Great Council - Magnum Concilium

[chesser2538]

William Giffard is found soon enough by his seat. He looks to see Lord d'Avranches approaching him.

My Lord Chester.

Lord Giffard rubs his slightly bearded chin.

Surprising announcement, wouldn't you say? Edgar certainly wants to see Wales tamed by royal authority and incorporated into England.

"Given time I am sure he would see the whole of this island under his rule." With the tact and ambition Edgar had shown so far, Gerald was sure of it. "But for now I will seek to see his proclamation come to fruition. I am sure all the marchers will be answering his call" Gerald gives William a knowing smile.

"Such is the reason this discussion. When last we planned our foray into Wales we were to move as a unified body. Is this still the case?" If the other marches were planning something. Gerald wanted a part of it.

[Lucius Malfoy]

I can only hope that still remains the case. The power has shifted with my nephew being named a Marcher compared to the weaker de Montgomery.

William Giffard looks in the direction of Lord Shrewsbury for a mere second before turning his gaze back to Gerald.

Wales may be divided, but if given the reason, they will certainly form a strong coalition against us. After all, their princes are all practically related as brothers or cousins.

The Norman scratches his beard slightly.

We will need another meeting of the Marcher Lords more than likely to adjust our arrangements and reform into a unified army as before.

[Trot]

Gerold listens to the proclamation, and considers the ramifications. He pauses listening to the other lords speak. He needed time to consider the ramifications of this time he did not have. Openly opposing the king would not be the wisest of actions but perhaps there was opportunity to here. "It is not wise to stake a claim and not enforce it. It undermines the authority of the claim over time," Gerold begins considering. "Mortain made that mistake and it resulted in disaster for him." Gerold paused again letting the other lords here his words. "As such it is wise to name someone to oversee Wales being brought under the English throne." He pauses again Gerold had not spoken this much all session and had asked nothing of the king. "Mar is the most suitable for this task. He did as much for you in Normandy let him do it again in Wales. Give him the authority to negotiate in your name and administrator the land gained and advise you on grants and we will see all of Wales brought in line." He glances at Perceval, Giffard, and Montfort hoping they would speak in favor of this. Mar as heir to Gloucester was a good choice for such a task commanding some of his fathers authority, and the role would allow Gerold himself some influence in who the new Marchers were. Perhaps Waltheof would speak in favor of this as well.

Mar looked excited at the prospect and he glanced at Edgar, "I would be be honored to take on this task." He had been home for less then a year and he already missed the combat and the campaign.

[Gandalfus]

Sire, Lord Waltheof stated he would not dispute any land I hold that was once held by his father. Yet, I have no lands in Yorkshire, where he does have claims.

Osulf nods in gratitude that his son-in-law would not dispute the lands he holds along the border.

I believe it fair that he pursue the claims of his father in Yorkshire.

"Very well. He may have those lands he asked for, and we may consider the matter closed."

The King replied, after a moment of thought.

Gerold listens to the proclamation, and considers the ramifications. He pauses listening to the other lords speak. He needed time to consider the ramifications of this time he did not have. Openly opposing the king would not be the wisest of actions but perhaps there was opportunity to here. "It is not wise to stake a claim and not enforce it. It undermines the authority of the claim over time," Gerold begins considering. "Mortain made that mistake and it resulted in disaster for him." Gerold paused again letting the other lords here his words. "As such it is wise to name someone to oversee Wales being brought under the English throne." He pauses again Gerold had not spoken this much all session and had asked nothing of the king. "Mar is the most suitable for this task. He did as much for you in Normandy let him do it again in Wales. Give him the authority to negotiate in your name and administrator the land gained and advise you on grants and we will see all of Wales brought in line." He glances at Perceval, Giffard, and Montfort hoping they would speak in favor of this. Mar as heir to Gloucester was a good choice for such a task commanding some of his fathers authority, and the role would allow Gerold himself some influence in who the new Marchers were. Perhaps Waltheof would speak in favor of this as well.

Mar looked excited at the prospect and he glanced at Edgar, "I would be be honored to take on this task." He had been home for less then a year and he already missed the combat and the campaign.

"There is no need for that. The marcher earls will be charged with subduing the Welsh and bringing them under my dominion."

Edgar retorted, levelly. Their old purpose was to protect England's border, but their new mandate would be to expand it.

"Perhaps in time, the Earl of Dorset could lead my own expedition beyond Offa's Dyke. But at present his duties lie in seeing that the south coast is defended."

Normandy's rightful duke lurked somewhere across the channel, and other enemies besides. The King did not want to be caught off guard.

[chesser2538]

I can only hope that still remains the case. The power has shifted with my nephew being named a Marcher compared to the weaker de Montgomery.

William Giffard looks in the direction of Lord Shrewsbury for a mere second before turning his gaze back to Gerald.

Wales may be divided, but if given the reason, they will certainly form a strong coalition against us. After all, their princes are all practically related as brothers or cousins.

The Norman scratches his beard slightly.

We will need another meeting of the Marcher Lords more than likely to adjust our arrangements and reform into a unified army as before.

"That would be the sensible course of action, there is strength in unity, and I do believe we will need it if we are to carry out the kings orders." Hopefully this time they would actually make some gains. "I have recently been hearing rumors that Powys is unifying with Gwynedd. If true, we will face a far more dangerous opponent than before." Gerald truly hoped they were just that, rumors, for a unified welsh force could prove quite formidable.

[Pericles of Athens]

Godwin, who had been characteristically silent for the majority of the discussion, spoke up finally on the topic of Wales. “Will the conquest or subjugation of Wales be solely within the realm of the Marcher lords?” He questioned, true that his father had been friends with a specific Welsh King, and a hand in the war may allow him to guide them down a favorable path with Gwynedd and Powys. But Godwin had half a mind to unload his brother in a foreign place, teach him responsibility or mortality.

[Xion]

"That would be the sensible course of action, there is strength in unity, and I do believe we will need it if we are to carry out the kings orders." Hopefully this time they would actually make some gains. "I have recently been hearing rumors that Powys is unifying with Gwynedd. If true, we will face a far more dangerous opponent than before." Gerald truly hoped they were just that, rumors, for a unified welsh force could prove quite formidable.

ap Nwython rises. "Powys and Gwynedd have been unified for the past decade since the invasion by the Godwinsons overthrew Gruffydd ap Llywelyn, first ruled by Rhiwallon ap Cynfyn until his death at Mechain, now ruled by his brother Bleddyn." He pauses for a second. "Gwent and Morgannwg are also unified under their king, Cadwgan ap Meurig."

[chesser2538]

ap Nwython rises. "Powys and Gwynedd have been unified for the past decade since the invasion by the Godwinsons overthrew Gruffydd ap Llywelyn, first ruled by Rhiwallon ap Cynfyn until his death at Mechain, now ruled by his brother Bleddyn." He pauses for a second. "Gwent and Morgannwg are also unified under their king, Cadwgan ap Meurig."

Frowning slightly Gerald considered the info. Being a marcher lord he probably should have known better, but these Welsh and their strange names and customs were hard to keep strait. "Thank you for the clarification." pausing to look the man over "These Welshmen are somewhat of a mystery to me, seldom do they cross the marches except to raid. Any insight is welcome."

[Gandalfus]

Godwin, who had been characteristically silent for the majority of the discussion, spoke up finally on the topic of Wales. “Will the conquest or subjugation of Wales be solely within the realm of the Marcher lords?” He questioned, true that his father had been friends with a specific Welsh King, and a hand in the war may allow him to guide them down a favorable path with Gwynedd and Powys. But Godwin had half a mind to unload his brother in a foreign place, teach him responsibility or mortality.

”Yes, though exceptions may be made.”

Edgar scratched at his jaw, looking around to see if any other would provide input.

[Gandalfus]

Assuming that the silence was approval, the King decided to push on - a wet nurse eventually appeared holding an infant dressed in swaddling clothes. His scrunched up face was asleep, having been coaxed into such a state before his presentation to the realm's lords. The King stood, taking the child gently into his own arms.

"This is my son by Cecilia, Edward Adelin. I present him as my heir, and to that end propose that he is acclaimed as king, to be crowned and anointed when he is able to be so. He will rule alongside me as my junior."

It was a custom that the Frankish kings had often indulged in - crowning their son to ensure that it is more difficult to usurp them. The boy's namesake had damned himself by not doing the same, and thus Harold Godwinson had stepped into the picture with the approval of this same council.

[Mary The Quene]

"Will that power invested in your son merely be ceremonial or will he get to actively carry out duties when he comes out of age?"

Lascy wasn't sure how the saxon nobles would perceive this announcement, after all this was more a thing of the continent, unseen to the history of this island. Lascy himself didn't mind if that is what the king wanted.

[Trot]

Gerold ponders the kings words. An interesting proposal. Not one that he minded per say still he was hesitant glancing at the Saxons. Yes the Kings of the Franks did such but the Kings of France had little real power over their vassals. He looks at the Saxons his brow furrowing none had spoken yet, but he expected objections from them, "Are you sure this is wise Edgar? If god forbid you pass you leave a babe on the throne. Do you have an idea of how the affairs of the realm would be managed in that event."


-----------------------

Mar nods looking at the king somewhat disappointed he would not get to lead a war in Wales. Still he looks at Edgar and says "Long live King Edgar. Long live King Edward."

------

Richard sits among the assembly unsure of what he had to add to this debate.

----------------------

After the lords break to converse among themselves, Lord Montfort seeks out Lord Badger to have a word.

He finds Gerold talking to his youngest son Richard.

[Gandalfus]

"Will that power invested in your son merely be ceremonial or will he get to actively carry out duties when he comes out of age?"

Lascy wasn't sure how the saxon nobles would perceive this announcement, after all this was more a thing of the continent, unseen to the history of this island. Lascy himself didn't mind if that is what the king wanted.

”I will shape my son to rule in my stead once God wills I pass.”

Edgar passed his son back to a wet nurse, the baby stirring fitfully in the throes of sleep. The King remained standing, hands on hips, looking over the assembled peers as a lighthouse does the open sea.

”He will be your king just as I am, though under God a father is the master of his son.”

Gerold ponders the kings words. An interesting proposal. Not one that he minded per say still he was hesitant glancing at the Saxons. Yes the Kings of the Franks did such but the Kings of France had little real power over their vassals. He looks at the Saxons his brow furrowing none had spoken yet, but he expected objections from them, "Are you sure this is wise Edgar? If god forbid you pass you leave a babe on the throne. Do you have an idea of how the affairs of the realm would be managed in that event."


-----------------------

Mar nods looking at the king somewhat disappointed he would not get to lead a war in Wales. Still he looks at Edgar and says "Long live King Edgar. Long live King Edward."

------

Richard sits among the assembly unsure of what he had to add to this debate.

----------------------



He finds Gerold talking to his youngest son Richard.

”I would hope my son would be named king regardless of my time of death. Would your son not follow you should, of God wills, you pass on? ”

The King queried, folding his arms across his chest.

”The succession will be easier with a king already having been chosen. There will be no dispute, as with my blessed uncle. No war, no pretenders.”

[Trot]

"Of course he will follow you Edgar. Have I ever given you a reason to doubt me?" He said dropping the formality a bit. "However a babe can not rule unaided. Do you have a provision in place in that eventuality. Even a crowned babe could see pretenders rise up. Ambitious men will not be stopped because a crown is on the head of another. It did not stop William."

[Xion]

"Of course he will follow you Edgar. Have I ever given you a reason to doubt me?" He said dropping the formality a bit. "However a babe can not rule unaided. Do you have a provision in place in that eventuality. Even a crowned babe could see pretenders rise up. Ambitious men will not be stopped because a crown is on the head of another. It did not stop William."

"Indeed." de Tosny says, agreeing with Gerold. "If the succession is to be easier with an anointed king who has experience ruling alongside his father, then there should be some measure in place to ensure there is a strong regency to ensure no pretenders arise to threaten the new king, if god forbid a regency is ever required." de Tosny did not say it, but figured it may be implied he was referring to the sons of the Conqueror.
-------
ap Nwython for the moment remains silent, his concerns for the moment with the proposal having been asked by de Lascy and the Badger.
----

[Gandalfus]

“England and my other domains shall be left in the hands of a council should such an eventuality come to pass, to govern until my son is prepared for his kingship.”

The King supposed that this was the most logical course of action. As had always been done, the rulership of the kingdom would fall into the hands of the nobles. It was a morbid feeling to plan for one’s death, but considering all eventualities was in the nature of planning for succession.

[Barry Goldwater]

"Your Grace, is this truly necessary?" Edmund asked, once he found an opening to do so. It was not hard, as only a few others seemed to have anything to say on the matter. "Since your ancestor King Alfred, barring extreme circumstances, the Witan has never failed to elect a previous King's designated heir as their successor. Never before was the successor crowned as a co-king, nor had it ever been a necessary step." The only two cases where that tradition had failed to hold true were the assumption of the Crown of England by the Knytlings, who were after all foreign conquerors, and then by his own father and the Bastard of Normandy, which came down in part due to Edward the Confessor failing to officially name Edgar his heir after the death of Edward the Exile.

"Moreover..." The Godwining earl coughed lightly into one hand. "Forgive me for dredging up the unfortunate memory, sire, but England has only ever had two kings once, and it did not end well." The only English precedent for what Edgar was suggesting was Edmund Ironside and Canute of the Danes agreeing to divide England between themselves after Assandun, and that had ended extremely poorly for the Cerdicings.

Arundel and Nottingham had nothing to say on this matter. Being Normans, they were used to the continental custom of designating co-kings.

[Lucius Malfoy]

"That would be the sensible course of action, there is strength in unity, and I do believe we will need it if we are to carry out the kings orders." Hopefully this time they would actually make some gains. "I have recently been hearing rumors that Powys is unifying with Gwynedd. If true, we will face a far more dangerous opponent than before." Gerald truly hoped they were just that, rumors, for a unified welsh force could prove quite formidable.

That is why we must hit the southern princes first. The weaker ones must be taken in order to gain a foothold. Once we are in Wales, it will be harder to dislodge us.

Assuming that the silence was approval, the King decided to push on - a wet nurse eventually appeared holding an infant dressed in swaddling clothes. His scrunched up face was asleep, having been coaxed into such a state before his presentation to the realm's lords. The King stood, taking the child gently into his own arms.

"This is my son by Cecilia, Edward Adelin. I present him as my heir, and to that end propose that he is acclaimed as king, to be crowned and anointed when he is able to be so. He will rule alongside me as my junior."

It was a custom that the Frankish kings had often indulged in - crowning their son to ensure that it is more difficult to usurp them. The boy's namesake had damned himself by not doing the same, and thus Harold Godwinson had stepped into the picture with the approval of this same council.

Osulf ponders on the notion for a moment. Though it was known that there was a time that co-kings ruled England, and it didn't end well, it was still a good measure. To ensure that the Crown of England passed onto the son of Edgar and that the future Edward II was ready to become king. Still though, this sounded more like the adoption of a Frankish tradition, something done before.

Sire, is it wise to do this? I have to agree with the statement of Lord Edmund on the matter of co-rulership. It did not end well after all. It only ended in escalating the violence.

=======================================

William Giffard had known of the ancient Merovingian and rulers of the Karling dynasty who practiced this method more than often. It was a sound measure, but could present problems if Edward ever became too ambitious for his father to control. Edgar certainly had plans to ensure that didn't happen, but Gods will could never be understood by the designs of Man. Lord Hereford had no questions though as others were presenting the same ones in his mind.

[Pericles of Athens]

“The authority of the Witan is a long standing tradition of your people.” Waltheof spoke up. “One that goes back even before their presence on this island. The election shows trust in ones Earls and other vassals. With all the imported practices surly we can keep this most honor council alive?” He did not expect the Normans to understand the importance of ushering in a King through a vote of equals, even if that vote was nearly always a merely ceremonial gesture.
___________

Godwin cleared his throat before speaking. “If I may, I do believe the rise of my late father was an exception to the rule.” He said frankly. “The Witan has served England well for many years. And it provides obvious avenues for the rise of new kings, in the unlikely circumstance that your line is snuffed out...” He added the last bit wearily.

[Xion]

Cadoc thinks over the proposal and while he does nod his head in agreement with the statements about co-kingship, as two earls already spoke about the matter, the Earl of Cornwall instead watches the king to see his reaction.