Ideas for a submod

[luiszml11]

Hello everyone, I’d like to open up a discussion for some of the stuff that you like to change in this awesome mod made by azumi. Altought I’m not even close to being a modder myself (I can do some minor things), share your ideas to see if anyone is willing to help. I’ll start:

1. Remove swords from pikemen: yeah, it’s been an issue since the game released but right now pikemen are complete and totally useless (I once fought with two stacked Aventuros lined up, without moving, wall of pikes in the front, in a street against a EE general’s bodyguard and he completely routed my men, altought with heavy loses. If in that scenario there where two Spear Militia I would have killed him with no trouble). The argument against it have always been that they become way too OP, so I suggest lowering HARD their attack (pike militia down to 1, aventuros down to 3 maybe) and also lowering all of their defenses down to 0 except for armor, which should be 0 for pike militia and maybe 3-4 for aventuros. This should help in the sense that arrow fire from even the weakest horse archers or tower will be devastating to them, and maybe their hard counter
2. Raise the speed of light swordsmen (or posibbly just the elite light swordmen): There is very little reason in this game to go light, putting muslim factions at a disadvantage against europeans, and limiting their strategies to cavalry and horse archers or you lose. Giving light swordsmen some kind of bonus to speed (like the highlanders have) would increase their maneuverability in the battlefield. They still won’t be able to fight upfront againts armored dismounted knights but they can atleast try to surround them and maybe have a chance.
3. Raise the movement speed of javelin throwers: I don’t believe anyone uses these units by now. They are VERY hard to use effectively and need very specific placement conditions to do at least a little amount of damage, also they always have to reagroup once they throw the first jav, wasting precious little time. Raising a bit their movement speed could allow you to get them to meet those conditions earlier, and reagroup faster after throwing
4. On another note, I wanted to ask if you could help me integrating the Hahawks native voices mod to this mod, I’ve tried everything and the game always end completely silent after I modified the files (here’s the link if you don’t know what I’m talking about http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...d-quot-Ver-1-0)

I’m completely open to discuss anything in this list and would like to encourage anyone to share their ideas to see if it is really feasible while also not OP
So, what do you guys think?

[KmanBEAST]

I completely agree with all the changes presented here. I could very much do all of this myself by just editing some text files, though installing Hahawks native voices mod might take a bit more effort. Otherwise, I'm quite sure it would be easy to just go into export_descr_unit to remove the secondary weapons from pikemen, increase the speed of ALL light infantry, and somehow edit the stat_fire_delay for all javelinmen units. The last one I'm actually less sure about now that I think about it, but I'd have to see what Stainless Steel did cause javelins are a godsend in that mod.

Otherwise, yeah pretty good ideas for the start of a submod. I wouldn't like to see a submod that adds more factions because it'll most likely just clutter Europe even more, but that's just my opinion. Right now I'd say a good submod would have these fixes, tweak some other stats for units and buildings, and implement the native voices mod. Maybe some reemerging factions? Idk, I guess it's up to whoever is willing to do that kinda heavy scripting.

[Shogun]

@luiszml11
Ingame mechanics are lets say final touch when submod/mod is creating for these changes u actually need to have at least 2 beta testers or more so u can have more precise what should be done.



My proposals would be this (actually im considering to maybe try to submod this mod as standalone although my skills are not good enough but team of newcomers and ppl could maybe try):

TV mod bronze version: Rework entire flags and retinues and traits and units.

Flags more historical. Type of flags: Heraldic flag for units for main roster factions and auxilaries example: English units english flag, mercenaries from lets say welsh bowmen welsh flag etc (although there is already that in game but its IMO somehow out of order.
Standard ( royal bodyguard and noble units only all as sub flags) both english standard (two roundel ends) and scottish (pavon-pointed) and continetal (1 roundel end and forked-one end)
Banner two types 1 banner to designate unit formation (archers, infrantry, cavalry, siege, mercs) 2nd banner specific heraldic banner for factions (all units)
Penons (all units except royals, noble, mercs units) all designed: forked one, pointed and pavon
Penoncelle (merc units)
Gonfalon (specific units like we already have great cross, carricio standard or bandera del reino which misses from spanish faction) all design square-one, forked and roundel
Schwenkel Banner ( specific royal unit)


More in depth retinues (i already proposed that) divided into Royal, Ducal/Province, City/Lordship, Ecclesial, Trade, Art, Industry, Warrior, Science, Goverment/Office retinues, Specific nation title (titles) example:

Faction: Lordship of Ireland
Starting city: Dublin
Starting province: Leinster

Royal: King of the all Ireland +4 bonuses
Ducal: King of Leinster +3 bonuses
Lordship: Lord of Dublin +2 bonuses
Specific nation title: Taosach +1 bonus
Ecclesial: Cardinal of the all Ireland +3 bonuses
Trade: Merchant +2 bonuses
Art: Writer +1 bonus
Industry: Master blacksmith +2 bonuses
Warrior: Hero of the War +2 bonuses
Science: Invetor +2 bonuses
Government: Chamberlain +2 bonuses

Traits opposite off retinues. Some titles can also give negative bonuses from characters.

Units: I would get rid of those constables from vanilla and vizir that Azumi added rework some units by kicking out some and getting new ones especially for italian venice or HRE and papal states and sicily:
We dont have units which were mercenaries like: White company, Great Company (HRE), Company of Star (HRE and papal states), Navarese company (Spain) etc.
Specific mercenary units would be given specific building in specific town were they originated so u could recruit them (already we have this with welsh units and some others)

TV mod silver version: new factions and new script/events and buildings tech tree
get rid off: Damascus, Baghdad, Novgorod, Milan
new factions: Aragon, Wales, Serbia, Croatia

buildings adding (although Azumi added some on my proposal) but let we need like: river fort, coastal fortress, and feudal estates that we have from Sicilian Vespers mod 3.3

TV gold version: eventually new entire map ( i got one from Potop TW which IMHO best map of europe) and new factions continium removing Apache and Aztecs and Persians. Adding Sweden, Navvare and Tunis. Mongols goes to unplayable mode with significant force appearing in 1220/3 AD.


TV mod platinum version: new city models and forts representing cites scuh we have from 1648 mod and DoC mod just more medieval not colonial as in 1648 mod.

TV mod diamond version: Ingame IWTE cities models and specific game mechanics for units.

[KmanBEAST]

I think those are all great ideas and all, but I don't know about implementing those complicated and really in-depth ideas as a submod for THIS mod. Maybe for a mod like Stainless Steel or something yeah, but not this.

The point of this mod is to keep the same vanilla feeling as vanilla, but fixing and improving upon everything that needs to be fixed. It's what vanilla really should have been, hence the name "Total Vanilla."

Mods like Stainless Steel are a bit too much for the casual gamer. However, the base vanilla game, while fun and great on its own, really could be fixed in many SIMPLE ways. This is the point of the mod, or at least that's what I'm getting from how 4zumi has posted on these forums.

He's a great modder, and one of the most dedicated I've seen out there. I think it would be more of an honor to just keep what he has, no rework everything he's done by revamping the map, all units, all mechanics, etc. Rather, we should just continue to fix the small stuff in order to make the greater project in the end. He might even support the submod in this way possibly, though I doubt it.

[Cokjan]

Nice ideas.

@OP

1) It's pretty hard mate, I did just that by reducing pikemen attack to 1 and tweaking them but they still rekt when their swords were removed. You might want to take a look at Stainless Steel's export_descr_unit, IIRC they have pretty good pikemen. And also nice idea about the armors.

2 & 3) Very easy, you can easily add

move_speed_mod x

under a unit's attributes, a higher value means higher movement speed.

4) That is a pretty nice find! I never found that, gonna try installing that somehow now.

[luiszml11]

@shogun wow, it's amazing how much tought you put into these. So let's discuss
I think the majority of your suggestions are quite nice, but it really overcomplicate things for a mod that should be about delivering vanilla experience it feels like you actually want to play, deus lo vult, sicilian vespers, stainless steel and total vanilla at the same time xD

i do like the idea of recruiting companies as that was how armies were really hired in thise times. I think we can do something simple like changing the name of "mercerary frankish knight" to "frankish cavalry company" and so on
Yeah, specific buildings in specific regions to get mercenaries sounds really nice. It will also give you an incentive to develop different campaigns conquering diferent parts of the world (in this mod as the hre i always go to conquer the british isles first to get those awesome welsh archers)
The ancillary system seems way too complicated :/
The other things really require high level modding, so for now i don't think it's feasible

@cokjan but how much did they rekt? Against which units? If you put it against light armored units i think the actual historical result would be that the swordsmen would die horribly, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1582_Cagayan_battles (it is a lot better in the spanish wiki) reading it you'll see how a spanish formation of 30-40 pikes fought and won against 1000-1500 lighly armored pirates.
Although what I had in mind was that pike militia should lose against dismounted feudal knights, but aventuros should break even against high level swordsmen (that is, either to lose, or win but after being pin down for a long while, which expose them to horse archers and cav)

[Shogun]

@KmanBEAST

but I don't know about implementing those complicated and really in-depth ideas as a submod for THIS mod.

Well 4zumi mod is based much more than Vanilla and we need define what vanilla is in this mod, factions (not all off them cuz u dont have damascus,armenia,baghdad,persia from vanilla) map is not vanilla it can be say its upgraded vanilla map but not vanilla itself.
Thats why i said my proposal for submod would to take 4zumi idea beyond vanilla of his vanilla beyond by reforging/reworking some aspects of his mods. Actually if u take a good look some ideas he already included in his mod. But amount off all ideas requires team not only 1 man army which is Azumi. I spoked with Azumi but he is not for idea of the team cuz he invested 3 years in 1 man project to deliver this rly good mod. And my proposal is for team of players of various skills not for 1 man to do it.

Maybe for a mod like Stainless Steel or something yeah, but not this.

Although SS is truly good mod i dont think its better than SV or ERAS due to more complex approach of those mod. i played SS 6.1 and 6.3., 6.4 and none of them had accurate starting factions in year 1080 in 6.1. u have even templars were u dont even have them in 1080 (historically) so depth os mod is not only giving touch on map or strat models, depth is how much u can accurate give gameplay closer to starting position historical events and here SV mod simply destroys on that almost everysingle mod in forums m2tw. Cuz it covers specific event years and starting years.




As i said my proposal is for team of players and I gave sketch were and how should mod/submod progress during different phases i can only regret i wasnt online when Azumi started this mod i bet he would implement much of these ideas i proposed (ofc i would help with my works too).

But nevertheless im not sure how many are interested for team to do submod standalone for this mod?

[Shogun]

@ luiszml11

it feels like you actually want to play, deus lo vult, sicilian vespers, stainless steel and total vanilla at the same time xD

They are all good mods and when SV was online i actually ask him for some proposals to implement.

but it really overcomplicate things for a mod that should be about delivering vanilla experience

Actually its not if u have willfull ppl that want to do mod. Lets see u have almost all units from vanilla so to do modeling will require just changing to some extent skins for designated specific units. Like example we could take mercenary spearmen rename it as company of star and give skinner task to reforge skin/armor to fit more acurate to company of start i can make flags and banners and modeller should only add or create 1 or 2 additional soliders to unit as banner bearers.

I think we can do something simple like changing the name of "mercerary frankish knight" to "frankish cavalry company"

Wrong. Historically rly mercs should be divided into 3 categories: Universal, Regional, Famous. Example: Universal mercs: Western europe, british isle half of central europe and northern europe: Frankish Spearman, Archer, Swordsman, Crossowmen, Knight, Pikemen. Term frank in medieval was used literally to determinate western european men not matter from which kingdom he is coming.
Southeast europe: Balkan Archer, Axemen, Spearmen, Horseman.
Central Europe (Hun/Pol/Rus regions): Slavic levy, Slavic Horsemen, Slavic archer.
Russian regions: Tatar Riders, Tatar Archer, Spearmen, Slavic warrior (Axemen (Novgorod) and javelins(Kiev))
and etc.

Regional mercs (specific region and shared or specific faction owning): Swiss pikemen (HRE, Papal State region: switzerland), Flemish pikemen (France- reg: Flanders), Landsckent pikemen (HRE- region: Holland, Billung march),Catalan company (Aragon- reg:Catalonia), Navarese company( Spain reg: Navvare), Great company (HRE- region Milan), Company of saint george ( Venice, Papl States, regions: Verona, Milan, Bologna), White company (HRE, Papal States, Venice, Sicily - region: Florence), Company of Hat/ Black Company (Pope, Venice, Sicily - reg: Florence), Company of the Star (Pope, HRE, England, Venice - region: Rome, Milan, Genoa), Company of Bretons (France - reg: Brittany), Company of Rose (Papal States - region: Bologna), Company of the Hook ( HRE-reg. Florence) Routiers (enitre France), Condottieri (Sicily, Venice, Papl States), Tard-Venus ( France -reg: Lyon), écorcheurs (france - regions: Dijon, Paris) etc.

Famous merc: Specific region specific faction: Byzantines Varangian guard/constaninople. Black army hungary/ budapest etc.

The ancillary system seems way too complicated :/

Well thats how it was if u take good look i reffered to all retinues and traits in first person (so ppl are like that: merchant, trader ,chambarlain) I was simply shocked that Azumi went and found Suda as Retinue whichwas admistration book in Byznatine empire or those chronicles with due respect i dont think it was good to put those as any kind retinue. Much better is my proposal were genrals, agents etc has rly geniune titles. And they more historical accurate.

The other things really require high level modding, so for now i don't think it's feasible

This is proposal for team of moders and ppl that have will and skills to some degree to go in as i said it will need minimum 5-6 ppl top like 14-15 so task are shared but main guy would be assembler that can fit what we produce into correct folder and test it.
Team should consist: mod leader, co-leader, 2 3d modellers, 2 2d modellers, 1 audio master, 1 video master (for new trailer keeping Azumi motto), 3-4 researchers, supporters xyz, 2 scripters, 1 skinner (maybe two), 1-2 jacks of trade, masters of none and ofc 3-4 beta testers.

So this team could be made either by asking hlp from forums and from newcomers who wants to prove theirs skill or maybe experinced moders like work force or over-cite project. I can set up entire TS channels for this if will exist.

[4zumi]

@luis
Thanks for your suggestions.
The pikemen are always an issue, this way or another, I have not planned to change them, but will take a fifth look and test them further.
Javelin and Light Unit movement speed: Yeah, I could see that. For the Javelins definitively, for other light Infantry I will have to test it out who I want to give that.
I am not much of a sound magician ( I am glad I could change that what I have changed without shooting the mod to hell). But I will have a look at how to install it, when I find the time.

@all
If you are attempting to make a submod and run into difficulties feel free to ask me about specifics on how to do things in this mod, as TVB will most likely have some unique quirks, nobody but me would grasp or think about. So you might run into problems ctds if you change one thing that should not cause an issue normaly.
And I would advise everyone to wait for 3.0 as things may very well change a bit from 2.999 to 3.0.
So all I have to say now is, I am reading the posts and will jump in, if someone might have a question, but will for now refrain from taking part in making a submod, besides answering questions.

@kman
you are right, this mod is for the vanilla feeling (albeit it got really big). And I do not like over complicated mechanics, as they tend to take the fun away from the game for me, if I have to manage everything into the smallest detail.
If someone would make a "full total realism manage the princess shaving schedule in detail" submod, you are welcome to try, but it would not be what I have intended.

[4zumi]

@all
A few hints for the mod.
-No more new regions, if you add something new, an old region has to go
-No more free unit slots, if you make a new one, an old one has to go
-No more free building slots, for a new one, delete an old one or shift something around
-No more new factions, see above
-Be careful with the use of Settlement/ Region names, they are not always the same (sometimes a difference by two letters)
-Settlement names have roots in lots of files, so be careful changing them
-The campaign script is a work of art even I do not know what it sometimes means

Edit:
@kman
I fiddled around in the EDU. The stat_fire_delay for javelin units was already at 0, so it all comes down to animation speed.
I gave all javelinmen a 1.2 movement bonus, works out.

@luis
What do you consider light infantry in the muslim roster? Al Haqa? Khasseki?
I scrolled through the units and could not decide to give them a movement bonus.

[Shogun]

Ofc any1 should wait for final version 3.0. and then can be talk about submod.

[Cokjan]

Hey people, I have several suggestions.

- Limited Max treasury
To prevent the players from steamrolling the AI with over than 100.000 fl in their treasury. Perhaps a new building called treasury/bank could be built to increase the maximum limit by a meagre 10.000 (the building itself costs around 3000), otherwise you would face maybe inflation or the gold just maxes out at the maximum limit. Starting limit should be 30.000/40.000

Example could be found at

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://tmsship.wikidot.com/max-treasury-limited

- Army upkeep is higher in hostile territory
A simpler approach to Byg's Grim Reality is to perhaps add something like higher upkeep when your army is not on a friendly territory to somewhat simulate the need to supply the troops. Players actually have to plan the invasion and a multi front invasion would be devastating to the player's income.

Example could be found at

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://tmsship.wikidot.com/army-supplies-costs

Does anyone know how to add those features to the mod? Thanks.

[selv]

Well now when final version is out biggest q will be would be possible to find ppl and submod it?

Congratz Azumi for finishing mod

I am not sure you are approaching this from the right angle, Shogun. I read that you consider you have low modding skills but noboby has high skills to start with. It's normal to fail countless times before knowing what you are doing, in other words. People who have learned areas of modding often have their own goals, I am just saying because in your list of modding team above, you will be lucky to find one motivated enough, and in my humble opinion, this person better be you or whoever want to mod bad enough.

Also consider that teams aren't necessary the time/effort saving that you envision, unless that each member happen to have it's own speciality, don't shoot each other by modding the same files at the same time, manage to keep updated on any changes even minor because development change/evolve all the time, and that everybody agree on everything... All that, would also be quite the lucky strike.

Hey people, I have several suggestions.

- Limited Max treasury

- Army upkeep is higher in hostile territory


Does anyone know how to add those features to the mod? Thanks.

Similar most recent thread on the limited max treasury:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15614727

There are no command to change the units upkeep but this is not something I thought about before, maybe there would be something to do with traits effects, or else a scripting system similar to the treasury but based on character events with the InEnemyLand, UnitType/Category/Attribute conditions, and calculations based on their normal upkeep.
Useful links, docudemons for various scripting terms:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=4066
List of various tutorials:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...rces-amp-Tools

And you should ask in the workshop when you have troubles. Like I said, it's normal to fail before getting things done.

[4zumi]

A bit of input from me, regarding the limited max treasury.
I have implemented something like this in 3.0, to halt the runaway wealth accumulation.
It only affects the player. If he accumulates over 50.000 moneys, a script will kick in that deducts 5.000 moneys. If memory serves me right, every 50.000 step afterwards, the same happens. So if you gave 1.000.000 moneys at the turns end, there will be 100.000 moneys deducted.

In my testing this seems to work really well and does not feel artificial. But it will halt the money piling for quiet some time (but does not prevent it totally). I see it as an addtional corruption layer.

[Sar1n]

One thing I'd love to see is slower campaign submod. 2TPY, double unit and building cost and unit upkeep, half unit pool replenishment speed, double building times, all events retimed to match proper dates with 2TPY. I'd do it myself, but my laptop's numpad is acting up and this involves changing many numbers...

Also, mercenary barracks for orthodox and muslim factions, using existing units to give them unit variety on par with catholic factions.