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Thread: RTW VS MTW in EB

  1. #21
    Morrowgan's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Without EB I we wouldn't have EB II...
    Member of the Beyond Skyrim Project

  2. #22

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by kingofportugal View Post
    I didnt mean to say that EB1 was better than EB2. Only to say that the engine of RTW1 made the things overall look much better. Just look at the attachment for example. I loved the clones army, it was so smooth. The battles were so smooth. And the unit experience was better too, the gold chevron was worthy to keep an eye on your elites and keep retraining them.
    Hmm, were gold chevrons more useful in RTW?

    Ideally I would make chevrons more powerful in a TES tw mod, but I haven't figured out yet how to do so.

  3. #23

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytaninc View Post
    I don't really like the population mechanic of RTW, but at least FATW did something interesting with it. They made it so that Dwarves and Elves can either choose between their own units and slow or negative growth in their starting settlements or allowing humans to settle instead.
    What mod is this for RTW can can u link? I feel like the smoothness of RTW's battles might make a fantasy mod even more cool ... also the script of choosing population at conquest of settlement might make for interesting opportunities.

  4. #24

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Tasunke View Post
    Hmm, were gold chevrons more useful in RTW?

    Ideally I would make chevrons more powerful in a TES tw mod, but I haven't figured out yet how to do so.
    Chevrons in RTW add +1 defence skill, attack skill, and morale each. It's hugely OP (except when using Aradan's EDU-matic system that is found in FATW).

    M2TW chevrons are much more subtle in their effects; one of the reasons why EB 2 is better balanced than EB 1, IMO (the others being that pikemen and horse archers aren't god tier anymore).


    Quote Originally Posted by Tasunke View Post
    What mod is this for RTW can can u link? I feel like the smoothness of RTW's battles might make a fantasy mod even more cool ... also the script of choosing population at conquest of settlement might make for interesting opportunities.
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...-TW-(FATW)-(BI)
    Also feel free to check the link in my sig, although those guides haven't been updated yet to reflect the additional units and changes in the last patch.

  5. #25

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Hmm, were gold chevrons more useful in RTW?

    Ideally I would make chevrons more powerful in a TES tw mod, but I haven't figured out yet how to do so.
    Yes chevrons were more OP in RTW. Chevrons in M2TW are more related to morale AFAIK, and less about stats(though some stat increases occur).

  6. #26

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    I believe in M2TW each class (ie bronze, silver, gold) gives a one-point bonus to attack, defensive skill and some undefined bonus to morale.

    The individual chevrons don't do anything.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
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  7. #27

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrowgan View Post
    Without EB I we wouldn't have EB II...
    indeed.

    EB aside, i loved RTR and its excellent stand alone campaign - the Iberian Conquest, was it? that was absolutely superb - scripted missions, historical events etc. dont remember if there were more of them. RTR7 was good, too. CA may have gotten the idea of their minor settlements (that they turned into 'villages') from them.

  8. #28
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Guys, I like this thread very much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactics Mayers View Post
    The only thing RTW has over Med2 is the great battle system, siege battles and the lethality mechanic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn View Post
    For these and many other buggy reasons, I'll always prefer RTW battles.
    I think the battle RTW has one major drawback - the general very prone to charging at the beginning of the battle. I've just played an RTW game (IB-SAI mod) and realized that years of playing the M2TW and the other TW (R2TW, ATW) I got un-accustomed from this RTW bug-feature. I also have a feeling that the M2TW BAI is superior to the RTW BAI (I admit: mainly from mods using the RBAI and with higher morale levels that this of EBII).


    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    About the unit experience, I understand what you mean but actually I like how the units experience is in EBII. Because in EBI you would have units with gold chevrons that were incredibly better than the normal ones. In EBII units with gold chevrons are still better than normal but that's not soo disproportional.
    Quote Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn View Post
    Yes chevrons were more OP in RTW. Chevrons in M2TW are more related to morale AFAIK, and less about stats(though some stat increases occur).
    One may see it from another angle. I think in reality the differences between troops originate not necessarily from different types and equipment, but from differences in experience, and skills gained through experience. I think there're many examples when theoretically inferior troops would beat the stronger, better armored etc. ones just because they have fought more in the past. So maybe the OP-chevrons in RTW convey this aspect of reality? A weak unit with golden chevrons can be turned in a superb unit - if we don't have an upgrade system for units (as it is in the Civilisation, for instance), why not to achieve it this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingofportugal View Post
    This confirms my theory. RTW1 is the best Total War ever made. RTW had better aesthetics both in map and the units and the battle all looked better.
    There're still modders doing mods for both and I've just played that campaign in RTW-IB-SAI - I've had much fun, you can have it as well! Although I'd rather not play EBI given that we've got EBII - and for all the reasons given by Lusitano, Quintus, Khengis and the others. Especially, as Hellenikon does, I find the unit replenishment system of M2TW is far beyond RTW or any later TW games.
    However, for certain historical set-ups, the RTW problems with diplomacy, CAI, non-limited recruitment, lack of progress for the units, etc. may be much less important than for the EB-type setting. I mean, a constant-campaing set up of mods the IB-SAI (with very limited need for diplomacy, little time/money/need to build-up the infrastructure - you just need to you your armies and take over the provinces) may be played with much immersion.

  9. #29

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Yeah, the BAI was terrible. Which made those chore-like battles (2-3 full stacks every turn, forever) even worse. It always did exactly the same things and as soon as you killed the enemy general, your work was done. Not to mention the annoying prevalence of "matching", where instead of just holding a line, it would try to chase your units around and allow itself to be easily drawn apart.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; June 08, 2018 at 08:57 AM.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  10. #30

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Can't you guys add lethality to weapons in EBII? Or is it hardcoded in that you can't add lethality to weapons?

  11. #31

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Palaiogos View Post
    Can't you guys add lethality to weapons in EBII? Or is it hardcoded in that you can't add lethality to weapons?
    It's not a feature in the M2TW engine. Hardcoded, they removed it when they moved from RTW.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  12. #32
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Yeah, the BAI was terrible. Which made those chore-like battles (2-3 full stacks every turn, forever) even worse. It always did exactly the same things and as soon as you killed the enemy general, your work was done. Not to mention the annoying prevalence of "matching", where instead of just holding a line, it would try to chase your units around and allow itself to be easily drawn apart.
    It still is. I've just played a few battles with the RTW-IB-SAI submod and it recalled me even a bigger problem / exploit. The BAI is going to attack you if you've got forces of similar strength. So the best tactics is to prepare yourself and wait, occasionally baiting with some cavalry. If you have much archers you can just shoot all the enemies down. That's it. And yes, for many mods that endless stack-spam. I wonder how the FATW mod behaves in BAI or on the matter of stack spam though, never played it.

    BTW - this is really amazing how productive was the modding community in the noughties ('00s) when the RTW appeared. So many big mods providing actually new games, so much ingenuity (some groups keep still the banner – RTR, IB, RS).
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; June 11, 2018 at 04:16 AM.

  13. #33

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    I think FATW's diplomacy guide is indicative of the amount of research that went into that mod.

  14. #34

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by kingofportugal View Post
    This confirms my theory. RTW1 is the best Total War ever made. RTW had better aesthetics both in map and the units and the battle all looked better. Still I wont play it because EB2 has Remergent factions, improved diplomacy etc...

    But i do feel nostalgic about EB1, it was really a masterpiece. My hope is that one day creative assembly realizes that both RTW1 and MTW1 only need a few improvements to be better than the latest releases they have made.

    I'm not going to compare EB and EB2 but I like EB2 more.... Vanilla units in both RTW and M2TW were ugly (typical for CA: cheap copy-paste recycling again and again), but I agree even cloned RTW units look better, because there is something wrong with Med2 units (skeletons?), they are all twisted and unnatural, they simply don't look human... Med2 maps, both campaign and battle maps look much better tho. Med2 AI is certainly better (far from great, but then even ToB AI is still bad lol). RTW CAI was absolutely atrocious, almost non-existent. Some modders claimed Alex.exe for RTW was somewhat better, but to be honest there was no much difference. I still remember playing RTW for the first time, playing with one roman faction, and watching other two doing absolutely nothing for 50 or more turns... "the best TW game ever made"... not really.

    Both games were popular mostly because they were incredibly moddable. People still playing them exclusively because of mods. Who is going to play Thrones of Britannia in 10 years?

  15. #35

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    I loved EB1 but EB2 is no question a better game.

    However graphically EB2 is quite ugly at the moment, particularly the unit cards. EB1 unit cards were very good. I am not sure why the team could not just use those rather than redoing them. I will never criticise the effort, and likely there are many higher priorities for graphics. At some point it would be nice to remove the current unit cards as they look like bad cartoons.

    On the battle map, the graphics are excellent, especially when you zoom in. My one problem is that it is so difficult to distinguish between your own men and the enemy when units become engaged. You can argue “realism” but for a game I much prefer if you can see what is happening. Also highlighted unit is not obvious, either on the card or the map. Needs to be more obvious. EB1 did both these things better.

  16. #36

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Nad View Post
    My one problem is that it is so difficult to distinguish between your own men and the enemy when units become engaged. You can argue “realism” but for a game I much prefer if you can see what is happening. Also highlighted unit is not obvious, either on the card or the map. Needs to be more obvious. EB1 did both these things better.
    We do argue realism, and that's deliberate.
    It began on seven hills - a historical house-ruled Romani AAR
    Heirs to Lysimachos - a semi-historical Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR
    Philetairos' Gift - a second attempt at an Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  17. #37

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Nad View Post
    My one problem is that it is so difficult to distinguish between your own men and the enemy when units become engaged. You can argue “realism” but for a game I much prefer if you can see what is happening. Also highlighted unit is not obvious, either on the card or the map. Needs to be more obvious. EB1 did both these things better.
    It's a decision of the team and a great one I must say, mostly because it adds a lot of realism and has a less gamey feeling in it. For me, I love it and remember to always play with minimal user interface

  18. #38

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    particularly the unit cards. EB1 unit cards were very good. I am not sure why the team could not just use those rather than redoing them. I will never criticise the effort, and likely there are many higher priorities for graphics. At some point it would be nice to remove the current unit cards as they look like bad cartoons.

    On the battle map, the graphics are excellent, especially when you zoom in.
    Well the problem with using the old ones is that we have a number of units which flat out didn't exist in EB1 since M2TW has a higher unit cap, and we've also tossed out fantasy units/re-did existing ones which had fantasy elements. For consistency's sake it wouldn't be very "flush" to have a bunch of EB1 unit cards alongside new EB2 cards for units that didn't exist in EB1.

    Do you mean the non-info unit cards(small cards)? Because your compliment about excellent battlemap graphics conflicts with your criticism of our current unit info(not small cards) card-making process: they use battlemap screenshot to get close-ups of the units, after all. The info cards(again, non-small cards) I make for the team don't look cartoony at all compared to the actual battlemap models--they look just as the units do on the battlemap.

    Now, there are some unit cards that were made using 3ds Max which look VERY distinct compared to the ones I've personally made. Maybe those are the info cards you're taking offense to? At any rate, the 3ds max style cards allow us to make more realistic poses for the units, such as a unit tossing a javelin or shooting a bow or swinging a sword: all stuff I can't do with my current set-up. So that again might be a choice of realism on the part of the team.

    I'm one of the few working on unit cards ATM, and I have no plans nor do I have any interest in doing a huge unit-card overhaul... It's a side area for me: I'm more interested in trait/ancillary work, not unit-card creation. What little time I can spend on EBII is better spent adding new traits than on unit-card overhauls; I'm also one of our few traiters on the team, and new traits add a lot more to EBII than unit-card improvements ever will IMO. There are still entire factions without factional sets of traits, whereas every unit in the game ATM has unit-cards made for it.
    Last edited by Genghis Skahn; June 14, 2018 at 09:24 AM.

  19. #39
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by kingofportugal View Post
    This confirms my theory. RTW1 is the best Total War ever made. RTW had better aesthetics both in map and the units and the battle all looked better. Still I wont play it because EB2 has Remergent factions, improved diplomacy etc...

    But i do feel nostalgic about EB1, it was really a masterpiece. My hope is that one day creative assembly realizes that both RTW1 and MTW1 only need a few improvements to be better than the latest releases they have made.

    In fact M2TW/Kingdoms engine has almost unlimited easthetic options. Its all about the essence the modders and texturers want to give to their mod.
    RTW has better sieges!
    But about graphics....Not a chance!
    RTW can not hundle high quality graphics nore heavy in detail models:

    Not to mention that units in M2TW can have a huge variety of visual differences and not use a cloned model.
    In the picture above the unit uses 5 helmets, 2 swords, 2 bows, 4 cuirasses, 4 tunic, 5 heads, 4 legs, 4 quivers, 5 sword scabbards etc..CAN you calculate the possible combinations?
    Horses that this unit use , have 8 bodies and 8 suddle,riddle sets.
    That is impossible to RTW.That is why this team and others try to move their RTW games in to this game engine.
    So...enjoy this mod...They have done a great job...
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  20. #40

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    The unit replenishment system of M2TW is far beyond RTW or any later TW games. IMO is one of the main thing that helps immersion as your manpower resources aren't infinite, nor capped at some arbitrary number. Also units in RTW moved and disensaged with crazy speed, like automatons. Most of the things that are worse in M2TW is because they became bugged in the engine transition (like secondary weapon switching), but not because they were removed. Though i admit i prefered the interaction of shields/armour/defense in RTW with attacks.

    Well the unit replenishment in M2TW has no impact on the city population. So basically its infinite replenishment.

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