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Thread: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

  1. #1
    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Praetorio
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    Default Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Trump's America has begun caging children, away from their parents. Children are being abandoned with only the other children left to care for them: one sixteen year old girl told of having to teach other children how to change a two year old's diaper:

    https://www.apnews.com/9794de32d39d4c6f89fbefaea3780769


    Democratic Senators who have led protests have been prevented from entering the facilities where the children are being held.

    What is going on? What does this inhumanity, this barbarism, serve, even if you try to ignore the immorality of it?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately



    It was going on under Obama as well, many of the pictures circulating online about it are from 2014, so it's not ''Trump's America'', the title is misleading.

    Let's also post some of this ''Auschwitz'' style horror going under Trump:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Oh no, chips, hamburger and plasma screens, Blumpf is totally Hitler!

    Garbage thread. Not a single sentence that doesn't contain a lie, fake liberal outrage or pure propaganda. Ferrets46 is lying.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; June 18, 2018 at 03:59 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Let's also post some of this ''Auschwitz'' style horror going under Trump:
    Oh no, chips, hamburger and plasma screens, Blumpf is totally Hitler!
    So, its ok to separate children from their parents on the border because the children are given chips and hamburgers?


    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Garbage thread. Not a single sentence that doesn't contain a lie, fake liberal outrage or pure propaganda.
    Children are being abandoned with only the other children left to care for them: one sixteen year old girl told of having to teach other children how to change a two year old's diaper
    Democratic Senators who have led protests have been prevented from entering the facilities where the children are being held.
    What makes these two sentences lies?
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    So, its ok to separate children from their parents on the border because the children are given chips and hamburgers?
    Strawman.
    As the CNN, a liberal media, shows, a Democratic Representative says that children often come without parents, hence there's noone to separate them from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post

    What makes these two sentences lies?
    Also above, Democrats have had access to it since at least 2014.

    So strawmen and fake news. Great job!

    But since you want to play, let's play:
    -Why were you and Ferrets46 quiet about this when it was going on under Obama?
    -Why did Ferrets46 blame an Obama policy on Trump?
    -Why did he call immoral and barbaric the service of hamburgers and plasma screens?
    -Isn't all of this dishonest liberal propaganda?
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; June 18, 2018 at 04:20 AM.

  5. #5
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Trump's America has begun caging children,
    Obama's america did that aswell. Trump's america certainly didn't begin this.
    away from their parents. Children are being abandoned with only the other children left to care for them: one sixteen year old girl told of having to teach other children how to change a two year old's diaper:

    https://www.apnews.com/9794de32d39d4c6f89fbefaea3780769


    Democratic Senators who have led protests have been prevented from entering the facilities where the children are being held.

    What is going on? What does this inhumanity, this barbarism, serve, even if you try to ignore the immorality of it?
    Not one word about them being illegals. Classy.


  6. #6

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    T What does this inhumanity, this barbarism, serve, even if you try to ignore the immorality of it?
    From the article you linked:

    In Texas’ Rio Grande Valley, the busiest corridor for people trying to enter the U.S., Border Patrol officials argue that they have to crack down on migrants and separate adults from children as a deterrent to others.

    “When you exempt a group of people from the law ... that creates a draw,” said Manuel Padilla, the Border Patrol’s chief agent here. “That creates the trends right here.”
    The situation for children is always less than ideal when their parents are taken into custody by law enforcement. The same as when citizens are arrested, it is not technically that children are taken from the parents, but that the parents are taken from the children. The children have not been charged with a crime, the parents have - improper entry, which is a misdemeanor for the first offence, and a felony beyond that. The parents face up to six months in prison, up to two years if it's a second offense (8 U.S. Code § 1325).
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  7. #7

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Of course the liberal solution is to simly let anyone who corresponds to the right shade of brown to break any law they want, then abolish American's borders altogether. And maybe cage white people after that.

  8. #8
    Aexodus's Avatar stahp
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    A lot of you have probably seen this fake picture of a caged child.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Trump's America has begun caging children, away from their parents. Children are being abandoned with only the other children left to care for them: one sixteen year old girl told of having to teach other children how to change a two year old's diaper:

    https://www.apnews.com/9794de32d39d4c6f89fbefaea3780769


    Democratic Senators who have led protests have been prevented from entering the facilities where the children are being held.

    What is going on? What does this inhumanity, this barbarism, serve, even if you try to ignore the immorality of it?
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure you get separated from your kids if you break the law. Do you want illegals to get special treatment? Indeed, better than actual citizens?

    The child smugglers that are their parents need to enter the US by due process, not illegally.

    Ideally, the whole family would be turned back immediately, together, but I honestly don’t know if that’s possible. Hopefully it is.

    Edit: Mainstream media: ‘no law requires the separation of families’ https://youtu.be/SOrR0wpJLXw

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    Last edited by Aexodus; June 18, 2018 at 05:03 AM.
    Under the patronage of Pontifex Maximus

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    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post
    I don't understand, clearly if white people simply made better choices to treat others as their equal there wouldn't be all of this justified pushback.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    How about providing some context, i.e. why are those children there in the first place? But no, it's always dramatic handwringing and appeals to emotion. Same as with the topic of "refugees" entering Europe.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Strawman.
    As the CNN, a liberal media, shows, a Democratic Representative says that children often come without parents, hence there's noone to separate them from.
    It's not a strawman. You simply thought of that answer now. Before, you were responding to separation of children from their parents, and your argument was that they were getting chips and hambugers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Also above, Democrats have had access to it since at least 2014.

    So strawmen and fake news. Great job!

    But since you want to play, let's play:
    -Why were you and Ferrets46 quiet about this when it was going on under Obama?
    -Why did Ferrets46 blame an Obama policy on Trump?
    -Why did he call immoral and barbaric the service of hamburgers and plasma screens?
    -Isn't all of this dishonest liberal propaganda?
    You didn't address the first statement being a lie and you need to show us that Democrats were allowed into these facilities, specifically Democratic Sen. Jeff Merkley of Oregon.

    The least you could do is to not make the hypocrisy so damn obvious. You falsely accuse me of using a strawman and then talk about Ferrets46, where he actually called separation of children from their parents with no adult supervision as barbaric, and calling hamburgers and "plasma" screens as barbaric. This was a really stupid argument on your part. You are trying to deflect with all these questions, of course.
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  11. #11
    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Praetorio
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Obama's america did that aswell. Trump's america certainly didn't begin this.

    Not one word about them being illegals. Classy.
    lol here's a shocking fact for you: I don't think children should be separated from their parents, caged and not provided care because they're illegal immigrants. It's grossly unethical and unnecessary, a barbaric policy by Trump's draconian Attorney General.

  12. #12
    Katsumoto de Voltaire's Avatar laughs boisterously
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    The situation for children is always less than ideal when their parents are taken into custody by law enforcement. The same as when citizens are arrested, it is not technically that children are taken from the parents, but that the parents are taken from the children. The children have not been charged with a crime, the parents have - improper entry, which is a misdemeanor for the first offence, and a felony beyond that. The parents face up to six months in prison, up to two years if it's a second offense (8 U.S. Code § 1325).
    The link doesn't seem to mention anything about having to separate the children from their parents, and I haven't found anything to suggest children need to be separated according to the law. The reason it's apparently being implemented is to act as deterrent, which seems intentionally cruel and immoral.

    But Mr. Trump was misrepresenting his own policy. There is no law that says children must be taken from their parents if they cross the border unlawfully, and previous administrations have made exceptions for those traveling with minor children when prosecuting immigrants for illegal entry. A “zero tolerance” policy created by the president in April and put into effect last month by the attorney general, Jeff Sessions, allows no such exceptions, Mr. Trump’s advisers say.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/u...on-border.html
    'There are clearly two sides, and those two sides are not the same. The right is more insular; it’s more extreme; it’s more partisan,” Faris said of the findings. “That’s not a subjective opinion; that’s an empirical observation. And much of what we try to do in this book is to document that and understand what it means and how it’s reflected in different behavior.'

    Network Propaganda: Manipulation, Disinformation, and Radicalization in American Politics

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    Aexodus's Avatar stahp
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto
    previous administrations have made exceptions for those traveling with minor children
    From the OP link

    Padilla said agents in the Rio Grande Valley have allowed families with children under the age of 5 to stay together in most cases.
    So is it or is it not a zero tolerance policy?
    Under the patronage of Pontifex Maximus

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    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post
    I don't understand, clearly if white people simply made better choices to treat others as their equal there wouldn't be all of this justified pushback.

  14. #14
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    And while we're pulling apart the thread...

    Ferrets54 - "Trump has ordered this thing"

    Basil II the B.S - "But Obama did it too"


    Which is classic whataboutery.

    Let's stay on target guys. Basil, try defending Trump rather than accusing others of doing stuff... "But they did it too" isn't going to get you off a wrap in court
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    So is it or is it not a zero tolerance policy?
    Why are you asking me? It's what Trump's advisers, including Stephen Miller, have said:

    But Mr. Miller has expressed none of the president’s misgivings. “No nation can have the policy that whole classes of people are immune from immigration law or enforcement,” he said during an interview in his West Wing office this past week. “It was a simple decision by the administration to have a zero tolerance policy for illegal entry, period. The message is that no one is exempt from immigration law.”
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/16/u...ion-trump.html

    For the record this doesn't seem to have happened under Obama. From the same link:

    “The agencies were surfacing every possible idea,” Cecilia Muñoz, Mr. Obama’s top domestic policy adviser, recalled, including whether to separate parents from their children. “I do remember looking at each other like, ‘We’re not going to do this, are we?’ We spent five minutes thinking it through and concluded that it was a bad idea. The morality of it was clear — that’s not who we are.”

    They did, however, decide to vastly expand the detention of immigrant families, opening new facilities along the border where women and young children were held for long periods while they awaited a chance to have their cases processed.

    Feel free to provide sources to the contrary. Not that Obama is particularly relevant, as Antaeus said.
    Last edited by Katsumoto de Voltaire; June 18, 2018 at 06:38 AM.
    'There are clearly two sides, and those two sides are not the same. The right is more insular; it’s more extreme; it’s more partisan,” Faris said of the findings. “That’s not a subjective opinion; that’s an empirical observation. And much of what we try to do in this book is to document that and understand what it means and how it’s reflected in different behavior.'

    Network Propaganda: Manipulation, Disinformation, and Radicalization in American Politics

  16. #16

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto de Voltaire View Post
    The link doesn't seem to mention anything about having to separate the children from their parents, and I haven't found anything to suggest children need to be separated according to the law. The reason it's apparently being implemented is to act as deterrent, which seems intentionally cruel and immoral.
    When citizens are arrested, it is standard practice that their children are taken into police custody if there are no other caregivers immediately available, but the children are not placed in the holding cell with their parents. Exceptional arrangements are made in cases of very young children, as is the case here. Children are likewise not present with parents during their prison terms, which is what these parents are potentially facing.

    The morality of deterrence is always a gray area in these types of situations. One question is what does it prevent? Hundreds of people die each year attempting to illegally cross the border into the US. Does it discourage parents from risking their children's lives? Does it discourage parents from risking being separated from their children for months or years while they're in prison?
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  17. #17
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    The old prison adage... If deterrence worked, we wouldn't need it any more.

    In project management theory there has been a lot of work into researching why people over promise, or anticipate success. It has led to new processes for procurement and planning. I feel like it may offer insights into this area as well. The outcome suggests that there's a form of positivity bias at play - whereby when people make decisions, they base them on the likelihood that they will complete a task, without problems. This seems to be consistent across the decision space. So in respect to people making the decision to do something like rob a bank or in this case cross the US border, they base their decision on the likelihood of success, rather than the consequence of failure. It really does call into question the perception that people base decisions on fear of consequence.

    But that's an aside... I'll see if I can dig up some sources if anyone is interested.


    I'm not sure that arresting people who cross a border illegally is the same as a domestic crime. So I'm not convinced that a criminal containment system is appropriate. Given the potential range of reasons for someone crossing the border - economic, refugee, criminal etc. It's obvious that there needs to be a filter system to hold and process these people. But until these people are processed and their reasons for being there identified... they should probably be treated under the assumption that they might be genuine in their reasons.
    Last edited by antaeus; June 18, 2018 at 07:08 AM. Reason: Grammar shocking.
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  18. #18
    Katsumoto de Voltaire's Avatar laughs boisterously
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    When citizens are arrested, it is standard practice that their children are taken into police custody if there are no other caregivers immediately available, but the children are not placed in the holding cell with their parents. Exceptional arrangements are made in cases of very young children, as is the case here. Children are likewise not present with parents during their prison terms, which is what these parents are potentially facing.
    I'm not sure it's helpful discussing the issue in such a general way. The people being apprehended at the border aren't citizens, nor is this necessarily a police matter.

    Unlike Mr. Obama’s administration, Mr. Trump’s is treating all people who have crossed the border without authorization as subject to criminal prosecution, even if they tell the officer apprehending them that they are seeking asylum based on fear of returning to their home country, and whether or not they have their children in tow.

    Technically, there is no Trump administration policy stating that illegal border crossers must be separated from their children. But the “zero tolerance policy” results in unlawful immigrants being taken into federal criminal custody, at which point their children are considered unaccompanied alien minors and taken away.

    __


    Under a 1997 consent decree known as the Flores settlement, unaccompanied children could be held in immigration detention for only a short period of time; in 2016, a federal judge ruled that the settlement applied to families as well, effectively requiring that they be released within 20 days. Many were released — some with GPS ankle bracelets to track their movements — and asked to return for a court date sometime in the future.

    It was Mr. Bush, who had firsthand experience with the border as governor of Texas and ran for president as a “compassionate conservative,” who initiated the “zero tolerance” approach for illegal immigration on which Mr. Trump’s policy is modeled.

    In 2005, he launched Operation Streamline, a program along a stretch of the border in Texas that referred all unlawful entrants for criminal prosecution, imprisoning them and expediting assembly-line-style trials geared toward quickly deporting them. The initiative yielded results and was soon expanded to more border sectors. Back then, however, exceptions were generally made for adults who were traveling with minor children, as well as juveniles and people who were ill.

    Mr. Obama’s administration employed the program at the height of the migration crisis as well, although it generally did not treat first-time border crossers as priorities for prosecution, and it detained families together in Immigration and Customs Enforcement custody — administrative, rather than criminal, detention.

    Discussions began almost immediately after Mr. Trump took office about vastly expanding Operation Streamline, with almost none of those limitations. Even after Mr. Kelly stopped talking publicly about family separation, the Department of Homeland Security quietly tested the approach last summer in certain areas in Texas.

    Privately, Mr. Miller argued that bringing back “zero tolerance” would be a potent tool in a severely limited arsenal of strategies for stopping migrants from flooding across the border.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz
    The morality of deterrence is always a gray area in these types of situations. One question is what does it prevent? Hundreds of people die each year attempting to illegally cross the border into the US. Does it discourage parents from risking their children's lives? Does it discourage parents from risking being separated from their children for months or years while they're in prison?
    Illegal crossing should be deterred, but there are surely better ways than intentionally separating families.
    'There are clearly two sides, and those two sides are not the same. The right is more insular; it’s more extreme; it’s more partisan,” Faris said of the findings. “That’s not a subjective opinion; that’s an empirical observation. And much of what we try to do in this book is to document that and understand what it means and how it’s reflected in different behavior.'

    Network Propaganda: Manipulation, Disinformation, and Radicalization in American Politics

  19. #19

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    The old prison adage... If deterrence worked, we wouldn't need it any more.
    Israel completely halted illegal immigration across their southern border through deterrence, but the deterrence in that case was mostly in creating a barrier no one is able to cross, making the risks getting there pointless, which is admittedly quite a bit different than just being dicks to detainees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto de Voltaire View Post
    I'm not sure it's helpful discussing the issue in such a general way. The people being apprehended at the border aren't citizens, nor is this necessarily a police matter.
    It's a law enforcement matter. I'm not appalled by the situation, because it doesn't really differ from how citizens are treated, but I do doubt it accomplishes much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto de Voltaire View Post
    Illegal crossing should be deterred, but there are surely better ways than intentionally separating families.
    I don't disagree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  20. #20

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    And while we're pulling apart the thread...

    Ferrets54 - "Trump has ordered this thing"

    Basil II the B.S - "But Obama did it too"


    Which is classic whataboutery.

    Let's stay on target guys. Basil, try defending Trump rather than accusing others of doing stuff... "But they did it too" isn't going to get you off a wrap in court
    It really isn't. Because Obama set up the thing, it happened under him, Trump didn't do squat.

    So it's not ''Obama did it too''. It's Trump didn't do it, Obama did. Now we can all discuss what should be the sentence for Barack Hitler Obama.

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