Reparations for slavery

[NosPortatArma]

Simply put, the Arab slave trade was more about domestic servants/sex slaves/warriors.The Atlantic slave trade was more about labor, and gave them a subhuman status.

As if being a sex slave isn't dehumanizing?? Oh what ridiculous lengths some will go to trivialise slavery, as long as it's done by non-whites... jesus

[fkizz]

As if being a sex slave isn't dehumanizing?? Oh what ridiculous lengths some will go to trivialise slavery, as long as it's done by non-whites... jesus

The potential to trivialize slavery is latent in all people, regardless of political background.

[Ludicus]

The potential to trivialize slavery is latent in all people, regardless of political background.

As if being a sex slave isn't dehumanizing?? Oh what ridiculous lengths some will go to trivialise slavery, as long as it's done by non-whites... jesus

I'm not trying to trivialize slavery when it's done by non-whites.Let's keep politics out of discussion.

Slavery in the Ottoman Empire had some differences from that of Christian Europeans or Americans.
Ask the Portuguese why we started the Atlantic slave trade. What was the main reason for the start of the transatlantic slave trade? need for labor on New World plantations.

What was the main reason for the start of the trans‐Saharan or Islamic slave trade? having slaves was seen as a sign of wealth and prestige.

(And the same applies to the intra-African slavery trade -eg.Kongo, previous post).
What were most of the slaves used for? for domestic purposes.

From an historical point of view, there were differences. Slavery was hierarchical, and many of the mothers of Ottoman Turkish sultans were slaves.And after the 15th century, all Ottoman sultans had mothers who had been slaves.
Read the book Making Europe. Peoples, Politics, and Culture.

Slaves were central to the households of early Ottoman sultans and ruling elites...slaves factored heavily into sexual relations and reproduction in Ottoman society. It was common for slave concubines to bear their master's children who inherited their free father's status.Once she gave birth to a boy, her position in her master's household was protected. The head of the household, whether the sultan or an Ottoman official, was not allowed to sell her once she had borne him a son, and at his death, she would be free.

By the middle of the fifteenth century, the sultans had given up marrying and had children exclusively with slave, whose offspring provided the sultan with a poll of potential heirs- and has also created conditions for their rivalry. After the fifteenth century, all the Ottoman sultans had mothers who had been slaves in their father's household, which also means that sultans had mothers of different ethnic origins from their fathers.
The mother of a ruling sultan often wielded great political power through her influence over her son.
Mothers raised their sons in their harems quarters until they reached the age of twelve, when the sons were appointed provincial governors.

(shall we talk in relativist terms? what about the condition of the African slaves in the western plantation colonial system?)

Islam also used slaves for labor.

Use of African slaves for agriculture,which was the main use of these slaves in our western colonies, was rare.Slave workers in different professions, eg. in salt miners, pearl divers,and the craftsmen were allowed to keep part of their wages.
Quoting again,

Although most slaves performed menial labor, slaves also formed the backbone of the army, served as advisors and ministers in bureaucracy, and bore the sultan's children.
Slaves in the army and government had usually brought as children from Christian and other non Muslim lands. Endowed by Islamic law with limited power to act on their master's behalf, slaves could exercise some authority. At the level of the sultan, eunuch slaves served as officials in various departments of government.

And, btw, the condition of the Jews under the Ottomans contrasts positively /markedly to their life in the West.

[Infidel144]

"After the fifteenth century, all the Ottoman sultans had mothers who had been slaves in their father's household, which also means that sultans had mothers of different ethnic origins from their fathers."

What were those different ethnic origins?

[NosPortatArma]

"After the fifteenth century, all the Ottoman sultans had mothers who had been slaves in their father's household, which also means that sultans had mothers of different ethnic origins from their fathers."

What were those different ethnic origins?

circassians and east europeans were popular

[Ludicus]

"After the fifteenth century, all the Ottoman sultans had mothers who had been slaves in their father's household, which also means that sultans had mothers of different ethnic origins from their fathers."What were those different ethnic origins?

From all parts of the empire, non Muslim Africa - and Christians, since the Muslims were forbidden to enslave other Muslims. In fact, it was a multiethnic world. The empire encompassed lands occupied by many different ethnic groups that followed the Christian, Jewish or Muslim religion. Many Christians and Jews achieved positions of wealth and power.
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On a side note, The Arab slave trade began in the middle of the seventh century, but it was no structurally impeditive to the rise of the great African empires. In some aspects, the Atlantic slave trade was worse because it has the most relevance to the demographic impact - and other long lasting effects in modern Africa.

[Infidel144]

circassians and east europeans were popular

Yes.

From all parts of the empire, non Muslim Africa - and Christians

Really? Which sultans had mothers from "non Muslim Africa"?

[95thrifleman]

Slavery goes hand in hand with every culture.

[removeduser_487563287433]

As if being a sex slave isn't dehumanizing?? Oh what ridiculous lengths some will go to trivialise slavery, as long as it's done by non-whites... jesus

The fact people have so much separating the issues from their own racial prejudices shows just how important these racial prejudices are right now, today, despite our alt-righters claiming this is all in the past and time to move on (while separately writing a thousand words in support of Confederate statues of course).

It's a massive Red Herring. Okay, so slavery is an ancient and wide practice. But what does that have to do with the potential of righting a specific and localised historical wrong, to the economic benefit of all and the strengthening of the Republic?

[95thrifleman]

The fact people have so much separating the issues from their own racial prejudices shows just how important these racial prejudices are right now, today, despite our alt-righters claiming this is all in the past and time to move on (while separately writing a thousand words in support of Confederate statues of course).

It's a massive Red Herring. Okay, so slavery is an ancient and wide practice. But what does that have to do with the potential of righting a specific and localised historical wrong, to the economic benefit of all and the strengthening of the Republic?

Because it will not right any wrong, nor will it help the republic. Reperations will have to be paid for, that will mean increased tax or less money for education, infrastructure etc.

It's just blue sky dream to somehow make the world better by giving money to the poor.

[95thrifleman]

There is another aspect to this being ignored. Slavery was abolished in 1865 (1833 in the British Empire).

How is it fair, moral or even legal to demand a people who do not advocate slavery, have not owned slaves (nor is it legal to do so) and have NOTHING to do with the actions conducted over 150 years ago to bear a financial burden?

[removeduser_487563287433]

Because it will not right any wrong, nor will it help the republic. Reperations will have to be paid for, that will mean increased tax or less money for education, infrastructure etc.

It's just blue sky dream to somehow make the world better by giving money to the poor.

I think I have addressed this point: reparations in the form of single cash payments are unworkable. But reparations in the form of targeted social, economic and business efforts - i.e. mortgage access, new business loan support, targeted training, improved public education and health will not only assist in closing the wealth gap, but indeed drive the economy and strengthen society.

[95thrifleman]

I think I have addressed this point: reparations in the form of single cash payments are unworkable. But reparations in the form of targeted social, economic and business efforts - i.e. mortgage access, new business loan support, targeted training, improved public education and health will not only assist in closing the wealth gap, but indeed drive the economy and strengthen society.

It still has to be paid for by a taxpayer that has no legal responsibility for a 150 year old crime.

[removeduser_487563287433]

It still has to be paid for by a taxpayer that has no legal responsibility for a 150 year old crime.

I have no issue with that though. When I pay taxes and it goes to a pension, even though I am 31 years old and may not live to a pensionable age, I am okay with that. Even though I pay taxes and it goes to treating a childhood cancer, even though I never had it, I am okay with that. If I pay taxes, and it goes to a project to train up people in a deprived area, even though... oh wait I am from a deprived area and I had to emigrate to make my fortune... and I am still okay with that.

When I want to buy a house in the UK, I will need first time buyer support because I have been priced out of the market... I hope all the people that made of money through property by being the right age in the eighties and nineties are okay with that.

Yeah. I suppose I don't understand the point. I am no anarcho-libertarian. I am a centre-right Brit and I am pretty used to taxes being invested in people who are ultimately unrelated to me and my needs.

I think a massive argument you are missing entirely is that closing the wealth gap will be a boost to the economy by adding more economically active people to American communities.

[Cope]

I think I have addressed this point: reparations in the form of single cash payments are unworkable. But reparations in the form of targeted social, economic and business efforts - i.e. mortgage access, new business loan support, targeted training, improved public education and health will not only assist in closing the wealth gap, but indeed drive the economy and strengthen society.

You could advocate for such policies irrespective of whether slavery or racial discrimination existed: ordinarily, people tend not to consider social security, education or healthcare funding as reparations for historical wrongs. To that extent, its difficult to frame these ideas as reparations for slavery unless you were going to specifically limit the beneficiaries to those who were of a certain heritage.

[removeduser_487563287433]

You could advocate for such policies irrespective of whether slavery or racial discrimination existed: ordinarily, people tend not to consider social security, education or healthcare funding as reparations for historical wrongs. To that extent, its difficult to frame these ideas as reparations for slavery unless you were going to specifically limit the beneficiaries to those who were of a certain heritage.

I think it fits when you consider the growing racial wealth gap as caused by slavery and subsequent persecution.

[Cope]

I think it fits when you consider the growing racial wealth gap as caused by slavery and subsequent persecution.

It fits much better as being part of a general redistribution strategy rather than as restitution. There is no particular reason that the ideas you've suggested wouldn't benefit disadvantaged peoples across a whole range of societies which haven't experienced slavery (in a technical sense) since the feudal age. It would only really be viewed as reparations if there was some race based affirmative action attached to it, but that seems counter productive since ignoring the race component wouldn't diminish the effectiveness of the policies.

[removeduser_487563287433]

There is no particular reason that the ideas you've suggested wouldn't benefit disadvantaged peoples across a whole range of societies which haven't experienced slavery (in a technical sense) since the feudal age.

I suppose. But how is that on topic or relevant to the fact it would also help readdress the imbalances caused by slavery in the USA?

[Cope]

I suppose. But how is that on topic or relevant to the fact it would also help readdress the imbalances caused by slavery in the USA?

I'm simply stating that the policies you suggested aren't, in my view, tantamount to reparations.

[removeduser_487563287433]

I'm simply stating that the policies you suggested aren't, in my view, tantamount to reparations.

Ha well I think that would help repair the damage so... they very literally are! But if you want to go further you do you