Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
Does anyone care that 10,000 of the 12,000 children were sent alone by their parents to do this dangerous journey?
Does anyone care that the so-called cages are literally the processing centres, where they stay for maybe one day.
Does anyone care that the children get free food, free clothing, education, beds, play, education etc etc all at the taxpayer’s expense.
And does anyone care that the alternative is incarcerating children in prison alongside their criminal parents.
or what about all these articles tha have just come out today about child abuse in detention centres in Virginia, which fail to mention in the headlines, or sometimes not until the 19th paragraph in the AP article where it is simply mildly implied, that it was the Obama admin that this happened under in 2015, and it was the 9th circuit in early 2016that ruled children had to be placed into care, which is exactly what Trump is doing. Jesus ing Christ. And people wonder why Trump is shouting about fake news.
(When people point out that ‘oh Obama did this too’, they’re not saying it’s okay or good, heck I don’t want these kids separated anymore than anyone else. They’re pointing out the hypocrisy of the media, which only started pushing this whole thing hard when Trump became President. What changed between 2015 and 2016? Nothing, no new laws, just a different President, one they don’t like. The Dems only platform is to get rid of Trump, that’s it)
But it’s the only option if you want to enforce your border laws. If you don’t like your border laws come out and say it, and change them instead of backing down because you know it will prolong the crisis giving you political pounts, Chuck Shumer
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
“Illegal immigration is wrong, plain and simple… People who enter the United States without our permission are illegal aliens and illegal aliens should not be treated the same as people who entered the U.S. legally.” – Senator Chuck Schumer, 2009
Moral absolutism is typically wrong. Especially over controversial topics.
Originally Posted by Aexodus
A)Does anyone care that 10,000 of the 12,000 children were sent alone by their parents to do this dangerous journey?
B)Does anyone care that the so-called cages are literally the processing centres, where they stay for maybe one day.
C)Does anyone care that the children get free food, free clothing, education, beds, play, education etc etc all at the taxpayer’s expense.
D)And does anyone care that the alternative is incarcerating children in prison alongside their criminal parents.
E)or what about all these articles tha have just come out today about child abuse in detention centres in Virginia, which fail to mention in the headlines, or sometimes not until the 19th paragraph in the AP article where it is simply mildly implied, that it was the Obama admin that this happened under in 2015, and it was the 9th circuit in early 2016that ruled children had to be placed into care, which is exactly what Trump is doing. Jesus ing Christ. And people wonder why Trump is shouting about fake news.
(When people point out that ‘oh Obama did this too’, they’re not saying it’s okay or good, heck I don’t want these kids separated anymore than anyone else. They’re pointing out the hypocrisy of the media, which only started pushing this whole thing hard when Trump became President. What changed between 2015 and 2016? Nothing, no new laws, just a different President, one they don’t like. The Dems only platform is to get rid of Trump, that’s it)
But it’s the only option if you want to enforce your border laws. If you don’t like your border laws come out and say it, and change them instead of backing down because you know it will prolong the crisis giving you political pounts, Chuck Shumer
A) Not particularly. I don't elect the parents of these kids. We do however elect our government. Trump separating families is wrong, claiming that the problem is with the parents who send their kids tackles an entirely different issue that's not relevant to the criticism of Trump's administration. The question here is, "Why can't we treat people humanely?" not, "Why are illegals coming to America?"
B) Detaining kids is apparently illegal for more than three days. The main point is that they are separated from their families.
Originally Posted by NPR
Children usually are held here initially, but it is illegal to keep them for more than three days — these holding cells are not meant for long-term detention.
The answer varies over time. Children begin at Customs and Border Protection facilities, are transferred to longer-term shelters and are supposed to eventually be placed with families or sponsors....Within three days, children are supposed to be transferred from immigration detention to the Office of Refugee Resettlement, which is part of the Department of Health and Human Services.
Where they are likely to remain for quite a long time.
C) No, why is that a problem?
D) Which is better than incarcerating children only. If your point is that there are better alternatives, well done.
E) Trump enacted a policy of zero-tolerance. I mean if you read up on the subject, or the "fake news", perhaps you'd be informed as to why people are outraged. Trump didn't have to do this, he deliberately chose to because this was such a huge problem apparently. As for the Obama quip, here's an article.
Reversion to the Obama-era norm isn’t what the Trump administration wanted, though. The president took a ton of pride in the low number of border crossings in the early months of his term — he kept bragging about it even as apprehensions crept back up in fall of 2017. When he started realizing that people were still coming in to seek asylum, he got upset that the US couldn’t just shut down the border — and pushed into action a policy agenda that would crack down on anyone trying to come to the US without papers, especially if they crossed into the country illegally.
Obama in 2014 took a mostly punitive approach to border crossers. Trump in 2018 took an entirely punitive one. But Obama was reacting partly to circumstances; Trump was reacting solely to his own desires.
The difference between what Obama is doing and what Trump is doing is pretty stark. And while I'm against being anti-immigration in general, I can understand some of what he did when you consider the political climate and establishment in USA regarding immigration reform. This is completely different to Trump cracking down on immigration in order to be spiteful.
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
How is it spiteful to crack down on illegal immigration? This isn’t happening to the ones who come legally, and special treatment for illegal migrants is incredibly unfair to legal migrants who do it right.
If you don’t want to separate children from parents who cross legally, what’s stopping human traffickers just buddying up with a kid and claiming its theirs? They need to go through a port of entry. What is the alternative other than incarcerating children with their parents?
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
Originally Posted by Aexodus
How is it spiteful to crack down on illegal immigration? This isn’t happening to the ones who come legally, and special treatment for illegal migrants is incredibly unfair to legal migrants who do it right.
If you don’t want to separate children from parents who cross legally, what’s stopping human traffickers just buddying up with a kid and claiming its theirs? They need to go through a port of entry. What is the alternative other than incarcerating children with their parents?
The sex trafficking angle is one that utterly unreported. I think leftists and libs tend to project their feel goods and pretend that anyone coming across the border is a noble savage and would never stoop to such a thing. It's another form of veiled racism.
Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
Originally Posted by Aexodus
How is it spiteful to crack down on illegal immigration? This isn’t happening to the ones who come legally, and special treatment for illegal migrants is incredibly unfair to legal migrants who do it right.
If you don’t want to separate children from parents who cross legally, what’s stopping human traffickers just buddying up with a kid and claiming its theirs? They need to go through a port of entry. What is the alternative other than incarcerating children with their parents?
I don't see what's unfair at all. Legal migrants enjoy considerably more rights and access to resources than illegal immigrants, whether we deport illegals or not. This is also why immigration trials exist. To determine whether immigrants have a good cause to be here or whether they are lying about who and what they are.
Originally Posted by JP226
The sex trafficking angle is one that utterly unreported. I think leftists and libs tend to project their feel goods and pretend that anyone coming across the border is a noble savage and would never stoop to such a thing. It's another form of veiled racism.
Yeah, because clearly Trump is trying to protect child sex slaves with his zero tolerance policy. Got it man.
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
Think about what the border officer said about parents giving their daughters birth control pills before sending them to the border with traffickers, they know that being violated is a part of this sick thing. Catch and release simply perpetuates it, there needs to be punitive punishment for all parents, traffickers, and otherwise who put children through this.
An American citizen takes his kids with him and robs a bank. All they wanted was a better life and thought this was the easiest way. The robber goes to jail and the kids are separated from their father.
54% of Americans put the blame on family separation on the parents.
Rutgers University research found that for every one illegal child who is separated from their parents there are over 1,400 American children separated
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
Originally Posted by Sukiyama
Yeah, because clearly Trump is trying to protect child sex slaves with his zero tolerance policy. Got it man.
Not following... you are saying he wants sex trafficking?
Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
Originally Posted by Aexodus
Think about what the border officer said about parents giving their daughters birth control pills before sending them to the border with traffickers, they know that being violated is a part of this sick thing. Catch and release simply perpetuates it, there needs to be punitive punishment for all parents, traffickers, and otherwise who put children through this.
.
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
Vanoi, why wouldn’t you rob a bank? Or steal a car? Or sell illegal drugs, even if you knew it could mean having a better life? Are you saying imprisonment doesn’t work as a deterrent? Because catch and release certainly won’t do anything to stop child trafficking from central America.
If they want to become law-abiding US citizens, or if they want to claim asylum, then they should go to a port of entry. Child traffickers don’t do that. American citizens aren’t allowed to jump that border either. They will be jailed too, with their kids put into care until a relative or otherwise can be found to take care of them.
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
Selling drugs and robbing a bank are no way remotely similar to crossing a border illegally. I don't even think you realize that committing a crime in the US doesn't always even end up with you going to jail. Turns out that imprisoning people for minor or non-violent crimes isn't worth the money or the severe lack of space in US prisions.
Where are we going to house the hundreds of thousands of people who cross the border every year? Where is the hundreds of millions of dollars that is going to take to house and feed all of these immigrants going to come from? Where will the children go if the don't have a relative to take care of them? The horribly run US foster system that is already dealing with thousands of foster children?
This is just going to be a giant burden to a system that is already overburdened as it is now. This isn't a solution. It's mitigating a problem by creating four or five more problems
Best/Worst quotes of TWC
Originally Posted by Kyriakos
While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
When you look at this and look at Abu Ghraib, i dare say we never killed the Nazis. You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
And what a villain, complete with tearing kids away from families, torturing and raping prisoners, assassinating, internment camps etc
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
Originally Posted by Aexodus
Think about what the border officer said about parents giving their daughters birth control pills before sending them to the border with traffickers, they know that being violated is a part of this sick thing. Catch and release simply perpetuates it, there needs to be punitive punishment for all parents, traffickers, and otherwise who put children through this.
An American citizen takes his kids with him and robs a bank. All they wanted was a better life and thought this was the easiest way. The robber goes to jail and the kids are separated from their father.
You're attempting to spin the issue. Stop. Sex trafficking has little to do with illegal immigration.
54% of Americans put the blame on family separation on the parents.
Meaningless statistics that have little to do with the subject matter. Half of America doesn't think climate change will affect them, that hardly stops the passage of time and effects of human activity on the climate.
Originally Posted by JP226
Not following... you are saying he wants sex trafficking?
I'm saying that Trump isn't doing this to combat sex trafficking nor does this tackle the issue.
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
Very weak play from Trump, it will be simple for the Democrats to spin this as "he's decided to torture children then backs down". The fact that he crumbled so fast plays into the narrative it was an electoral decision to impose the torture on the children in the first place, almost like he's appealing to a base that wants to see Latino children traumatised. I'm pretty sure that's not what he's about (its standard heavy handed "I know, push THIS button!" Trump clumsiness in the same league 'I will build a Wall" and "I will defeat ISIS in 30 days") but its a very ugly optic.
Silly whataboutism aside, when Obama had to do something revolting and immoral he stayed the course, eg keeping Guantanamo Bay operating as a gulag or trashing US privacy rights via the NSA. I guess he was a much more capable politician, more able to get things done despite the hostile congress.
Personally I oppose the separation of the kids, and that's said knowing there are hard decisions to be made in controlling immigration. There's not really good way to manage it, as Australia has found with controlling "boat people". We've used carrot and stick, increased refugee quotas plus quite illegal incarcerating people for years, so our experience doesn't give us the moral high ground or anything. Our tactics have ruined a lot of refugees mental health and there's been suicides and riots etc. so there's no silver bullet here.
Typically the Democrats are virtue harvesting this blunder, and the alt-right are spinning it to be about Obama somehow, US politics is badly broken and you can see the kids are pretty low priority to nearly all the politicians.
I hope they can work it out, the idiot in the White House lacks the subtlety to deal with this problem effectively (his efforts so far have been so clumsy and visibly destructive) and the entrenched elites in Congress do nothing to help because their tenure depends on lockstep political ping pong rather than actual problem solving. Its going to take a lot of hard work and cooperation, and will stay ugly before it gets better.
Yep, Melania Trump has been somehow coaxed out of hiding to go visit a detention centre... wearing a top that says "I don't really care, do u?". Wow.
Also, further confusion as the Border Patrol has announced it will no longer universally apply the administration's policy of bringing federal charges against illegal immigrants, in apparent contradiction of Wednesday's executive order.
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
I have been patiently waiting for every member to express outrage or support. I will now attempt to answer the original post pretty much with a direct and blunt commentary. The original poster deserves that.
Originally Posted by Ferrets54
Trump's America has begun caging children, away from their parents. Children are being abandoned with only the other children left to care for them: one sixteen year old girl told of having to teach other children how to change a two year old's diaper:
Democratic Senators who have led protests have been prevented from entering the facilities where the children are being held.
What is going on? What does this inhumanity, this barbarism, serve, even if you try to ignore the immorality of it?
First, all that Ferrets54 stated is true -- it is barbaric. We are at times very much like our barbarian ancestors. Except they did not have borders and for the most part may have killed those with whom they had disagreements but probably did not resort to cages.
Of course these are not cages but fencing. It is in all how we play out the words. I have no idea who should get the credit or blame for creating this narrative, but it is an election year and we are now in the process of finalizing candidate choices in all 50 of the states. No need for Russian or other foreign interference. We as a population can truly mess this up without any outside help.
So did Pres. Trump make an error? False question actually since there are so many errors at so many levels that I have lost count. How about the Democrats? Same -- too many errors to count. And these are only the errors on DACA, immigration, and law enforcement involved. The politicians do not want to let another party to take credit for any solution, thus no solution is possible. And, of course scream and yell that the other side is filled with evil. All standard procedure in elections. Do you wonder why Trump, the populist, was elected and why Bernie is still popular even though he is an out and out socialist unreformed? I wonder when the voters will start turning to populists as US Senators and US House members regardless of party affiliation? The problem is much deeper than Trump.
We as a nation separate parents from children all the time. Literally daily and literally in all 50 states and assorted territories. Every criminal placed in custody that has children is separated from them. So in some sense, this is all a false narrative. The problem here with these children being separated is really not the separation (which should not be standard in any case) but why there is any standard and prolonged incarceration as a response to illegal entry, asylum requests, etc.? The courts have spoken that 20 days should be enough to resolve these types of cases. I can live with that limitation and so should the Department of Justice. If a public defender prolongs this to wait out the clock, well then the children should be separated and placed in other care. But then perhaps the judge should intervene and start asking questions to all the lawyers and get to the bottom of why it takes so long. Much of this is really procedural muck that only a lawyer could understand, but speedy trials are a basic part of what should be a desired system by all parties including all politicians involved.
There, I have stated my piece. Now all members of TWC can go back to discussing that which is not worth discussing.
Oh, as a side note regarding Melania Trump, the clothes horse with the "don't really care" jacket (low priced and last years clothing) -- I think she was making a political statement that the White House then tried to massage for their own purposes. My guess is that all the political hay being made is by politicians that don't really care. Even the reporters and media talking heads do not really care. Otherwise, we would not be having these sort of problems in the first place. I might want a male version for myself.
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
Agreed, but then I am probably not on the right side of history. I wonder though if the ones calling them cages may be nit picking just a tad too much as well. Of course even if fenced or caged in like animals, it will still be the same as caged. It is all in how a person wants to phrase any narrative for political purposes. Confined. Jailed. Caged.
The problem is still why this mess is taking so long at the border to resolve.
I understand that asylum cases without documentation are not easy to resolve, but resolve them quickly even if hard to resolve. And asylum cases should not be the people we cage in any case. IF asking for asylum, why can we not simply finger print, photograph, etc. after a brief holding in an office (not a cage) while some attempt is made to confirm identities or at least internation wants and warrants?
And if the request is at the Mexican / US border, why detention versus return to the Mexican side of the border and come to the border again at the court date? There should be no need for detention in most asylum cases. If might not hurt to ask for some cooperation from the friendly government in Mexico rather than blaming the Mexican government for our domestic issues.
The Trump administration has declared a new "zero-tolerance" policy of prosecuting every immigrant arrested for illegal entry, a practice that is separating parents from their children. Asylum-seekers who turn themselves in to border inspectors usually do not face such a fate.
At the Hidalgo, Texas, border crossing, parents and children sleep on cardboard on a bridge separating the two countries, waiting for U.S. authorities to signal their time has come, according to volunteers bringing them food and water.
Lawyers said asylum-seekers at the Nogales, Arizona, crossing are camping out for up for five days to make a claim.
Across from San Diego, more than 100 asylum-seekers gathered Monday in a large plaza at the Tijuana side of the nation's busiest border crossing, alongside pushcart vendors selling oatmeal, tamales, burritos and smoothies. Families whose numbers aren't called return to Tijuana migrant shelters to pass the time.
So does this mean all of the adults jailed and separated from children are charged with illegal entry? If so, how long does the process take from charge to conviction to deportation? And why is there some other option such as voluntary leaving of the country offered after photo and finger printing? I understand about repeat offenders, but really are these really repeat offenders?
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
Here are the places in Mexico ant person could stop at and ask for refuge before attempting to run the border
Last edited by Big War Bird; June 21, 2018 at 11:35 PM.
As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.
Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately
ing Christ. And people wonder why Trump is shouting about fake news.
Originally Posted by Himster
Reply With Quote
