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Thread: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

  1. #141
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by goro View Post
    Left has lost its meaning somehow. I'm not a leftist but as far as i know they promote social equality not social justice. These two are very different. Also from what i've observed in european public politics there is no such thing as alt right here. We don't have white privilege, white supremacy or whatever crap you believe you have in USA. Racism in Europe is mainly derived from anti-islam, nationalism and illegal immigration. A british person being racist towards polish people (example) is not white supremacy.
    Social justice: (n) justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society.

    Hello? Russian revolution? Chinese civil war? Roosevelt's new deal?

    Social justice is almost literally at the core of all left leaning ideologies from the most moderate centrist to the extreme edge (at least in rhetoric if not reality) and has been for nigh on 200 years. To question this pretty much undermines everything else you're saying about it.
    Last edited by antaeus; June 17, 2018 at 06:45 AM. Reason: sigh...
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  2. #142
    Exarch's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    French Revolution. For. The. Greater. Good. Will. Of. The. People.
    .
    THat's what a demoracy is: The will of the people.
    And if the people want to be a society of racists, then so be it. It's not up to a bunch of out of touch soros types to tell them otherwise.

  3. #143
    goro's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Social justice: (n) justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society.

    Hello? Russian revolution? Chinese civil war? Roosevelt's new deal?

    Social justice is almost literally at the core of all left leaning ideologies from the most moderate centrist to the extreme edge (at least in rhetoric if not reality) and has been for nigh on 200 years. To question this pretty much undermines everything else you're saying about it.
    China and Russia are special cases and a bit extreme. I'm referring to leftism in more moderate state like in European parties and similar. I phrased that wrong about social justice. What i want to say is that nowadays social justice is being misinterpretated, misused and ends up undermining equal opportunity.

  4. #144
    Domesticus
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Obama at this point can be considered the defining moment of the rise of identity politics as dominant ideology among ''liberals''.
    Yes. This is the time when the American right wing permanently lost its mind. A black man in the white house was so deeply offensive to them, at a fundamental level that they began to perceive political liberalism as a profound assault on their white christian identity. Identity politics are a zero sum game to the right because they assume that you cannot compromise on identity. It is always a slippery slope and a zero sum game.

    The right also likes to project to the left, blaming their identity based hysterical panic on some nebulous left-wing agenda. The left wing is apparently doing identity politics when they're seeking to protect the rights of minorities: when in reality it's identity politics when the right is trying to deny those rights.

    Economically, they are a convoluted mess.
    Yes. Modern mainstream economics is a synthesis of many schools. You can call it convoluted if you wish, if you want to be wrong about it.

    In theory, they support high taxation and redistribution, in practice once in power they are turbo-corporate shills.
    Another favorite of the right is to assume that their political outgroups are uniform: that diversity of opinion implies hypocrisy, rather than pluralism.

    Liberals have different opinions on economics and different priorities.

    I think if we eliminated American conservative influence in economic matters, the US would end up resembling something like Sweden. It would have high taxes combined with very liberalized markets and a very generous system of social services. There is no contradiction here.

    This is pretty blatant indeed when it comes to mainstream media, all of which are owned by an oligopoly of corporate conglomerates.
    Well, in most places news media still try to maintain impartiality and independence from their underlying corporate ownership. This is different from Murdoch owned establishments which are infamously known for having almost no editorial independence.

    But again, conservatives project the well known degeneration of their media on liberal media. They assume that the rest of the media works like conservative media does: i.e. billionaires funding wing-nut welfare in exchange for slobbering and complete loyalty.


    Due to the fact that most people aren't conditioned enough to put up with that, the main ideology of liberals today is indeed the mix of critical race theory and Marxist feminism.
    This means splitting society into groups and describe them as oppressors or oppressed accordingly.
    Identifying abuses and problems in the society is not the same as creating them. And no, liberal feminists are not marxists generally speaking.

    As such: males are oppressors, females oppressed.
    Well, given the incredible prevalence of such oppression historically and the scarcity of female representation in many important institutions, it's merely honest to acknowledge such problems.

    Whites are oppressors, blacks and Hispanics the oppressed,
    Well the republican party is pretty honest about trying to marginalize them politically.

    Asians sort of ignored because they do too well to be considered oppressed.
    Asians generally came from middle class families, so they were better equipped to thrive in a free society compared to peasants.

    They also came in with chain migration, something which the right resents intensely, but helps with integration immensely. Blacks were obviously not: and many Latinos sort of rushed across the border after Reagan began to fortify it, creating a somewhat dislocated population of latino migrants.

    Ironically it's generally liberals discriminating against them. Then you have intersectionality mixing race, gender, sexual orientation categories in the oppression Olympics, which sees at the top of the evil heterosexual white men.
    Yawn.


    That's ''liberalism'' today. I think it successfully took the worst of capitalism, socialistm and nazism and put them together in this chimera that rules the West.
    What are you even talking about?

    WaPo has significantly got worse since Trump won. They were never this bad. I rank it on the level of Infowars to the right. Same goes for CNN. NYT by comparison isn't that bad as long as you ignore the articles about Russia or the cultural sections.
    Yeah. Mmm. Like there are has been like 30 or so indictments in the Mueller investigation. Manaford is in prison.

    By contrast there were zero indictments in the 5 years of various investigations on Hillary.

    Also, why does Trump keep fawning over dictators like Putin and rocketman?

    It's because Trump is ideologically aligned with these people. Do you really think it's a co-incidence that he never goes through the standard rituals of praising democratic norms --- while at the same time "totes jokingly" suggests that his people should stand up for him like they would for a dictator?


    It's simply taking a stand against ideological fanaticism, restriction of freedoms, cultural iconoclasm and complete nonsense. These things need to be fought. This is not a disagreement on how high your tax rate should be. It's people telling you that your right should be taken because you are privileged based on your racial belonging, your culture be destroyed because it's oppressive (despite the unquestionable achievement in terms of human progress).
    What right have you been deprived of by Obama?

    What rights are talking about?

    This is a zero sum game to you because its moral hysteria -- moral panic. Conservatives are afraid and they revel in being made angry by something. This is why they scour the youtube for red-haired feminists even though they've probably never met one in their lives.

    f allowed to spread, like we have for the past two decades, then human history is pretty clear where they end up. There are multiple examples of this ideological line of thought ending always the same way. Was Mao evil? Yes. Stalin? Too. Why would I allow little Mao or little Stalin to try their thing again in my country? So yes, they are evil and they must be called out as such.
    Yes. Mao and Stalin. Totally.

    This is just panic. Sad moral panic.
    Last edited by Princeps; June 17, 2018 at 03:48 PM.

  5. #145

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post

    Well, in most places news media still try to maintain impartiality and independence from their underlying corporate ownership. This is different from Murdoch owned establishments which are infamously known for having almost no editorial independence.

    But again, conservatives project the well known degeneration of their media on liberal media.
    https://www.hks.harvard.edu/publicat...first-100-days

    Even Harvard admits that the coverage of Trump by mainstream media has been extremely biased. The fact that you defend it as impartial means that your analysis itself is not impartial, but sheerly and willingfully dishonest. This is why I won't even bother addressing much of the garbage in the rest of your post.

    (The US ruled by Democrats would be Sweden? Really? Just look at California's extreme inequality, levels of education and the rest, ridiculous fairytale. Even Sweden is going to anyway, thanks to the cuckolds that run it. Spoiler, you'd end up like Venezuela or the Soviet Union; realistically, once you have exterminated white males, Asian males are probably next on the menu and then your society falls apart because you've run out of the most productive ethnic groups).


    Quote Originally Posted by Princeps View Post
    This is just panic. Sad moral panic.
    Why panic? According to the narrative of the lying liberal media the populist wave ended with Macron. As things are going right now, the new leader of the free world, Angela Merkel, might receive a well deserved kick in the ass for her open borders immigration policy within the week.

    Who's panicking? The ones who are resorting to conspiracy theories about Russia to overthrow elected governemts, oveturn referenda, or block the nomination of ministers who beg to disagree with the economic insanity we have been shown down our throats for the past 3 decades. Your side is resorting to restricting individual freedoms, preventing people from voting or ignoring contrary votes to preserve its survival. They showed their true face, they are tyrants; and the more it's being pointed out the more they radicalize their already extremist positions, which indeed helps pissing people off even further. It's ing hilarious seeing Hollywood actors calling for a civil war dude. Seriously. It's hilarious seeing how delusional and out of touch these people are. They have everything to lose and they are instigating the anger of the masses. I don't think you guys realize how close we are to the breaking point.

    Do you really want to abolish democracy unless people agree with you? Bring it. No kind of fraud discipline like intersectionality can stop the course of history.

  6. #146

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Not sure why you think it's a bad thing. It was fairly accurate. The difference is, nobody is witch hunting you. The reason why the Inquisition and the Red Scare are brought up as a bad thing is because people's beliefs were used as justification for punishment. Accusing somebody of being an alt-right is simply accusing them of embracing certain ideas. The accusation is usually fairly accurate by the way, so I'm not sure what the issue here is. I would be a leftist by today's standards and accusations of me being a "vile leftist" is quite accurate I suppose.
    Not sure I understood your posts, you think labelling people as "Heretics" like the Inquisiton did is a good thing?

    And contrary to narrative, if you study Catholic history, you will see there is a gigantic lag before persecution and accusation of heresy. It's not accuse-execute as the anti-catholic propaganda says.

    Some groups took 100-200 years after being labelled as heretic before the public killings even gave a hint of beginning.

    So the fact that modern heretics aren't "persecuted" doesn't say much. Mainly when President of US appeals to said "heretic" group, it may rise the idea that the apparent lack of persecution is due to Fear of the Leviathan, now on the "heretic" side, rather than compassion.

    Keeping with the analogy, would be like Pope appealing to the "heretics", and the puritans saying they don't persecute the "heretics" out of compassion, rather than out of fear of Papacy reprisal for insoburdination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    They showed their true face, they are tyrants; and the more it's being pointed out the more they radicalize their already extremist positions, which indeed helps pissing people off even further. It's ing hilarious seeing Hollywood actors calling for a civil war dude. Seriously. It's hilarious seeing how delusional and out of touch these people are. They have everything to lose and they are instigating the anger of the masses. I don't think you guys realize how close we are to the breaking point.

    Do you really want to abolish democracy unless people agree with you? Bring it. No kind of fraud discipline like intersectionality can stop the course of history.
    Seriously calm down. What's happening is a case of "Dogs bark but the Caravan passes by", using an arab-portuguese aphorism.

    Let them complain. This pro-patriotism side already won the elections, what else do you want?

    Don't let their "vodoo emotional attack" to disturb you and your reasoning, be like water, and they will exaust themselves to defeat point on their own, no need to interfere.
    Last edited by fkizz; June 17, 2018 at 04:35 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  7. #147
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by goro View Post
    China and Russia are special cases and a bit extreme. I'm referring to leftism in more moderate state like in European parties and similar. I phrased that wrong about social justice. What i want to say is that nowadays social justice is being misinterpretated, misused and ends up undermining equal opportunity.
    I know you're referring to moderate left leaning European politics. I just don't understand the narrative you're writing. How is social justice being misinterpreted?



    And @Basil

    I'm interested in you answering Princeps' question "What right have you been deprived of by Obama?"

    Be specific.
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  8. #148

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post


    Seriously calm down. What's happening is a case of "Dogs bark but the Caravan passes by", using an arab-portuguese aphorism.

    Let them complain. This pro-patriotism side already won the elections, what else do you want?

    Don't let their "vodoo emotional attack" to disturb you and your reasoning, be like water, and they will exaust themselves to defeat point on their own, no need to interfere.
    To be fair in Portugal you've been lucky enough they allowed your government to do whatever they wanted because there were bigger issues elsewhere. You also don't get the immigration waves the rest of Europe get. The day you start getting those, you'll see what I mean. You won't be allowed to vote your way out of it, media control and propaganda will be incessant, collective criminalization will become the norm, just like Russia-scapegoating.

    Then when they'll start suggesting that people who reject multiculturalism should get ''medical treatment'', you'll know they have gone full Orwell/Huxley and democracy has gone to hell. Don't underestimate the psychopathy of these people. The EU might ban memes next because they can't control them. See how bad it already is.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; June 17, 2018 at 04:45 PM.

  9. #149

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    To be fair in Portugal you've been lucky enough they allowed your government to do whatever they wanted because there were bigger issues elsewhere. You also don't get the immigration waves the rest of Europe get. The day you start getting those, you'll see what I mean. You won't be allowed to vote your way out of it, media control and propaganda will be incessant, collective criminalization will become the norm, just like Russia-scapegoating.
    The reason is, we got so heavily hit by 2011 bailout, we are still suffering from it.
    We got plenty of immigrants and refugees, but they simply fled elsewhere richer. Our 2011 bailout served as scorched earth policy.

    Even the groups who gave Yazidis cushy expensive aparments, didn't manage to keep the yazidis here. They simply go away, and use our country as a passage ground.
    There was a refugee giving warning that Portugal is not good for immigrants, not because of racism, but because of lack of money opportunities, long badly paid jobs, and negative mindset of being obsessed on Financial Crisis, and that north europe offers much better.

    We had to suffer on the Cross for some years to reach this point. The bailout wasn't easy, this scorched earth policy took a rise on domestic violence, school droupouts, suicide, abortions, depressions and unemployment.

    At least now we aren't geopolitically affected. We lack honey to atract the bees even if we wanted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Then when they'll start suggesting that people who reject multiculturalism should get ''medical treatment'', you'll know they have gone full Orwell/Huxley and democracy has gone to hell. Don't underestimate the psychopathy of these people. The EU might ban memes next because they can't control them. See how bad it already is.
    Focus on keeping winning elections. The pro-patriot side is winning, focus on doing more of that. Not much of a choice. Don't let barking dogs convince you that the Caravan isn't passing by, it is, the barking can't change it, the anti-patriots never took so much political defeats in a row.

    Every advantage comes at a high price, the same wasn't different for Portugal, simply we suffered most of our share in 2010-2016, so now since it is more or less over it gives the appearance of always having been serene, that is not the case.
    Last edited by fkizz; June 17, 2018 at 04:54 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  10. #150
    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Praetorio
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Portugal "suffered on the cross" by having a bailout given to it rather than just being allowed to deal with its own mess and slide into depression.

    Okay mate. Keep telling yourself everybody else is to blame for everything.

  11. #151

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    The reason is, we got so heavily hit by 2011 bailout, we are still suffering from it.
    We got plenty of immigrants and refugees, but they simply fled elsewhere richer. Our 2011 bailout served as scorched earth policy.

    Even the groups who gave Yazidis cushy expensive aparments, didn't manage to keep the yazidis here. They simply go away, and use our country as a passage ground.
    There was a refugee giving warning that Portugal is not good for immigrants, not because of racism, but because of lack of money opportunities, long badly paid jobs, and negative mindset of being obsessed on Financial Crisis, and that north europe offers much better.

    We had to suffer on the Cross for some years to reach this point. The bailout wasn't easy, this scorched earth policy took a rise on domestic violence, school droupouts, suicide, abortions, depressions and unemployment.
    You are lucky because anyone you got was through relocation schemes, which are largely uneffective, just like anything suggested by Soros. And yes, a good portion already left. Strange because Portugal has a good climate, unemployment is decreasing. Nonetheless it's one evidence that ultimately many of what are passed as refugees are economic migrants, meaning our institutions are using ''refugees'' to justify mass migration, because it's no longer politically acceptable, but they are manipulating people into compassion to accept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    At least now we aren't geopolitically affected. We lack honey to atract the bees even if we wanted.

    Focus on keeping winning elections. The pro-patriot side is winning, focus on doing more of that. Not much of a choice. Don't let barking dogs convince you that the Caravan isn't passing by, it is, the barking can't change it, the anti-patriots never took so much political defeats in a row.

    Every advantage comes at a high price, the same wasn't different for Portugal, simply we suffered most of our share in 2010-2016, so now since it is more or less over it gives the appearance of always having been serene, that is not the case.
    It's becoming increasingly evident that winning elections and/or referenda isn't enough. That's why I lost respect for this people. If they lose elections they use NGOs or international organizations to prevent you from changing the route to suicide. A system that is anyway bankrupt and has survived one more decade by transferring wealth upwards via QE and bailouts. The article I posted above in response to Spartan is a great read to summarize my grievances that I could have wrote it myself, except the touch of Britishness.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Portugal "suffered on the cross" by having a bailout given to it rather than just being allowed to deal with its own mess and slide into depression.

    Okay mate. Keep telling yourself everybody else is to blame for everything.
    Says that one who sees Russian bots around every corner. Hilarious.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; Yesterday at 04:29 PM.

  12. #152

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    It's becoming increasingly evident that winning elections and/or referenda isn't enough. That's why I lost respect for this people. If they lose elections they use NGOs or international organizations to prevent you from changing the route to suicide. A system that is anyway bankrupt and has survived one more decade by transferring wealth upwards via QE and bailouts.
    Yep there's plenty of non-political fronts. They have plenty of backups in case of lost of political control. The good news is, they are already using the backups. After that, the only backups avaliable can only save the upper echelons, and you know how hierarchy typically disputes go.

    In essence, they have activate the self-destruction mechanisms of nations and borders, convinced that in the ashes you can rebuild a world without borders or ethnicity to divide people...

    All this destruction for the a #YOLO attempt at utopia, yet another group in history thinking their own version of Babel Tower can't colapse. History feels repetive as heck.
    The good news is the culture war is having victories for the pro-patriot side unheard of since the 60s and 70s.

    As for the NGOs, there are plenty of solutions.. but you have to read between the lines. You can't have an out in the open aproach on that. It's a more subtle world. Depends on what kind of players end up empathizing with your cause.

    For international organizations... well we had our country suffering on the cross between 2011-2016 because of them, that's the hardest part.

    Either way don't get demoralized and don't lose temper.

    Dogs bark, but Caravan passes by, as the Arabs say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    The article I posted above in responso to Spartan is a great read to summarize my grievances that I could have wrote it myself, except the touch of Britishness.
    Will read tomorrow or later.
    Last edited by fkizz; Yesterday at 04:10 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  13. #153
    NosPortatArma's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    It will be great when the Sweden Democrats becomes the biggest party in the riksdag in september. I wonder if the other parties will continue to ignore this "undemocratic" which has the support of 26%. It is really orwellian.
    Make Sweden Lagom Again!

  14. #154

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America



    Pretty good conversation on Sweden between a Jew and a reformed lefist. I have to read his book eventually.

    I'm not even sure what's worse, the media that have a massive representation of the otherwise insigifnicant feminazi party F! or the Swedish academia committing intellectual suicide.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; Yesterday at 06:38 PM.

  15. #155

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Actually young people are moving away from the left in big way too. Generatio Z and all that.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7557351.html
    Hmm... 'while the proportion saying “government ought to spend more on benefits” fell from 55 per cent in 1987 to 27 per cent in 2009, the study says.' This ignores the obvious fact that the first one is a suggestion that right-wing Margaret Thatcher should spend more on benefits in a period of economic growth, the second a suggestion that Labour's Gordon Brown should spend more on benefits just as the economy starts to nose dive. The comparison is ridiculous.
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