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Thread: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

  1. #281

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    To defeat Nazis you flooded the country with millions of soldiers. Only the western allies had 5 million soldiers. And Germany was a nation of how many? 80 million? Muslims on the other hand are 1.7 billion. So either you raise 80 million soldiers and send them to muslim lands or you accept defeat
    That's if you are a total moron who believes "islam" is the enemy.

    I'm talking about specific countries and orgnisations. Such as the failed invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and the total fubar that was the war against isis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Ah integration then. I agree, let’s decrease the amount of migrants so we can effectivley integrate a lesser number.

    Why would they change their attitudes when they are living among other conservative Muslims, as opposed to well, British people. I’m talking about preventing enclaves, which will ‘dialogue’ all on it’s own.

    It’s funny though how you would rather just let them all in, and then plead with them to stop being homophobic after the fact.
    How can we expect the muslims to drop out-dated religious based discrimination when we can't even get the northern irish to do it?
    Last edited by Katsumoto de Voltaire; July 06, 2018 at 06:53 PM. Reason: merged posts

  2. #282
    Papay's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    That's if you are a total moron who believes "islam" is the enemy.

    I'm talking about specific countries and orgnisations. Such as the failed invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and the total fubar that was the war against isis.
    You still cannot win. Lets say you flooded Afghanistan with 500.000 soldiers and started using terrorism to subdue locals. What would be the end game? You would be accused(correctly)for war crimes, the locals would hate you and even if you managed to limit the influence of the insurgency, on the long run they would depose your regime

  3. #283
    Aexodus's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    How can we expect the muslims to drop out-dated religious based discrimination when we can't even get the northern irish to do it?
    If there were millions of Free Presbyterians entering Europe from the Antrim Bible belt, it would cause some problems too. Except this time you wouldn’t be called racist for pointing out how bringing in people who oppose homosexuality, and aren’t allowed to even walk on the same side or look at a Catholic Church, or enter any kind of religious centre other than their own.

    I assume that’s who you meant when you referred to the ‘Northern Irish’

    He that will not reason is a bigot, He that cannot reason is a fool, He that dares not reason is a slave.

  4. #284

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    If there were millions of Free Presbyterians entering Europe from the Antrim Bible belt, it would cause some problems too. Except this time you wouldn’t be called racist for pointing out how bringing in people who oppose homosexuality, and aren’t allowed to even walk on the same side or look at a Catholic Church, or enter any kind of religious centre other than their own.

    I assume that’s who you meant when you referred to the ‘Northern Irish’
    Pretty much, I made the mistake of debating with a presbyterian at work once. I found myself longing for the sweet embrace of a pitbull round my throat, pobably would of been a more humane fate.

  5. #285
    Aexodus's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    There’s a world of difference between opposing gay marriage, and opposing the legality of homosexuality itself. And guess who many free presbyterians have something in common on that front...

    He that will not reason is a bigot, He that cannot reason is a fool, He that dares not reason is a slave.

  6. #286

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    There’s a world of difference between opposing gay marriage, and opposing the legality of homosexuality itself. And guess who many free presbyterians have something in common on that front...
    Funnily enough I oppose gay marriage to a certain extent. Despite my views on the christian and islamic faiths I respect their right to hold beliefs I do not agree with, it goes down to freedom of religion. Christians and muslims have the right to be anti-gay bigots within their places of worship if that's their thing. Just as I have the right to express my views on the texts of these religions.

    Civil partnership should be opened to all couples straight or gay and have all the same rights and benefits, leaving "marriage" as a religious union and up to the churches, synagogues, msoques and temples to decide who they want to offer that option to in respect of thier faith.

  7. #287

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    I agree with this sentiment towards marriage also. I think sentiments like this are partly in whole "LGBT views have gone too far" mindset. I guess this is also a "populist" perspective too.

  8. #288

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Luxembourg, for example, is a country made by immigrants, country's population now comprises more than 46% non-Luxembourg nationals.Immigrants from the European Union (EU) still make up the lion's share of Luxembourg's foreign population and account for 85% of the 290,000 or so foreigners, the majority being Portuguese, French or Italian. Luxembourgers are still the overall majority (52%).
    And what's the problem, really?
    Luxembourg’s large foreign-born population is a pillar of the country's prosperity; Luxembourg’s economy is among the strongest inthe EU.
    Yes because its similar western european culture people who integrate well without any big obstacles or fundamental differences between the native population. Similarly finns integrated well into swedish society in 70s when they lived in those same neighborhoods that are now notorious no-go-zones in Sweden when inhabitated by muslims with very different culture instead. Still people blame the urban planning itself as the issue, rather than the people and huge cultural gap between them and rest of the society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The spiritual leader of 15 million Ismaili Muslims spread throughout the world comes with 45,000 dirty Muslims! We are all going to die!
    There are better sects within Islam too, but the biggest one is still Sunni islam with its salafists, political islam and anti-western tendencies. We have had since 1870s tatar muslims in Finland who have integrated greatly and do not make big fuss about their religion or cause any trouble.

    The Tatars are fully integrated into Finnish society and they are actively engaged in Finnish economic and cultural life in a wide array of professions. At the same time, they have succeeded in maintaining a distinct identity and in keeping the Tatar language alive by using it in family and private circles and also in their cultural organisations. Since 1935, the Tatar Cultural Society (Tatar: Finlandiya Türkleri Birligi) has organised principally Tatar-language cultural events in the form of plays, folk music, folk dancing and poetry recitals. It is remarkable that the small group of Finnish Tatars has managed to preserve proficiency in the Tatar language for as long as five generations. The publishing activity of the Tatars was once extensive but has now ceased. Past publications include religious texts, poetry, plays, novels as well as periodicals, the earliest from 1925.
    They don't stick out like sore thumb in criminal statistics, they don't demand sharia law, they don' portray themselves as victims of racism either, as there is minimal racism towards them as they are moderate sensible well integrated muslims. If all the muslim immigrants coming here recently were more like them, there wouldn't be these big issues currently in Europe related to these matters and such big boom for anti-immigration right-wing parties all across Europe.

    Similarily sufism seems like interesting islamic sect, which id rather lot more receive here than salafists for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Well there is nothing wrong with the Muslim architecture and culture,


    Okay, that is nice piece of architecture. But saying there is nothing wrong with islamic culture in same breath... so hanging gays, stoning adulterers, chopping off hands from thieves, oppression of women, political islam, salafism, terrorist strikes with shouts of "Allahu Ackbar", nothing wrong with that? There is A LOT of things that are wrong in islamic culture and need to go through reform and become more secularised, for it to become compatible with modern western humane values and societies. We should actively pressure them to become more secularised, rather than give in to their every demand to keep their oppressive ways, for example socially pressuring women to wear burqas and similar nonsense.

    It's matter of how secular vs authoritarian/dogmatic/conservative the origin country and culture is in regards to islam that matters a lot. Our finnish tatars, or turkish or kurdish pizza workers are fairly far on the secularisation path and integrate pretty well without islam causing that much issues. But the less secular people from islamic countries you get, more it becomes barrier and trouble causing element making integration that much more difficult if not nearly impossible. So as with all things in life, its not just some black&white "nothing wrong with muslim culture" or "muslims destroy europe deport all of em now" kind of deal, but lots of shades of grey instead.

  9. #289

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziltoid View Post
    Okay, that is nice piece of architecture. But saying there is nothing wrong with islamic culture in same breath... so hanging gays, stoning adulterers, chopping off hands from thieves, oppression of women, political islam, salafism, terrorist strikes with shouts of "Allahu Ackbar", nothing wrong with that? There is A LOT of things that are wrong in islamic culture and need to go through reform and become more secularised, for it to become compatible with modern western humane values and societies. We should actively pressure them to become more secularised, rather than give in to their every demand to keep their oppressive ways, for example socially pressuring women to wear burqas and similar nonsense.

    It's matter of how secular vs authoritarian/dogmatic/conservative the origin country and culture is in regards to islam that matters a lot. Our finnish tatars, or turkish or kurdish pizza workers are fairly far on the secularisation path and integrate pretty well without islam causing that much issues. But the less secular people from islamic countries you get, more it becomes barrier and trouble causing element making integration that much more difficult if not nearly impossible. So as with all things in life, its not just some black&white "nothing wrong with muslim culture" or "muslims destroy europe deport all of em now" kind of deal, but lots of shades of grey instead.
    In the case of the Nizari Isma'ilis, to which Ludicus was referring, there isn't much cause for concern due to the fact that their theology is particularly adaptable.

    For sake of expediency, I'll just reference the Wiki page:

    With respect to their spiritual nature, the Imams are considered living manifestations of the divine word as well as intermediaries (wasilah in Qur'an 5:35) between God and the Ummah. Based on this belief, the Nizari Ismaili concept of Imamate differs from that of the Twelver's concept in that the Nizari Imams possess the authority to interpret the Quran according to the times and change or even abrogate any aspect of "The Way/The Path" (Sharia) of Islam.

    The 49th and presently living Nizari Imam is Prince Shah Karim Al Hussaini Aga Khan (IV).[3][4][5][6]
    Currently the man believed to be the intermediary between God and their community happens to be the grandson of a British baron who was a second-lieutenant in the Scots Guards during the Boer War.

    It goes on...

    The changing interpretations of the Quran by the Nizari Ismaili Imams to adapt to changing times creates tension between the Nizari Ismaili Imams and the Orthodox Ulema (Islamic scholars). The two most recent Nizari Ismaili Imams titled Aga Khan III and Aga Khan IV have replaced the obligation to perform the daily prayers from five times a day to three times a day by following the Quranic injunction rather than following the Prophet's custom (hadith and sunnah), in order to ease the religious pressures on the Muslim in the modern world. For example, they have dispensed with the veil for women and replaced it with dressing according to common decency in the country of one's residence.
    In light of modern adaptations, the biggest threat to security or stability such a group is likely to pose in Europe would come from the violent hostility Islamist groups hold toward them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  10. #290

    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I would say that in the new dark Age of Intolerance, "Convivencia" isn't a bad idea.
    Well we're just applying what we did in 1940s. Nothing wrong with that mindset.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  11. #291
    Vanoi's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Will the West go ‘Pop’? Populism sweeps Europe and America

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/trade-war...150323935.html

    Trade wars have their consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    Those who protect the right of terrorists to have Free Speech enable the bombings of innocents.

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