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Thread: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

  1. #301
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I don’t think anyone wanted to see two blocs within the EU face off over something, but here we are.
    ...with a little help from Donald Trump's agent provocateur in Europe, Steve Bannon, and his allies in Europe, Orban and Salvini.
    Bannon, fascinated by Mussolini (quoting, "Mussolini was clearly loved by women. He was a guy’s guy. He has all that virility. He also had amazing fashion sense, right, that whole thing with the uniforms. I’m fascinated by Mussolini), seeks to build a pan-European alliance far-right wing alliance.

    Until now, he failed to convince Austria's far right -the head of the Freedom Party of Austria doesn't want outside influence. Vilimsky says,
    We want to forge alliances in Europe but we do it independently of the US, Russia or anyone else. We want to grow, expand on our own and develop our programme and ideas on our own, but surely not under the leadership of someone active in the United States"
    Bannon will have a hard time to convince Marine Pen. According to Jérôme Rivière, a member of the National Rally party,
    We reject any supra-national entity and are not participating in the creation of anything with Bannon
    "The Movement" is Bannon's supranational entity to fuel European hyper-nationalisms.
    Isn't that funny, a supranational club to tame the hyper-nationalist far-right?
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

  2. #302

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Do you know that Trump had Bannon fired from Breitbart and that Bannon himself has no contacts whatsoever with Trump or his circles anymore since last year's book? He's simply trying to make a political career in Europe, because the one in the US failed. In the EU he still has the political capital to be a boogeyman for the globalist elite. He's not really relevant or any powerful. The Movement is a vague entity lacking funding and clear connections.

  3. #303
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Ex-Warsaw Pact countries largely benefited from electing "populist" nationalist governments who actually fixed a lot of problems, as opposed to "centrist" or "liberal" governments in Western countries that turned major cities into crime-infested war zones. All while EU is basically becoming a neoliberal USSR, it is quite clear that you can't really have a democracy without nationalism.
    i feel indulgent, so lets forget for a moment that "neoliberal USSR" only makes sense if....well, it doesnt.

    also, these nationalist governments are fairly recent, ie in poland, since 2005. poland is an EU member since 2004, and wouldnt you know it:

    The most up-to-date statistics (as of July 2016) show that in 2014 Poland received €17.436 billion from the EU whilst only contributing €3.526 billion.[1] Poland also received nearly €2 billion more in EU funding than any other member state in 2013 (France being second highest).[2] The European Union has made its funding available for infrastructure and transport; agriculture and rural development; health and research; growth and jobs; environment and energy as well as other projects in the European Social Fund. Examples include funding more than 60% of the investment needed to build a section of the A1 motorway between Toruń and Łódź (€1.3 billion), better public transport in Kielce (€54 million) and the Human Brain Project at the Warsaw University of Technology (€54 million).[3]

    but i am sure its all thanks to the amazing government. quite nifty that, being deeply conservative and somewhat eurosceptic (back when they came to power), but reaping all the benefits of liberal EU globalism.

  4. #304

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina View Post
    i feel indulgent, so lets forget for a moment that "neoliberal USSR" only makes sense if....well, it doesnt.

    also, these nationalist governments are fairly recent, ie in poland, since 2005. poland is an EU member since 2004, and wouldnt you know it:

    The most up-to-date statistics (as of July 2016) show that in 2014 Poland received €17.436 billion from the EU whilst only contributing €3.526 billion.[1] Poland also received nearly €2 billion more in EU funding than any other member state in 2013 (France being second highest).[2] The European Union has made its funding available for infrastructure and transport; agriculture and rural development; health and research; growth and jobs; environment and energy as well as other projects in the European Social Fund. Examples include funding more than 60% of the investment needed to build a section of the A1 motorway between Toruń and Łódź (€1.3 billion), better public transport in Kielce (€54 million) and the Human Brain Project at the Warsaw University of Technology (€54 million).[3]

    but i am sure its all thanks to the amazing government. quite nifty that, being deeply conservative and somewhat eurosceptic (back when they came to power), but reaping all the benefits of liberal EU globalism.
    EU is pretty much less-obviously-authoritarian pseudo-liberal version of USSR. I mean EU could have worked as a trade agreement, too bad that it was forever ruined globalist nutjobs like Merkel or Junckers whose deranged pipe dream about giant EU super-state are just as realistic as "world communism".
    Also I actually see it is a good thing that Poland and other Eastern European countries take funding from EU, while not enacting any insane policies that we see in Germany or France.
    By means of ever more effective methods of mind-manipulation, the democracies will change their nature; the quaint old forms -- elections, parliaments, Supreme Courts and all the rest -- will remain. The underlying substance will be a new kind of non-violent totalitarianism. All the traditional names, all the hallowed slogans will remain exactly what they were in the good old days. Democracy and freedom will be the theme of every broadcast and editorial [...]. Meanwhile the ruling oligarchy and its highly trained elite of soldiers, policemen, thought-manufacturers and mind-manipulators will quietly run the show as they see fit.
    -
    Aldous Huxley, Brave New World Revisited, 1958

  5. #305
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    The Movement is a vague entity lacking funding and clear connections.
    Don't underestimate Bannon. Ask Salvini. Steve Bannon vai abrir uma universidade populista perto de Roma ...

    -----------
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    EU is pretty much less-obviously-authoritarian pseudo-liberal version of USSR...Ex-Warsaw Pact countries largely benefited from electing "populist" nationalist governments who actually fixed a lot of problems, as opposed to "centrist" or "liberal" governments in Western countries
    On the contrary, I would say that return to traditional democratic principles (*) developed by the Western constitutionalism,in all the Central/ Eastern European countries (Hungary, Poland etc) faces many obstacles, namely the authoritarian legacy of the ex-USSR.

    (*) Principles of separation of powers, rule of law, political pluralism, guarantees of human rights and freedoms, based on human dignity, and independence of the judiciary. As Orban put it,
    Hungary needs to part with the liberal notion that people are free to do anything that does not violate another person’s freedom
    In fact, Orban is restricting media freedom, waging a cultural and legal war on civil society, and propagating a xenophobic ideology. Orban believes in a "illiberal democracy" and Putin believes in a "sovereign democracy"- both of which refuse to abide by democratic norms. Let's keep in mind that he has the control of all Hungarian major media outlets. And praises Putin, "he rules a great and ancient empire" (sic).
    Let's also keep in mind that in 2014, Orban, from an ideologically point of view, listed Russia among positive examples of successful "illiberal" societies in the world.Orban and Putin are obsessed with the "Christian" values -Putin Hails 'Eternal Christian Values' Amid Orthodox Christmas - RFE/RL and both claim they are under attack of the sinister forces of the West.
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 22, 2018 at 05:04 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

  6. #306

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    I actually hate having to interject personal experience/info here, but I have a contact who has met Bannon and discussed what he wants to do. He doesnt' have the backing of the Mercers anymore, nor a rather clear agenda. He has a good strategical insight and he isn't wrong to say Soros has had an immense impact on the Juncker Commission, de-facto bypassing democracy, but other than that, it's fried air.

    And Marine Le Pen is being martyred by yet another mistake of French globalists, who think that sending her to the psych for a tweet on Isis will somehow fix France's problems. She's a bad politician too. They made an idiot a martyr. Who comes next might not be the same paste.

  7. #307
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    you are right, the only difference between bannon and orban is that one has failed his agenda, the other hasnt. goes to show the US may yet be salvagable. i even have faith in italy, even berlusconi didnt last forever.

  8. #308
    Aexodus's Avatar stahp
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Isn't that funny, a supranational club to tame the hyper-nationalist far-right?
    Quite an oxymoron indeed. However, I hope your implication here isn’t that by rejecting a supranational identity (EU) that makes someone hyper-nationalist.
    Under the patronage of Pontifex Maximus

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post
    I don't understand, clearly if white people simply made better choices to treat others as their equal there wouldn't be all of this justified pushback.

  9. #309

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    On the contrary, I would say that return to traditional democratic principles (*) developed by the Western constitutionalism,in all the Central/ Eastern European countries (Hungary, Poland etc) faces many obstacles, namely the authoritarian legacy of the ex-USSR.

    (*) Principles of separation of powers, rule of law, political pluralism, guarantees of human rights and freedoms, based on human dignity, and independence of the judiciary. As Orban put it,


    In fact, Orban is restricting media freedom, waging a cultural and legal war on civil society, and propagating a xenophobic ideology. Orban believes in a "illiberal democracy" and Putin believes in a "sovereign democracy"- both of which refuse to abide by democratic norms. Let's keep in mind that he has the control of all Hungarian major media outlets. And praises Putin, "he rules a great and ancient empire" (sic).
    Let's also keep in mind that in 2014, Orban, from an ideologically point of view, listed Russia among positive examples of successful "illiberal" societies in the world.Orban and Putin are obsessed with the "Christian" values -Putin Hails 'Eternal Christian Values' Amid Orthodox Christmas - RFE/RL and both claim they are under attack of the sinister forces of the West.
    The issue is that neoliberal oligarchy is the main reason why traditional democratic principles are eroded in Western Europe. With governments bypassing interests of population in favor of interests of billionaire elite and foreign bankers, while imposing draconian laws on their ow population, hence why in places like UK or Germany one can go to jail over a post in social media. Very "democratic".
    Hungary is quite corrupt and still has a lot of problems, but Orban is democratically elected, and we are yet to see any objective evidence that he is restricting media freedom.
    So it is more objective to compare Putin to likes of Merkel or May, rather then Orban.
    By means of ever more effective methods of mind-manipulation, the democracies will change their nature; the quaint old forms -- elections, parliaments, Supreme Courts and all the rest -- will remain. The underlying substance will be a new kind of non-violent totalitarianism. All the traditional names, all the hallowed slogans will remain exactly what they were in the good old days. Democracy and freedom will be the theme of every broadcast and editorial [...]. Meanwhile the ruling oligarchy and its highly trained elite of soldiers, policemen, thought-manufacturers and mind-manipulators will quietly run the show as they see fit.
    -
    Aldous Huxley, Brave New World Revisited, 1958

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