OPEN DISCUSSION: the renewal of the modding awards

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

One proposal (for now...)

In the "Favourite Modder" sections, the user who nominates a modder should mention the work done in the corresponding year. There are many nominations to modders who have not done any work during that year and it is difficult for the Committee to control if the nomination is correct.

Example for Rome 2 in Modding Awards 2017:

Most Popular Modder: Swiss Halberdier (Additional Units Mod - Rome (AUM-ROM) ; KLAssurbanipal (KLA’s Roman Legionaries)

Or at least this should be optional in order to help the committee not to spend too much time to find what this modder released.

[Flinn]

Thanks to all of those who have contributed so far, much appreciated sirs!

However, for the sake of clarity, I remind you all that NOTHING is going to be decided right now, this is just a brainstorming thread to collect ideas, so please keep them coming (even those who have already posted are invited to do so again, if they have new ones to share) and avoid rejecting other people's ideas or start arguments as this is not really the place to do so.

Once the time will be ripe, I'll prepare a list of all the collected ideas/inputs and what's not and I will post them; It's hard for me now to say how to proceed, such decisions have been taken so far internally by the Committee, so probably a new recruitment drive will be launched to see who is really interested in participating in the process, before we actually move to do aything new.

One thing is certain; the duty of running these awards is getting harder and harder every year, with less mods, less modders and increasing complaints, therefore something new must be done and a new support from the community is needed, otherwise I'm afraid that they are doomed to disappear for good...

[Steph]

About renewal of the Awards, we have to consider the Steam situation. Since starting with Shogun 2 mods are supported via the workshop, there is little reason to come here to publish mods.

I'm still here for NTW (even if I did little in 2018 on this mod). And I'm also here for my new Warhammer 2 mod. It's not publish yet, so not yet on Steam, but I post preview and ask for feedback here. Unfortunately, I got little feedback, as if few people are stil comign or are interested . Even after I publish on Steam, I will still maintain the feedback thread here. I have started a few other threads, for example on Totalwar forum, but they are mostly to post a few screens, and link to this forum.

You may think it has little to do with awards, but I don't thnk so: the awards are less active than before, because people come here less. The discussion about new games is not very active compare to other media (even if I think the quality is actually better, the quantity of feedback is less).

And we have far less mods...

This is a kind of downward spirale: the awards are only for mods posted here, but they are few, so less interest in awards, and less interest in coming here, which lead to less game...

Now, if I want help with modding, I know I have little chance to find it here (and even less on totalwar forum)...

So the question of reviving the award is more general, it's more reviving the whole site (at least for newer games).

I don't have a miracle solution unfortunately, but advertising more on different media is a good idea: when we run the awards, we should speak about everywhere on this forum and subforum, but also other forums, facebook, etc.

Which lead to seond idea: if we want more people to come, it means they should be able to vote for mods from outside here.

So maybe we could have several categories
- Best hosted mods (from this forum, and with a real activity: still with external link since everything is hosted on Steam, but at least preview, discussion, etc in this site)
- Best external mods: for this one, it would be with nomination only, the commitee would only check the date to be sure it's from the correct year.

Maybe the possibility to vote here for their favourite mod from Steam, even if not hosted here, could bring some user to this forum?

[Flinn]

I'm putting here some thoughts I found while lurking old discussion threads on the private archives of the Committee; I'm higlighting the parts I believe to be more interesting

When this is done (in a couple of days), I intend to propose the creation of a new committee (this time with open invitation), that will set the rules for next year's competition. The committee will have plenty of time to hammer out a new plan, as what we have no clearly doesn't work, for whatever reason. The most reasonable suggestion so far seems to me to be the one where mods/modders have a public thread, where they showcase their work, and that is their nomination ballot at the end of the year. Anyway, that's for the committee to decide, along with whatever other rules and changes are deemed necessary...

a sensible idea, still it clashes with the fact that many modders do not care (or even know) about the Awards

[snip]
For me awards are place to present mods and modders who created something great in that year and to show this to public to see that there are other mods. Not to give it to same mods year after year which makes no sence......

I'm thinking that having a "spotlight " for mods/modders who are not nominated but that the committee thinks deserve recognition would be good. A sort of special category created by the committee with few nominations of mods or people who we think are deserving but that have been left behind with normal nominations; this, or we can vote directly by ourselves and decide a special prize for a mod and/or a modder (like the Librarians' choice in the Scrip Competitions)

I think that is not a direct result so coud lead to different interpretations and debates. I think it is simpler if there are two categories like ' Favourite new mod' for first release and 'Favourite mod new version' for version of mods released in previous years.

not a bad idea IMO

[Steph]

I like the idea of giving spotlight to new mod this year , vs older mod updated this year

[izzi]

About renewal of the Awards, we have to consider the Steam situation. Since starting with Shogun 2 mods are supported via the workshop, there is little reason to come here to publish mods.

I'm still here for NTW (even if I did little in 2018 on this mod). And I'm also here for my new Warhammer 2 mod. It's not publish yet, so not yet on Steam, but I post preview and ask for feedback here. Unfortunately, I got little feedback, as if few people are stil comign or are interested . Even after I publish on Steam, I will still maintain the feedback thread here. I have started a few other threads, for example on Totalwar forum, but they are mostly to post a few screens, and link to this forum.

You may think it has little to do with awards, but I don't thnk so: the awards are less active than before, because people come here less. The discussion about new games is not very active compare to other media (even if I think the quality is actually better, the quantity of feedback is less).

And we have far less mods...

This is a kind of downward spirale: the awards are only for mods posted here, but they are few, so less interest in awards, and less interest in coming here, which lead to less game...

Now, if I want help with modding, I know I have little chance to find it here (and even less on totalwar forum)...

So the question of reviving the award is more general, it's more reviving the whole site (at least for newer games).

I don't have a miracle solution unfortunately, but advertising more on different media is a good idea: when we run the awards, we should speak about everywhere on this forum and subforum, but also other forums, facebook, etc.

Which lead to seond idea: if we want more people to come, it means they should be able to vote for mods from outside here.

So maybe we could have several categories
- Best hosted mods (from this forum, and with a real activity: still with external link since everything is hosted on Steam, but at least preview, discussion, etc in this site)
- Best external mods: for this one, it would be with nomination only, the commitee would only check the date to be sure it's from the correct year.

Maybe the possibility to vote here for their favourite mod from Steam, even if not hosted here, could bring some user to this forum?

I think the main issue with that is publicity of TWC and the mods. Only a few hardliners are still going to TWC for mods/tools/tutorials. The other main people are going to steamworkshop or find new mods out trough some youtubers. It really needs more publicity outside it's own domain. On reddit/totalwar forum/especially youtube (for the subscribers and viewers)….The TWC channel needs to revive and make previews/reviews of small and big mods. This gives more publicity to the awards also.

[♔atthias♔]

I'm putting here some thoughts I found while lurking old discussion threads on the private archives of the Committee; I'm higlighting the parts I believe to be more interesting



a sensible idea, still it clashes with the fact that many modders do not care (or even know) about the Awards



I'm thinking that having a "spotlight " for mods/modders who are not nominated but that the committee thinks deserve recognition would be good. A sort of special category created by the committee with few nominations of mods or people who we think are deserving but that have been left behind with normal nominations; this, or we can vote directly by ourselves and decide a special prize for a mod and/or a modder (like the Librarians' choice in the Scrip Competitions)



not a bad idea IMO

I especiallly like the idea of a modding awards comitee choice award
although a shorter name would be ideal but I think that if you shorten the name it would lose its meaning
like modding comitee award will make it look like it comes from a modding comitee for example

[Flinn]

bumping

I kindly request those who have already posted to check if amongst their contacts here at TWC there are some modders who could be interested in commenting and redirect them here. It is in the best interest of all the modders and all the other members alike that we will gather as much input and ideas as possible, so everybody is invited to participate, but modders in particular should be concerned about this discussion thread more than anyone else.
The modding awards are not just a way to reward talented and meritable modders (and great mods!), but also a community effort and a site-wide activity that created (and will keep creating) many links between TWCenters involved in different fields (modding, arts, Content, moderation, etc) that are a benefit for the whole community.

Thanks in advance

[AnthoniusII]

While updating the Hall of Fame, I've just realised that they didn't use the same criterias by the past to make the different categories. The former categories were more purely about the gaming part rather than the modding technical part. For instance, there were the followong categories:
- Favourite Mod
- Favourite Gameplay Mod
- Most Immersive Mod
- Favourite Campaign AI
- Favourite visual aesthetic
Etc...

I think that we should go back to this somehow (not necessary with the same categories but you get the idea ).
All games, no matter the engine, can get more or less the same categories.
Most of the mods can be nominated in any of these categories, even in several of them.
The Committee won't need anymore to list the mods/submods per category but only by checking if there has been a release during the relevant year.

The bad point is that it doesn't reduce the main games sections ( I mean that we would still have 1 category per TW serie) unless the Committee decides to gather some of them.

The problem with many categories is that we put them in the same value. I explain. Re-ussing textures is quite different that creating textures. In most of Rome II and Attila mods textures created by skinners ages ago for Rome I and M2TW games are re-used. Its unfair for the original creators to see their work used for others to win awards. 2nd. Creating a tool is much more difficult than simply creating a model. A perfect example is IWTE tool and many more tools that i would need a huge list to post them.

I think the main problem (as mentioned in the first post) is that many mods of the warscape engine games are in the steam workshop. Maybe the focus could be on modders that make excellent tools for the community (as they can't really count as mods on the steam workshop).
Also, many modders start small, but I can see lately that there are lesser modders or beginners that actually want to learn to mod. Maybe lack of time or the will to do so.

I agree...new moders are less...I remember 10 years ago we had a pleathora of scripters and no model makers. MARKA/RUsichi team gave a solution and not we live in a reversed situation.

I've got a few different thoughts I've come up with. Not all of em are compatible.

1 - Increase the number of people on the Mod Committee. There shouldn't be a situation where one person is solely responsible for a particular section, and if they're unavailable that section can't go forward at all (or someone is forced to double up and cover for them). All of us on the Committee were unavailable at one point or another, and it made the situation pretty ad-hoc.


AND/OR


2 - There should NEVER be a situation where someone wins an award simply because no-one bothered to nominate mods, and they automatically win because there is no-one else to vote for.
If there are not enough nominations, I believe that ALL of the mods that are eligible for that section should be automatically included in the vote. This would increase the amount of mods to vote for, and would make it so people don't AUTOMATICALLY win. Whether it would mean different people would actually win or not? idk
Eg if there are 8 mods eligible for that award that year, but only 2 of them are nominated then all 8 will be in the vote.
If like 5 are nominated however, then only those 5 will go to the vote because there is competition and no-one automatically wins.


AND/OR


3 - The Committee should just scrap the process where we have to work out ourselves what mods are eligible or not. It is boring, lengthy, kinda pointless and needlessly delays the awards by like 6 months.
The Committee should only consider whether the mods that have been nominated by players are eligible, rather than working out ourselves the entire list of potential mods.


AND/OR


4 - Create a "best newcomer" award. Whether its for each game, or just the two different engines (Warscape and whatever pre-Warscape is) is up to the Committee.
This award could be available for modders who have started modding in the last 3 years, and have not previously won the award.
I think 3 years would be a good time period, because modders may take a while to reach recognition. I started modding in late 2013 for example, but didn't kick it into gear until 2016.

I agree...Mods must have enough nominations but this may become a trap...A great mod without public relations may end up "worst" than a mod with advertising resources such "friends" that promote their work because its the mod of their friends. That could end up awarding the worst mods in some cases!

If the modder doesn't care about his own mod, or don't enters in the forum, or anything... it means that he doesn't care the Modding Awards and he will not care about the forum. I see the matter of nominations correctly.

That can not be an excuse...Example I asked douzens of times to give an award to MARKA/Rusichi team despite the fact they are no longer active. Why? After their release of their mod 99.9% mods in M2tw/Kingdoms engine use parts of their work. An award is an act or uknowlegment of someones contribution not something of self promotion.
Radius has a point....TWC starts to lose the "war" against STEAM...Its TWC fault though...for many reasons that this topic is not the place to discuss.
For me the Commitee must have a finall vote after the members ones. They must judge the ammount of work it has been done by a modder (i do not mean the quality because quality is a matter of personal taste) or a modding team and its impact to modding community. Also tool makers must recieve much bigger awards because without them we -the rest of modders- would not be able to do anything.

EDIT: One crusial issue is to re-clarify basic mods titles...
Titles like "Overhual" , "Visual" etc... Espesialy the 1st one "Overhual" can not be given to any Rome II and Attila mod since map and many other features can not be changed. If that continues (givving an overhaul award to such mods) creates an unfair competition to mods that totaly change everything in the game engine and take years of development to complete.
So TATW and other similar mods -in development- can not have the same value or share the title overhaul with mods that simply change UI/Models and textures. This discourage modders to create tools or make REAL overhaul mods and start looking other sites to host their work hopping that this work will recieve the uknowlegment they deserve.

[Jake Armitage]

I do like TWC 'cause it is an "open" forum. If people are not "open", there is really little you can do. Barely nothing even if applying double efforts.
If you want to solve something you must be radical and take the whole thing from the real source (as we all know, it's called steam)
My 3 advices, rather drastic advices I would say, are:
1) ask modders to put mods only in TWC and not steam, it's drastic but it's the only way to have back people interested. And not only people asking where is that, what is this in most of the threads.
2) open the forum to subscribers only, no more guests, hundreds of people downloading only.
3) PM everyone when there are important announcements where you want partecipation, like the awards. In general people open pages that are still into browser memory, without checking what is going around.

From my point of view, doing the 3 points above (thought better and with some other point too) will let people know that if they want to play the only total war playable version, they must come to TWC and be part of a closed forum. 75% will just enter to download, 15% will become active users, 5% basic modders, 5% modders

Sad to say, but imposition is the only way to obtain something that is not abstract.
See what children do, they are the only humans to whom humanity pays attention, 'cause they impose their will through something unbearable like crying and shouting.

[Athos187]

Maybe make the modding awards more prominent, I didnt even know they were going on.

[Flinn]

I've had to delete 7 posts for being off topic and for continuity; I think that the last warning is absolutely clear

However, for the sake of clarity, I remind you all that NOTHING is going to be decided right now, this is just a brainstorming thread to collect ideas, so please keep them coming (even those who have already posted are invited to do so again, if they have new ones to share) and avoid rejecting other people's ideas or start arguments as this is not really the place to do so.

Just to be even more clear, again: this thread is for dropping ideas about the revamp of the Modding Awards, and NOTHING ELSE

Last warning gents...

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Modders with knowledge of modding of actual titles are essential for a commitee, which should make a choice between actual mods.

[Flinn]

let's make it more specific

is there any rule/category or whatever related to the Modding Awards 2016 and 2017 that you think that should be absolutely changed? I don't want to start a rant with things like "this mod or modder should have won, not this one!" (let's avoid this at all, ok?) but rather understand if there's something that for someone is totally wrong but that we fail to see as a committee. You don't need to be arsh honestly, repsect is always due, the more for a Committee composed of volunteers who do a lot to have almost nothing in return, but please be as honest as possible.

ONE IMPORTANT NOTICE: as I explained in the Result's Thread, this year some categories have been merged for the sake of competition; while doing so we tried to keep in mind similarities/conformities of categories, but of course we could not grant a perfect result everywhere. I'm mentioning this because posting here a thing like "hey, merging Cat A with Cat C in Title X was not logic", when that merging only includes 2 mods in total, does not make much sense, as clearly such categories have been merged exclusively for competition.

Tell us what should go or be modified and, most important, tell us what should be added

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

@me or @all?

[Flinn]

of course it is directed to everyone

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

One category should be added: best submod.

Submods of a big overhauls have a little advantage against smaller mods, because they have a already greater audience.

[Quintus Hortensius Hortalus]

In my opinion all ideas for a new committee's choice award etc. are good and have their place but they will not help winning back publicity.

As I said earlier whenever the modding awards nomination starts this shall be the last date when a mod should have been published because who can honestly remember if a mod has been published before 5 or 6 months? (except for the modder himself).
This is obviously not needed when the awards are in January.

In addition the announcement should be "spammed" around with as example posts in every forum of hosted mods or even with mass PM's.

[Steph]

As I said, I think we have two choices
- We try to make people more interested in the wardsa, by opening it to mod which are NOT at TWC (SteamOnly for exemple), and we advertise everywhere, to make people come back here
- Or we try the opposite way, proposed by Jake Armitage, where you can publish mod here only and make it a kind of eltie club. But I fear this solution would be suicidal: moddrs will probably want the Steam coverage, and players are likely to go to Steam to find mods, and not come here... So it's likely to lead to a faster diying of CFC.

What could be done is a kind of mix:
- Mod posted on Steam for easier / broader upload
- But with a link to TWC for all the discussion and feedback.

[izzi]

As I said, I think we have two choices
- We try to make people more interested in the wardsa, by opening it to mod which are NOT at TWC (SteamOnly for exemple), and we advertise everywhere, to make people come back here
- Or we try the opposite way, proposed by Jake Armitage, where you can publish mod here only and make it a kind of eltie club. But I fear this solution would be suicidal: moddrs will probably want the Steam coverage, and players are likely to go to Steam to find mods, and not come here... So it's likely to lead to a faster diying of CFC.

What could be done is a kind of mix:
- Mod posted on Steam for easier / broader upload
- But with a link to TWC for all the discussion and feedback.

I agree (first choice). What TWC needs is publicity (for the awards and such). Not only on TWC, but everything that has to do with modding TW games (out it's own domain). Make previews/reviews of mods (on the youtube channel), because I feel that (that important part) it has been neglected for a while (especially when the WiseCoffin left).
Publicity and advertising is such an important factor for promoting such events and the related site.
The reason why I say this (hopefully not off topic: apologies Flinn), is that in my case with my own mod. It's for the moment only on TWC, but it doesn't get the publicity it really needs. People have told me, for publicity sake of the mod, to put it on other forums like the steam workshop. To get the publicity it deserves. While I personally love TWC, I feel that I have no other choice but to do so, if it doesn't change that way.