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Thread: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

  1. #561

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    With beliefs like that I'm glad you weren't born in Nazi Germany. Civil disobedience is an american tradition.
    "Pride is not the antidote of Shame but its source, humility is its only true antidote." - Iroh

    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    @ Elfdude, I don't give a for your condescending appraisal of my strategy. You haven't addresses a single point because I think you're unable to. I'm embarrassed for you honestly. Never has somebody so pathetically claimed the moral high ground. Piss poor debating, piss poor. I accept your surrender. Absolutely pathetic. Phalera my ass.
    When all else fails insult your opponents.

  2. #562

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfdude View Post
    With beliefs like that I'm glad you weren't born in Nazi Germany. Civil disobedience is an american tradition.
    Only within reason, laws have to be respected at some level in society or you have a breakdown of society. Having the odd joint is against the law in many places and that's reasonable to subvert, but to physically harm others or steal is a clear example of overstepping. Even if we go down to a purely civil matter such as not paying taxes, the law must be enforced to ensure the stability of society. What gets me is how you're unable to understand the nuance of this and have to jump to making nazi comparisons, it speaks volumes about your perception of what are otherwise complex issues.

    In terms of border enforcement, civil disobedience or not, the borders need to be enforced to stop a floodgates opening type situation. As it stands, if there were only a few border jumpers it wouldn't be such an issue. Instead the number has crept up to the point where there are millions of "undocumented" (illegal) migrants residing in the states. Even what are seen as unfair laws are often in place to do as we say in Britain, prevent people from taking the piss.

  3. #563
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn View Post
    This has to be one of the most ignorant and ridiculous things ever posted on this forum... The Indigenous peoples of the Americas almost certainly could NOT have stopped the immigration/invasion of Europeans into their homelands. For one, they didn't have a freaking navy to stop all the damn boats crossing the Atlantic. Secondly, they didn't even smelt iron and were painfully disadvantaged by their lack of technological progress compared with the Europeans, who had freaking guns. Third, the Europeans brought tons of diseases with them that the indigenous peoples had no evolutionary experience dealing with, meaning that huge swathes of their population died simply by coming into contact with Europeans. Try stopping the European colonization when suddenly 50% or more of your entire tribal confederacy is suffering from smallpox. Yeah, not gonna happen. They also almost certainly did see it as a problem, and those who didn't see European colonization as a problem quickly changed their tune as the Europeans grew more and more aggressive and expansionary.


    If they could have stopped them, I'm almost positive they would have, because the end result of European immigration/invasion/colonization into the Americas was the genocide of countless indigenous tribes and the destruction of their culture and identity.


    In case you didn't realize, Aexodus was talking about indigenous peoples, and not "native" colonists who'd been living in America for a century or two. So if you were confused about that point, I guess I can forgive the wildly ignorant claim that the Natives could have stopped European colonization/immigration or didn't see it as a problem.
    Actually if the colony was quite new, despite heavily reduced numbers there would have been a good possibility that an indigenous tribe or state could destroy it especially if it was nomadic. Take for example the Mapuche who through a series of revolts over the 16th to early 19th centuries managed to destroy seven major Spanish outposts in Chile multiple times from a period from 1598 to the mid 17th centuries, halting the Spanish conquest of Araucania and the Mapuche managed to retain their independence until the mid to late 19th century when Argentina and Chile managed to conquer the Mapuche and the rest of Patagonia.


    Also I think you're overestimating the role of superior European technology had in the conquest of the Americas, gunpowder weapons and horses especially during the 15th to early 17th centuries were often in short supply. Arqubuses and cavalry often made great psychological weapons at first due to their noise but over time the natives would gradually develop new tactics to deal and would get used to them, allowing the natives to easily counteract them. By around the mid 17th to 18th centuries, indigenous tribes all over the Americas were using metal tools, lots of guns and horses completely transforming their entire lifestyle and methods of warfare. The Spanish often had to rely on local infighting and tens or even hundreds of thousands of native auxilaries and sometimes an absurd amount of luck to conquer the Aztecs, the Incan Empire and other indigenous civilisations.

  4. #564

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by joethepro36 View Post
    Only within reason, laws have to be respected at some level in society or you have a breakdown of society. Having the odd joint is against the law in many places and that's reasonable to subvert, but to physically harm others or steal is a clear example of overstepping. Even if we go down to a purely civil matter such as not paying taxes, the law must be enforced to ensure the stability of society. What gets me is how you're unable to understand the nuance of this and have to jump to making nazi comparisons, it speaks volumes about your perception of what are otherwise complex issues.
    What speaks volumes is that you don't understand how our society works. First off the US accepts less proportional immigrants and refugees than the UK does by almost 50%, Second the US's legal immigration waitlist for most countries (and we sort it by country which means some have no waitlist) is up to 22 years preventing anyone from legally migrating no matter what the circumstances, Third immigrants in the US pay taxes and especially undocumented ones use almost no social welfare whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by joethepro36 View Post
    In terms of border enforcement, civil disobedience or not, the borders need to be enforced to stop a floodgates opening type situation. As it stands, if there were only a few border jumpers it wouldn't be such an issue. Instead the number has crept up to the point where there are millions of "undocumented" (illegal) migrants residing in the states. Even what are seen as unfair laws are often in place to do as we say in Britain, prevent people from taking the piss.
    There is no floodgates situation, there are not a higher number of undocumented migrants living in the US than most western countries, in fact there's far fewer.

    https://immigration.procon.org/view....ourceID=005235

    There's about the same as elsewhere, except that we have significantly more harmful laws:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...countries.html

    Ultimately, undocumented immigrants qualify for no state aid, they work for jobs which are automatically assessed taxes because it provides the businesses which hire them plausible deniability (businesses are culpable for paying immigrants under the table) allowing them to hire immigrants with impunity. They pay billions of dollars in taxes and see none of it back.
    "Pride is not the antidote of Shame but its source, humility is its only true antidote." - Iroh

    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    @ Elfdude, I don't give a for your condescending appraisal of my strategy. You haven't addresses a single point because I think you're unable to. I'm embarrassed for you honestly. Never has somebody so pathetically claimed the moral high ground. Piss poor debating, piss poor. I accept your surrender. Absolutely pathetic. Phalera my ass.
    When all else fails insult your opponents.

  5. #565

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfdude View Post
    What speaks volumes is that you don't understand how our society works. First off the US accepts less proportional immigrants and refugees than the UK does by almost 50%, Second the US's legal immigration waitlist for most countries (and we sort it by country which means some have no waitlist) is up to 22 years preventing anyone from legally migrating no matter what the circumstances, Third immigrants in the US pay taxes and especially undocumented ones use almost no social welfare whatsoever.
    I also think the UK accepts far, far too many migrants as is. That the USA accepts proportionally less does not necessarily make it a-okay. A country is not obligated to let anyone in.

    As for your last line in bold:
    In post #414:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15622566
    Refugees cost more than they provide for the USA.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...llion-annuall/

    The National Academies found that first-generation immigrants (who were born outside of the United States) cost governments more money than the native-born population. The costs are largely taken on by state and local governments that educate the immigrants’ children.


    But members of the second generation "are among the strongest economic and fiscal contributors in the U.S. population," the report said, with tax contributions greater than their parents and the native-born population.
    It is not a clear cut situation of immigrants being a net benefit to the country economically. It takes a lot of time for a newly arrived citizen to contribute. Many of the sources I checked out other than that posted share the same conclusion that working out the precise costs of illegal migration or immigration in general is extremely difficult. As such it is inappropriate for either of us to make sweeping assertions about the costs or benefits of migration in the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfdude View Post
    There is no floodgates situation, there are not a higher number of undocumented migrants living in the US than most western countries, in fact there's far fewer.

    https://immigration.procon.org/view....ourceID=005235
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    From your own source^. I see you're regressed into lie mode now, why debate when you can just blatantly lie about everything? This is your own source. Did you read it? Did you look at it? This is at the top of it.
    Step it up mate, if this is not a simple mistake its arguing in extremely bad faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfdude View Post
    There's about the same as elsewhere, except that we have significantly more harmful laws:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...countries.html

    Ultimately, undocumented immigrants qualify for no state aid, they work for jobs which are automatically assessed taxes because it provides the businesses which hire them plausible deniability (businesses are culpable for paying immigrants under the table) allowing them to hire immigrants with impunity. They pay billions of dollars in taxes and see none of it back.

    https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fi...mmigration.pdf

    Again you're asserting that migration is universally an economic benefit when the reality is more complex and difficult to measure. I'm not going to assert migrants are universally bad because that's out of line from what the evidence holds in the same way seeing it as a universal positive is.

    The available estimates of the budgetary impact of unauthorizedimmigrants vary greatly in their timing andscope. Most of the studies that include both revenues andcosts for multiple programs show that state and local governmentsspend more on unauthorized immigrants thanthey collect in revenues from that population. Forexample:B Recent estimates indicate that annual costs for unauthorizedimmigrants in Colorado were between$217 million and $225 million for education, Medicaid,and corrections.42 By comparison, taxes collectedfrom unauthorized immigrants at both the state andlocal levels amounted to an estimated $159 million to$194 million annually.43
    B The Iowa Legislative Services Agency reported that theestimated 70,000 unauthorized immigrants in thestate paid between $45.5 million and $70.9 million instate income and sales taxes in fiscal year 2004.44 Thereport did not quantify the costs of providing specificservices to unauthorized immigrants. Rather, it estimatedan average benefit of $1,534 per state residentbased on total spending from the state’s general fundand the number of state residents (including unauthorizedimmigrants). Using that average benefit calculation,the estimated cost for providing all services tounauthorized immigrants was $107.4 million in fiscalyear 2004.
    In 2006, the Missouri Budget Project estimated thatunauthorized immigrants paid between $29 millionand $57 million in state income, property, and excisetaxes.45 That organization estimated that the statespent between $17.5 million and $32.6 million toprovide elementary and secondary education forbetween 5,800 and 10,833 unauthorized immigrants.Local districts incurred between $26.5 million and$49.3 million in additional costs for educationalservices.
    The New Mexico Fiscal Policy Project estimated thatthe state collects about $69 million annually in individualincome, property, and sales taxes from unauthorizedimmigrants, about $1 million to $2 millionmore annually than it spends on public elementaryand secondary education for children who are unauthorizedimmigrants
    This is why I made comments about you not understanding nuance in all of this. The situation is not a black white one, but a complex one with many grey areas. For example even with the variety of data that points to conclusions in all directions, we have not even discussed social issues or integration of immigrants in a cultural sense.

  6. #566

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfdude View Post
    What speaks volumes is that you don't understand how our society works. ...undocumented ones use almost no social welfare whatsoever.....Ultimately, undocumented immigrants qualify for no state aid
    All forms of public assistance count. Benefits obtained through loopholes also count. Benefits for their kids definitely count.

  7. #567

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by tentaku View Post
    All forms of public assistance count. Benefits obtained through loopholes also count. Benefits for their kids definitely count.
    They also pay taxes.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  8. #568
    Diocle's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    They also pay taxes.
    Illegal immigrants are criminals, so I don't see how they can pay taxes!

  9. #569

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Illegal immigrants are criminals, so I don't see how they can pay taxes!
    How do you figure they get around sales tax?
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

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