syria, Iraq, Islam, what a "domestic Muslim" is, Israel, Jews etc.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    That is all very interesting.

    None of that answered either of my questions.

    My questions were:
    What narrative do "domestic Muslims" have, that enacting a 'travel ban' from various countries will cause "domestic Muslims" to "resort to extremism"?
    What is this "extremism" that you say "domestic Muslims" will resort to?

    There were no questions about Syria, Iraq, Islam, what a "domestic Muslim" is, Israel, Jews etc.
    Well, you showed me that you needed explanation on the most basic things. So, it will take some time since I have to go through every single bit. I touched on some things. Need to do more. Will do that later on when I have more time. Be patient.
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  20. #60

    Default Re: Supreme Court Upholds Trumpís Travel Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Well, you showed me that you needed explanation on the most basic things. So, it will take some time since I have to go through every single bit. I touched on some things. Need to do more. Will do that later on when I have more time. Be patient.
    I did? More assertions. Very interesting...
    Are you sure it is not that you were just spouting out a word salad to avoid answering some rather direct questions about your claims of "domestic Muslims" having a(n undefined) "narrative" that will cause them to resort to (undefined) "extremism", in response to the travel ban...

    and to reiterate the questions being avoided:
    What narrative do "domestic Muslims" have, that enacting a 'travel ban' from various countries will cause "domestic Muslims" to "resort to extremism"?
    What is this "extremism" that you say "domestic Muslims" will resort to?

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