Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: 13 Reasons Why

  1. #1
    paleologos's Avatar Moderator
    Artifex Content Staff

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Variable
    Posts
    5,773

    Default 13 Reasons Why

    I started watching the first episode and I am not impressed.
    Has anyone seen this show?
    Can someone tell me what the enjoyable parts of it are going to be like (if any)?

  2. #2

    Default Re: 13 Reasons Why

    I found it a bit boring tbh and lost track of it eventually.

  3. #3

    Default Re: 13 Reasons Why

    Meh, the book are better. I know, that's cliché, but the show is really bad and handles the entire core theme of the book wrong, the characters are bland and stereotypical, etc. If you didn't like the first ep, you won't like the rest.
    "Never Knows Best"
    The Saga of Haraldr Yngling and the Nordmanna - A M2TW Last Kingdom AAR
    Nous Pauvre Couillons du Front - A NTW The Great War Mod AAR

  4. #4
    paleologos's Avatar Moderator
    Artifex Content Staff

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Variable
    Posts
    5,773

    Default Re: 13 Reasons Why

    I stopped watching at episode 1 of season 1.
    Did anyone get the impression that the premise of the story was the narcissism (?) of a little drama queen?
    Here's my take:
    If she could be in such a state of mind as to be able to make that recording and devise such a sophisticated plan to guilt trip those who "did her wrong", then her suicide was not an act of despair.
    It was rather an act of spite.
    When it became apparent to me that this was the premise of the show, I lost interest.

  5. #5
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    12,539

    Default Re: 13 Reasons Why

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    I stopped watching at episode 1 of season 1.
    Did anyone get the impression that the premise of the story was the narcissism (?) of a little drama queen?
    Here's my take:
    If she could be in such a state of mind as to be able to make that recording and devise such a sophisticated plan to guilt trip those who "did her wrong",
    It's a plot device ffs, the role of the tapes is simply to allow the watcher to slowly build up a picture of what went wrong in her life and how the different people in her life behaved towards her.

    then her suicide was not an act of despair.
    It was rather an act of spite.
    How can taking your own life EVER not be an act of despair?

    When it became apparent to me that this was the premise of the show, I lost interest.
    It's very easy to criticise people, but at the end of the day teenagers are children and their brain structures are not fully developed. You can't judge them by the standards of adults. I think the message of the show has gone right over your head - we all have our childish and selfish thoughts, but the consequences of abandoning ourselves to them are severe. In the end it's not Hannah's behaviour which is the problem, the problem is the lack of compassion shown by others. No, Hannah is not perfect, yes she is illogical and spiteful and hypersensitive at times. So are we all. But the fact is people need to understand that anyone could be in Hannah's position, and at the end of the day Hannah only treats other people in the same way they treat her. If people had some empathy for Hannah and treated her better she wouldn't have committed suicide.

    There's a big gulf in society when it comes to suicidality. Some understand it for what it is, a disease which is triggered by a mixture of internal and external factors. Others view it as a decision, and thus wrongly interpret it as being somehow a cry for attention or an act of selfishness. This is because they can't compute that somebody could commit an act of violence that wasn't intended to help themselves in some way. But of course suicide is by its nature the complete loss of the survival instinct, so there's no question of helping yourself, the time for helping yourself is over. And so it falls to the rest of us to help people who can't help themselves, just as with any other major social problem. Teen suicide is arguably the biggest single cause of death for teenagers in the US, it's the most severe health problem affecting young people and it's getting steadily worse - there's been a big rise in the last 8 years here in the UK and I guess the US is similar.
    Last edited by Copperknickers II; August 14, 2018 at 11:10 AM.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  6. #6
    paleologos's Avatar Moderator
    Artifex Content Staff

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Variable
    Posts
    5,773

    Default Re: 13 Reasons Why

    That is an opinion and I can see and acknowledge the merit in the points it makes.
    I did not pull mine out of the top of my head, though.



    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    It's a plot device ffs..
    I know. I can't help remarking I found it a rather weak one. Did she start the equivalent of an Arab Spring in her town?
    Read about the suicide of Mohamed Bouazizi and compare her troubles with his for the sake of proportionality - or in this case a lack of it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    How can taking your own life EVER not be an act of despair?
    Before linking NPD traits and suicidality I did a quick google research on whether there were any links: NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER AND SUICIDE (It's from a serious publication).
    Specifically:
    It has been suggested that suicidal behavior in individuals with NPD can be a) an attempt to increase self-esteem via a sense of mastery; b) an attempt to defend themselves against expected narcissistic threats;
    c) a revengeful action against narcissistic damage; d) a false assumption of indestructibility (immortality?); and e) desire to abolish an imperfect self (Ronningstam & Maltsberger 1998).
    The impression I got from the show is that it was not about suicide, rather about donning the mantle of righteous indignation in relation to suicide, which does require an exaggerated sense of self righteousness IMO.



    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    It's very easy to criticize people, but at the end of the day teenagers are children and their brain structures are not fully developed. You can't judge them by the standards of adults.
    Of course not but children in westernized societies are not burdened with the obligations of adults to begin with.



    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    I think the message of the show has gone right over your head - ...
    This is entirely possible, that's why I speak of personal impressions and word my opinions in ways that acknowledge my subjectivity, or at least that's what I try for.



    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    ... - we all have our childish and selfish thoughts, but the consequences of abandoning ourselves to them are severe.
    I know, I know!



    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    In the end it's not Hannah's behavior which is the problem, the problem is the lack of compassion shown by others. No, Hannah is not perfect, yes she is illogical and spiteful and hypersensitive at times. So are we all. But the fact is people need to understand that anyone could be in Hannah's position, and at the end of the day Hannah only treats other people in the same way they treat her. If people had some empathy for Hannah and treated her better she wouldn't have committed suicide.
    That's one way to put it.
    What is difficult for me to accept is that this was a society that selectively demonstrated an empathy deficit to one, or a few persons.
    I would imagine that a society would be equally empathic or coarse/callous towards the majority of people.
    It's not like Hannah was the only kid of color in a backwoods Alabaman high school.
    My point is that everyone actually is in Hannah's position all the time, yet only a few kill themselves because they feel that they are somehow given less compassion that they are "owed".
    The opportunity was missed to make the point: "Life is hard, society is unfair, people are callous and selfish and self centered and you are not weaker than others, so grow some skin and soldier on".



    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    ...
    But of course suicide is by its nature the complete loss of the survival instinct, so there's no question of helping yourself, the time for helping yourself is over.
    ...
    She did give herself the time to make a tape (several copies I presume) with which to guilt trip others.
    She was of clear mind enough to devise a plan and organize the distribution of the tape.
    She was resourceful enough to come up with the wherewithal to carry out her plan and right up to the last moment she was in control of it.
    That's what makes it a weak premise for a show.



    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    Teen suicide is arguably the biggest single cause of death for teenagers in the US, it's the most severe health problem affecting young people and it's getting steadily worse - there's been a big rise in the last 8 years here in the UK and I guess the US is similar.
    I have no doubt about that.
    In the thick of it all it does not help to give all those teens a show aggrandizing the message:
    Life sucks, you people suck, I can't deal with your crap anymore, LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!!
    sign: the dead chick.
    Last edited by paleologos; August 14, 2018 at 04:51 PM.

  7. #7
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    12,539

    Default Re: 13 Reasons Why

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post

    I know. I can't help remarking I found it a rather weak one. Did she start the equivalent of an Arab Spring in her town?
    Read about the suicide of Mohamed Bouazizi and compare her troubles with his for the sake of proportionality - or in this case a lack of it.
    Suicidality is like many psychiatric problems, a social problem. It's well acknowledged that somebody who goes through a divorce for example, can feel worse than someone who never married in the first place. In real terms, the person who never married is worse off, but the person who has built a life and invested their emotion in someone else and then sees that life fall apart and that emotional investment betrayed, feels worse off because of the comparative drop in their circumstances. This in itself is an important coping mechanism and a feature of the human brain - people can get used to the most extreme circumstances, their real problems start when their circumstances change for the worse as they have to massively alter their coping stratgegy to deal with something they've never dealt with before. This is what makes it seem impossible for one person to cope with problems another person copes with very easily - the reality is that even someone who has gone through terrible hardship might be awful at dealing with comparitively small problems, if the shift from the old problems to the new problems is sufficiently big. For instance you often see immigrants from third world countries and warzones committing suicide, not in their home countries, but in the developed countries they move to, due to isolation and racism and going from being a respected middle class person to being a working class outcast. They are safer and materially better off in the latter position than the former, but they cope worse.

    The impression I got from the show is that it was not about suicide, rather about donning the mantle of righteous indignation in relation to suicide, which does require an exaggerated sense of self righteousness IMO.
    I think that's totally the wrong reading. Suicide is a mental illness, getting into a train of thought whereby you feel you have to kill yourself, even to show people that they have treated you badly, is part of that illness. Those thoughts are not logical or conducive to good mental health. Even if Hannah does intend to 'punish' other people, she saves the worst punishment for herself. A punishment which shows that she feels the situation is not actually the fault of those around her, but ultimately her fault. But she is intelligent enough to understand that it didn't have to be that way.

    What is difficult for me to accept is that this was a society that selectively demonstrated an empathy deficit to one, or a few persons.
    I would imagine that a society would be equally empathic or coarse/callous towards the majority of people.
    It's not like Hannah was the only kid of color in a backwoods Alabaman high school.
    The things that happened to Hannah include betrayal, public humiliation, ostracisation and bullying (things which happen to a lot of people, but not most), as well as being outed as homosexual in a small conservative town, being partly responsible for death by manslaughter of one of her friends, and finally being raped and then ignored and blamed for bringing it on herself when she reports it (any one of which routinely lead to self-harm and suicidal thoughts). Now maybe where you come from those things are all just rites of passage. But here in the real world, I don't think there are many people who could emerge from that without serious psychiatric problems.

    My point is that everyone actually is in Hannah's position all the time, yet only a few kill themselves because they feel that they are somehow given less compassion that they are "owed".
    Where exactly do you live? South Sudan? Or maybe you just didn't watch far enough into the show to see the worst things that happened.

    The opportunity was missed to make the point: "Life is hard, society is unfair, people are callous and selfish and self centered and you are not weaker than others, so grow some skin and soldier on".
    That attitude simply doesn't fly, suicidality is a mental illness and it's no more possible to survive it by 'growing some skin and soldiering on' than it is to survive cancer by doing the same. This is the opinion of all credible psychiatric specialists.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  8. #8

    Default Re: 13 Reasons Why

    It is an awful show which ultimately fetishizes suicide. Some of the acting is redemptive but ultimately the writing is absolutely awful and irresponsible. Netflix should scrap it and bring back their Mongol show, which actually had a lot of interesting dynamics.

    This show is just a crappy high school drama which has the added detriment of making those who commit suicide into heroes.


  9. #9

    Default Re: 13 Reasons Why

    Mongol show? You mean Marco Polo? Yeah it was an awesome with some great acting. Far better than this crap. Though in comparison Marco Polo is too budgety in comparison.

  10. #10

    Default Re: 13 Reasons Why

    I agree, the book is much better! I had higher expectations!

  11. #11
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    12,539

    Default Re: 13 Reasons Why

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    It is an awful show which ultimately fetishizes suicide.
    There's only one thing worse than fetishizing suicide, and that's brushing it under the carpet and hoping it will go away of its own accord. I think the positives far outweigh the negatives when it comes to getting the topic out in the public discourse and starting a conversation. Or at least they would do, if people didn't insist on having regressive attitudes. It seems to me most people who complain about 'fetishizing' suicide are mainly concerned about their social and moral tabboos being offended rather than about suicide itself being a bad thing. In other worse, there's an attitude that "fetishizing suicide is bad because people who commit suicide are bad people and shouldn't be depicted as real human beings with positivity and agency," not because suicide in itself is bad. You'd think we'd have left that attitude in the 19th century where it belongs by now.

    As for calling it a 'crappy high school drama', guess who the majority demographic of Netflix is? Not nerdy basement-dwelling history buffs such as ourselves, but ordinary young Americans. I like it when the gods of TV throw us the odd historical bone but even I found Marco Polo to be too boring to get through. History is only interesting when there's some kind of point to it, Marco Polo is literally just 'white guy bums around in exotic location with ninjas'. I'd rather have something like 13 Reasons Why which talks to real world issues. I love Game of Thrones as much as the next person but the reality is I never really watch fictional history shows unless I have some sort of connection to them, i.e. they're British or related to my interests, namely Ancient Rome. I guess most others are the same, which is why Marco Polo got a rating of 1 star on Rotten Tomatoes and lost Netflix $200 million, meanwhile 13 Reasons Why is their most popular show ever, even beating out House of Cards and Orange is the New Black (at least, as rated by viewer engagement on social media, Netflix don't publish official viewing figures).
    Last edited by Copperknickers II; August 22, 2018 at 04:08 PM.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  12. #12

    Default Re: 13 Reasons Why

    nah you're wrong. The series is a disgusting feitshizing of suicide which blames those who influence those who kill themselves based upon flimsy, yet politically relevant/correct justifiable reasons. It's disgusting. Any back stepping from this position in the message for obvious reasons does nothing but reveal the underlying ridiculous premise. The series serves obvious propaganda objectives by perpetuating "rape culture" in the flimsiest ways possible.


  13. #13
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    12,539

    Default Re: 13 Reasons Why

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    nah you're wrong. The series is a disgusting feitshizing of suicide which blames those who influence those who kill themselves based upon flimsy, yet politically relevant/correct justifiable reasons. It's disgusting.
    Right. Because it's "disgusting" to ask people to exercise a bit of basic empathy and human compassion.

    The series serves obvious propaganda objectives by perpetuating "rape culture" in the flimsiest ways possible.
    Oh, this should be good. Tell me Ponty, how precisely does 13 Reasons perpetuate rape culture?
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •