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Thread: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

  1. #681
    Praepositus
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    ...Obama was as least as hard on illegal immigrants as Trump is. He just wisely didn't make much of a fuss about it.
    This is the bottom line in this case. People want to get in t the US, there has to be some controls, however you slice it its going to be amess.

    Trump however dogwhistles racists and bigots. Its possible the separating kids from parents was meant to be mean so some voter who hates Mexicans will get out and vote at the next election.

    Its pretty disgusting to separate kids from their parents. Whoever made that call is not a nice person.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  2. #682
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    This is the bottom line in this case. People want to get in t the US, there has to be some controls, however you slice it its going to be amess.

    Trump however dogwhistles racists and bigots. Its possible the separating kids from parents was meant to be mean so some voter who hates Mexicans will get out and vote at the next election.

    Its pretty disgusting to separate kids from their parents. Whoever made that call is not a nice person.
    If the policy of separation reduces the numbers crossing the border as illegal immigrants, is it still disgusting?

    https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/tru...order-58494468

    and of course CNN has to blame Trump (the link is a bit dated):

    Trump suggests separation of families at border a ...

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/16/politics/trump-separation-families...
    Jun 16, 2018 · President Donald Trump suggested Saturday that he is using his administration's separation of families at the US border as a negotiating tool to get Democrats to cave on his immigration demands, which include funding for a border wall, curbing legal immigration into the US, and tightening the rules for border enforcement.
    But the problem is the entire illegal immigrant problem and nipping at small pieces does nothing even on the margins to make this a smaller problem. I am pretty much against insisting on comprehensive solutions to vexing political problems since that just gives the politicians excuses to do nothing. In this case, the wall is a separate issue on children separation at the border. I do not know that it is that separate though. This is not like lumping visa overstays with drug running. Pretty much the people with children are indeed crossing at the weak points and not simply walking up to border staff at the strong points and asking for asylum. So even though the June article has Trump admitting this is in part a tactic to force the Democratic party to get on board with the wall issue, the Democratic party after 5 months still insists on nipping at the details and not being serious about the problem of keeping people out until they are given permission to enter.

    So are there any in Congress within the Democratic Party that are at all serious on solving this problem? Yes that is rhetorical. There is an election on and no politician can be allowed a bit of bipartisanism and survive the election. Sad, but true.

  3. #683
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    This is the bottom line in this case. People want to get in t the US, there has to be some controls, however you slice it its going to be amess.

    Trump however dogwhistles racists and bigots. Its possible the separating kids from parents was meant to be mean so some voter who hates Mexicans will get out and vote at the next election.

    Its pretty disgusting to separate kids from their parents. Whoever made that call is not a nice person.
    Yes it is pretty disgusting to separate kids from their parents but that's not always working in both directions. You can put them into residential schools to have them screened off from dysfunctional parenthood. Some ancient Greeks did that already, not in order to ensure the favoured political programming, but to make men out of knaves.

    So why the hell not separate some (yes, i said some!) Mexican kids from their violent, dysfunctional, disgusting, addicted and inept parents who drag them over the borders of countries where they do not belong.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; October 17, 2018 at 08:33 AM. Reason: Personal/disruptive.

  4. #684
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Oh yes you did. You just don't care.
    Oops.
    You try claim the parents who bring their children here are incompetent and bad even without realizing they could be fleeing worse conditions for all you know.
    They will be reunited ffs. There is no basic human rights violation going on. So why don't you hold back your crockodile tears.

  5. #685

    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    If the policy of separation reduces the numbers crossing the border as illegal immigrants, is it still disgusting?
    Yes. Just like the policy of torturing immigrants likely would reduce the numbers of crossing but would also be disgusting. For the family values party you really don't seem to understand the value of family.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    But the problem is the entire illegal immigrant problem and nipping at small pieces does nothing even on the margins to make this a smaller problem. I am pretty much against insisting on comprehensive solutions to vexing political problems since that just gives the politicians excuses to do nothing. In this case, the wall is a separate issue on children separation at the border. I do not know that it is that separate though. This is not like lumping visa overstays with drug running. Pretty much the people with children are indeed crossing at the weak points and not simply walking up to border staff at the strong points and asking for asylum. So even though the June article has Trump admitting this is in part a tactic to force the Democratic party to get on board with the wall issue, the Democratic party after 5 months still insists on nipping at the details and not being serious about the problem of keeping people out until they are given permission to enter.
    The US southern border is one of the most fortified borders in the world. A wall will neither fix the problem nor accomplish anything other than a huge expense. We can't even deport (including trump) the number of aliens we know about through simple run ins with local law enforcement because we are unwilling to give ICE billions of dollars to do so. The cost of zero tolerance enforcement means that ICE is now deporting less people with more horrendous tactics. There's literally nothing here you can support. It's less effective, it's more monstrous, it destroys the reputation of those who push for it, it's not fiscally responsible, it's not kind and it spits in the face of the principles of the United States.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    So are there any in Congress within the Democratic Party that are at all serious on solving this problem? Yes that is rhetorical. There is an election on and no politician can be allowed a bit of bipartisanism and survive the election. Sad, but true.
    The Democratic party was able to solve this problem without separating children, without raiding universities, without denying citizenship to immigrants who had served in our military and still deported more than trump has each year since he took control, with less of a budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Yes it is pretty disgusting to separate kids from their parents but that's not always working in both directions. You can put them into residential schools to have them screened off from dysfunctional parenthood. Some ancient Greeks did that already, not in order to ensure the favoured political programming, but to make men out of knaves.
    The US does it because of the following:

    1. We need young people, the birth rate is very low
    2. Young children can apply for citizenship relatively easy and if they grow up in the US they typically have US customs and sensibilities
    3. We don't typically blame children for the error of their parents
    4. The US is an immigrant nation, we believe everyone should be able to seek an opportunity
    5. If a parent is going to sacrifice everything for a shot at a better life we believe that they should get that shot
    6. Separation of Parents and their Children is considered an international violation of rights
    7. We have as a country sanctioned other countries for this act

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    So why the hell not separate some (yes, i said some!) Mexican kids from their violent, dysfunctional, disgusting, addicted and inept parents who drag them over the borders of countries where they do not belong.
    Most Mexican parents who have been separated from their children are not this. Of the thousands of children separated only 64 fell into this descriptor from ICE's own data. Of course ICE has refused to define what they mean by prohibitive criminal record and when challenged in court it has proven to be things like driving without a license, criminal allegations unsubstantiated in court, misdemenors, tax fraud/evasion. Less than 10 fall into the category of criminals we would separate US parents from their children for.

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Oops.

    They will be reunited ffs. There is no basic human rights violation going on. So why don't you hold back your crockodile tears.
    What do you mean? There's more than 400 parents who cannot be reunited because they've been deported without their children. There's more than 200 who we have no clue who their parents were because documentation was poorly kept. ICE literally lost their parents. ICE has put children as young as 2 in court and forced children as young as 5 to sign away their rights.

    Seriously, this whole argument is about trying to match propaganda which is obviously wrong against the hard facts. There is no way you can defend these policies. They are ineffective, they are expensive, they are unethical, they are immoral.
    "Pride is not the antidote of Shame but its source, humility is its only true antidote." - Iroh

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    @ Elfdude, I don't give a for your condescending appraisal of my strategy. You haven't addresses a single point because I think you're unable to. I'm embarrassed for you honestly. Never has somebody so pathetically claimed the moral high ground. Piss poor debating, piss poor. I accept your surrender. Absolutely pathetic. Phalera my ass.
    When all else fails insult your opponents.

  6. #686
    Vanoi's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Oops.

    They will be reunited ffs. There is no basic human rights violation going on. So why don't you hold back your crockodile tears.
    If you actually have been paying ing attention at all, many families are still separated past what is legally allowed under law. I just said that in my post. Do you even know what the hell we are even talking about?
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  7. #687
    Praepositus
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    Default Re: Trump's America is taking children away from their parents at the border and detaining them separately

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    If the policy of separation reduces the numbers crossing the border as illegal immigrants, is it still disgusting?...
    Yes. My country is doing something similar, we have illegally imprisoned a bunch of boat people in Nauru, where they are essentially being tortured by being held in inhumane conditions for unbelievable lengths of time. Its supposed to dissuade future boat people and shut down a dangerous trade (lots of refugees we drowning) and its been a success. Initially it was done on the hush-hush (the UN knew but doidn;t fuss much as we weren't publicising it), but one politician decided to use it to snatch the racist vote an important few percent in a swing state Queensland which is like out Texas+Florida+Alabama.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    So are there any in Congress within the Democratic Party that are at all serious on solving this problem? Yes that is rhetorical. There is an election on and no politician can be allowed a bit of bipartisanism and survive the election. Sad, but true.
    Very true, the US political system milks these people's suffering both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Yes it is pretty disgusting to separate kids from their parents but that's not always working in both directions. You can put them into residential schools to have them screened off from dysfunctional parenthood. Some ancient Greeks did that already, not in order to ensure the favoured political programming, but to make men out of knaves.

    So why the hell not separate some (yes, i said some!) Mexican kids from their violent, dysfunctional, disgusting, addicted and inept parents who drag them over the borders of countries where they do not belong.
    Pragmatically it may work. I take the point both you and NT made above, its been effective in our case. Maybe it will be a long term fix for the US?

    I wouldn't assume it would though, the US Mexican border is not the Indian Ocean and the cross border trade is a very different beast there. For one thing the seasonal US labour market actually relies on young men skipping across, that's a massive flow the US will never stem. the families come across on top of that.

    I think the reason for mistreating the kids is to rally racist votes for Trump, and it has nothing to do with security or whatnot. I think the Democrats will milk it rather than stop it for now. No one looks good here, but the parents and kids are the least wretched and evil here (and they're the ones breaking the law).
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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