Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

[Candy_Licker]

Keep in mind that when we speak about fascism we think about the end product(the dictatorship and the crimes during ww2). But fascism did not start like that. Fascism started with "harmless" propaganda( "the Jews and the left are responsible for everything")and by winning elections. Both Mussolini and Hitler took power through elections blaming Jews and leftists and promising rejuvenation of their countries. After taking power legally and sometimes using the democratic system they crashed all opposition but crowds didnt care. Germany and Italy continued to hold "elections" till ww2 started and many Italians and Germans had the dellusion that their system was democratic. We could live in the early stages of a similar scenario

The development in the USA / European countries bears more similarities to the crisis and end of the Roman Republic than the rise of facism imo.

[95thrifleman]

Keep in mind that when we speak about fascism we think about the end product(the dictatorship and the crimes during ww2). But fascism did not start like that. Fascism started with "harmless" propaganda( "the Jews and the left are responsible for everything")and by winning elections. Both Mussolini and Hitler took power through elections blaming Jews and leftists and promising rejuvenation of their countries. After taking power legally and sometimes using the democratic system they crashed all opposition but crowds didnt care. Germany and Italy continued to hold "elections" till ww2 started and many Italians and Germans had the dellusion that their system was democratic. We could live in the early stages of a similar scenario

The Turks certainly are.

[Heathen Hammer]

Yes yes, I get that you hate libtards and therefor they are fascists because fascists is just another term for bad and libtards are bad. Meanwhile, in the US, we have actual groups that specifically use rhetoric used by Nazis (chanting blood and soil, saying Hail Trump, etc). Those aren't the libtards.

Um, what? Your post literally has nothing to do with what I said. I was quite clear that modern euroskeptics/democratic nationalists (which are heavily libertarian policy-wise) share far less similarities with 1930s European authoritarians then modern-day liberal left, which actively engages into undermining democratic process, restricting individual freedoms, imposing state control, taxation, etc.

wut? I don't think so. Otherwise, how could they vote Trump for example, or Republicans in general? Trump may play the nationalistic prollionaire & champion of the people, but while he panders to tribalism (similar to the SJW's/intersectionalists) by protectionism & anti immigration, his neoliberal friends continue devour the country just like under Clinton / Bush.

People bickering over these stupid cultural wars, while the plutocrats have both sides covered. They go against Soros while their movement is under the spell of the Mercer's, Koch Brothers, Murdochs etc. It's ridiculous.

It's shocking that Western democracies are all so undermined that there are no viable alternatives in sight. Hillary or Trump, Thatcher or Blair, Schröder, Macron etc, it all comes down to the same.

Life - the way it really is - is a battle not between good and bad, but between bad and worse.

Protectionism and anti-immigration have nothing to do with tribalism, those are economic means for economic ends.

[Candy_Licker]

Um, what? Your post literally has nothing to do with what I said. I was quite clear that modern euroskeptics/democratic nationalists (which are heavily libertarian policy-wise) share far less similarities with 1930s European authoritarians then modern-day liberal left, which actively engages into undermining democratic process, restricting individual freedoms, imposing state control, taxation, etc.

Protectionism and anti-immigration have nothing to do with tribalism, those are economic means for economic ends.

Sure... nothing to do with racism. yep.

There's a difference between we can't take in any more immigrants for economic reasons and they are thieves and rapists and drug dealers

Regardless, my point still stands: do you want to deny that Trump & his billionaire friends / backers / members of government are neoliberal leeches that suck this country dry?

All I see is that the robber barons have returned and the whole right spectrum is either oblivious to it or openly endorses it.

[Heathen Hammer]

Sure... nothing to do with racism. yep.

There's a difference between we can't take in any more immigrants for economic reasons and they are thieves and rapists and drug dealers

Regardless, my point still stands: do you want to deny that Trump & his billionaire friends / backers / members of government are neoliberal leeches that suck this country dry?

All I see is that the robber barons have returned and the whole right spectrum is either oblivious to it or openly endorses it.

How are tariffs racist? Or having functioning borders is also racist? Seriously, the word has lost all its meaning because it has been used in regards to pretty much anything that liberals don't like or simply don't understand.
Immigrants from countries that are run by cartels are likely to be dangerous, it isn't racist to acknowledge facts.
US had a parasitic elite that was sucking it dry since early XX century. That applies to pretty much every Western country. It is quite clear that elites themselves view Trump as an eccentric outsider, at the same time some of his policies are quite sane, at least in comparison to his less competent but predecessors, who were quite loyal to their banker/MIC masters in terms being ready to start major wars at a whim.

[The spartan]

Um, what? Your post literally has nothing to do with what I said. I was quite clear that modern euroskeptics/democratic nationalists (which are heavily libertarian policy-wise) share far less similarities with 1930s European authoritarians then modern-day liberal left, which actively engages into undermining democratic process, restricting individual freedoms, imposing state control, taxation, etc.

I mean, that isn't really true. Populists in the US are by no means libertarian, and I don't think they are in the EU either. Libertarians are pro free-trade and pro-quick immigration as those are only limited by artificial government controls anyways. Libertarians are very rarely also Nationalists.

And the second part is just you listing off things you don't like and blaming it on "liberals". Like, taxation? Really? Taxation is a policy liberals have in common with fascists? Liberals and Fascists are the only political groups that tax people?

Protectionism and anti-immigration have nothing to do with tribalism

What? Do you know what tribalism is? The crux (and evolutionary usefulness) for tribalism is that there is an "us" to be separate and protected from "them". Our tribe vs some other tribe. Nationalism is like tribalism on a big scale.

[Candy_Licker]

How are tariffs racist? Or having functioning borders is also racist? Seriously, the word has lost all its meaning because it has been used in regards to pretty much anything that liberals don't like or simply don't understand.
Immigrants from countries that are run by cartels are likely to be dangerous, it isn't racist to acknowledge facts.
US had a parasitic elite that was sucking it dry since early XX century. That applies to pretty much every Western country. It is quite clear that elites themselves view Trump as an eccentric outsider, at the same time some of his policies are quite sane, at least in comparison to his less competent but predecessors, who were quite loyal to their banker/MIC masters in terms being ready to start major wars at a whim.

Like implied, protectionism and closed borders are not racist itself. But let's not dwell on that.

Yes, the elites have been sucking in the Gilded Age... until presidents like Franklin D came along and kept them in check. Since Reagan, the USA have been working towards a new Gilded Age. Turncoat democrats like the Clintons, or in other countries Schröder, Blair etc or limousine liberals have drunk the Chicago Boys Kool Aid, but the main drivers (or should I say vehicles) have always been mainstream conservatives, and worst of it all, sociopathic Ayn Rand libertarians.

Trump is doubling down on neoliberal robbery, you really have to be blind to see otherwise. But I guess as long as he eats MC Donalds, loves Wrestling and is against immigration, common people think he gives a damn about them. lol It's beyond bizarre really. He can really pee down people's back and tell them it's raining.

Trump may have been an "outsider" since he lacks the decorum, but he's been sucking up to his billionaire friends all his life, and has turned this office into a shameless nepotistic kleptocracy worse than Hillary could have done.

[Infidel144]

And the second part is just you listing off things you don't like and blaming it on "liberals". Like, taxation? Really? Taxation is a policy liberals have in common with fascists? Liberals and Fascists are the only political groups that tax people?

This is what Fascism demands for taxation:
"a) A strong progressive tax on capital that will truly expropriate a portion of all wealth."
Does that read more like what "liberals" (I presume HH is using 'liberal' in the American sense) want, or claim to want, or some other 'political group'?

[Roma_Victrix]

The progressive democratic socialist candidate Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez just beat the establishment corporate Democrat and incumbent Democratic Caucus Chairman (!!!) Joe Crowley in the Democratic primary for New York's 14th congressional district. Crowley feuded with Nancy Pelosi for years, but he finally obtained a high position in the party, only to be blindsided and beaten by this young Hispanic newcomer who reached out to voters on a daily basis and produced some amazing TV ads despite her limited funding compared to Crowley. Although Ocasio-Cortez worked very hard for this victory, knocking on doors for over a year, her win represents a huge sea change in the electorate and perhaps reflects the mood of this part of the country. One could perhaps extrapolate that for the rest of the country, but I don't want to get carried away with generalizations, since the US is a huge nation and not every district has the same concerns or voting patterns, obviously. Still, it is an indication of where things are moving. If the Dems have any brains at all, they will investigate how she won and seek to emulate that model for their own campaign strategies before voters hit the booths in November.

[95thrifleman]

The problem with populism is how easy it is and how dumb the average voter of any given county is likely to be.

Take Trump's travel ban: North Korea, Syria, Iran, Yemen, Libya, Somalia and Venezuela.

It is MEANINGLESS!

People in NK are not allowed by the NK state to travel to America anyway, Libya isn't even a functional country anymore, how many people from Somalia or Yemen can even afford to fly to America if they wanted to? Syria is an enemy stae and any Syrian who wants to go to America has more to worry about from the state authorities than America.

Venezuela was just thrown in so Trmp could claim brown skins where being banned.

The ban will have no effect on immigration, terrorism or trade but it's got so many people hopping. Populist governments just need to keep throwing bread and circuses at the voters to make it work.

[Heathen Hammer]

I mean, that isn't really true. Populists in the US are by no means libertarian, and I don't think they are in the EU either. Libertarians are pro free-trade and pro-quick immigration as those are only limited by artificial government controls anyways. Libertarians are very rarely also Nationalists.

Thats a very odd understanding of what libertarianism really is, I don't think such views on borders and immigration are shared by them at all.
This video debunks the whole notion that open borders is a pro-libertarian idea:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And the second part is just you listing off things you don't like and blaming it on "liberals". Like, taxation? Really? Taxation is a policy liberals have in common with fascists? Liberals and Fascists are the only political groups that tax people?

Well thats more of an authoritarian trend.

What? Do you know what tribalism is? The crux (and evolutionary usefulness) for tribalism is that there is an "us" to be separate and protected from "them". Our tribe vs some other tribe. Nationalism is like tribalism on a big scale.

Again, protectionism and anti-immigration are economic means to economic ends. I'm honestly surprised that I have to explain this.

Like implied, protectionism and closed borders are not racist itself. But let's not dwell on that.

Yes, the elites have been sucking in the Gilded Age... until presidents like Franklin D came along and kept them in check. Since Reagan, the USA have been working towards a new Gilded Age. Turncoat democrats like the Clintons, or in other countries Schröder, Blair etc or limousine liberals have drunk the Chicago Boys Kool Aid, but the main drivers (or should I say vehicles) have always been mainstream conservatives, and worst of it all, sociopathic Ayn Rand libertarians.

Trump is doubling down on neoliberal robbery, you really have to be blind to see otherwise. But I guess as long as he eats MC Donalds, loves Wrestling and is against immigration, common people think he gives a damn about them. lol It's beyond bizarre really. He can really pee down people's back and tell them it's raining.

Trump may have been an "outsider" since he lacks the decorum, but he's been sucking up to his billionaire friends all his life, and has turned this office into a shameless nepotistic kleptocracy worse than Hillary could have done.

As I pointed out in other thread, Trump is basically is to USA what Tito is for Yugoslavia. US is essentially 11 different nations that are held up by rather vague and self-contradicting ideas and Trump is trying to pull it together before its inevitable collapse.

[irontaino]

The progressive democratic socialist candidate Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez just beat the establishment corporate Democrat and incumbent Democratic Caucus Chairman (!!!) Joe Crowley in the Democratic primary for New York's 14th congressional district. Crowley feuded with Nancy Pelosi for years, but he finally obtained a high position in the party, only to be blindsided and beaten by this young Hispanic newcomer who reached out to voters on a daily basis and produced some amazing TV ads despite her limited funding compared to Crowley. Although Ocasio-Cortez worked very hard for this victory, knocking on doors for over a year, her win represents a huge sea change in the electorate and perhaps reflects the mood of this part of the country. One could perhaps extrapolate that for the rest of the country, but I don't want to get carried away with generalizations, since the US is a huge nation and not every district has the same concerns or voting patterns, obviously. Still, it is an indication of where things are moving. If the Dems have any brains at all, they will investigate how she won and seek to emulate that model for their own campaign strategies before voters hit the booths in November.

She won because Crowley, like the rest of the Democrat establishment takes everything, like the minority vote, for granted. Hell, Crowley didn't even show up for debates, probably because he thought it was a shoe-in. In a congressional district that's mostly minority and immigrants, that was suicide. I hope she's just the beginning.

[Genghis Skahn]

Venezuela was just thrown in so Trmp could claim brown skins where being banned.

I think this is wrong--arguably it has a lot more to do with Venezuela's economic and political turmoil resulting from socialism. It's moreso positioning himself against socialism for the sake of the votes(viable strategy) IMO. I don't think there's any racial motivation behind it.

[Vanoi]

As I pointed out in other thread, Trump is basically is to USA what Tito is for Yugoslavia. US is essentially 11 different nations that are held up by rather vague and self-contradicting ideas and Trump is trying to pull it together before its inevitable collapse.

Lol collapse? America is no where close to collapsing and and is not comparable to Yugoslavia. And even claiming you could break America up into 11 different nation's is at best and really shows a lack of understanding regarding Americans in general.

[Heathen Hammer]

Lol collapse? America is no where close to collapsing and and is not comparable to Yugoslavia. And even claiming you could break America up into 11 different nation's is at best and really shows a lack of understanding regarding Americans in general.

People thought of the same thing in USSR in early 80s.
This article explains the situation pretty well.

[HannibalExMachina]

The progressive democratic socialist candidate Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez just beat the establishment corporate Democrat and incumbent Democratic Caucus Chairman (!!!) Joe Crowley in the Democratic primary for New York's 14th congressional district. Crowley feuded with Nancy Pelosi for years, but he finally obtained a high position in the party, only to be blindsided and beaten by this young Hispanic newcomer who reached out to voters on a daily basis and produced some amazing TV ads despite her limited funding compared to Crowley. Although Ocasio-Cortez worked very hard for this victory, knocking on doors for over a year, her win represents a huge sea change in the electorate and perhaps reflects the mood of this part of the country. One could perhaps extrapolate that for the rest of the country, but I don't want to get carried away with generalizations, since the US is a huge nation and not every district has the same concerns or voting patterns, obviously. Still, it is an indication of where things are moving. If the Dems have any brains at all, they will investigate how she won and seek to emulate that model for their own campaign strategies before voters hit the booths in November.

this is the biggest D'UUUH! the democrats could possible get. what could it be the people want? could it be healthcare, sufficent wages and an end to discrimination? could it be a party that doesnt tell people to kiss the orange fascists boot by being "civil"? GEEZ WHAT COULD IT BE??

[Roma_Victrix]

She won because Crowley, like the rest of the Democrat establishment takes everything, like the minority vote, for granted. Hell, Crowley didn't even show up for debates, probably because he thought it was a shoe-in. In a congressional district that's mostly minority and immigrants, that was suicide. I hope she's just the beginning.

this is the biggest D'UUUH! the democrats could possible get. what could it be the people want? could it be healthcare, sufficent wages and an end to discrimination? could it be a party that doesnt tell people to kiss the orange fascists boot by being "civil"? GEEZ WHAT COULD IT BE??

Joe Crowley also voted against Wall Street regulations and voted in favor of the Iraq War back in 2003. He was definitely a right-leaning Democrat but his funding from giant donors made him virtually unbeatable in that seat. He was a 10-term incumbent! He raised over $3,300,000 for his campaign and Ocasio-Cortez only raised a little over $300,000, and yet she defeated him handily. It's pretty damn clear that the Dems don't just want new blood in the party, they want a different platform, one that is a lot more distinguishable from that of the Republicans.

[Heathen Hammer]

Or that she only won in one district among population that shares her ethnic background, and would at best take Bernie's place as that socialist nutjob supported by smelly hippies and social science grads, but who will still lose primaries to an establishment country-club Democrat that wouldn't scare liberal boomers with wacky economic ideas.

[HannibalExMachina]

Joe Crowley also voted against Wall Street regulations and voted in favor of the Iraq War back in 2003. He was definitely a right-leaning Democrat but his funding from giant donors made him virtually unbeatable in that seat. He was a 10-term incumbent! He raised over $3,300,000 for his campaign and Ocasio-Cortez only raised a little over $300,000, and yet she defeated him handily. It's pretty damn clear that the Dems don't just want new blood in the party, they want a different platform, one that is a lot more distinguishable from that of the Republicans.

precisely. i ran out of reps, ill have to owe you.

[Aexodus]

So the Dems can’t run on jobs, taxes, foreign policy, so now they’re gonna give full blown Democratic Socialism a go. Good luck.