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Thread: Steppe Archery and or Archery question about scythians

  1. #1

    Default Steppe Archery and or Archery question about scythians

    Is there any historical document or reference to what weight was on the bows of the saka, or pahlavians? 45 lb draw weight? it is said that the Native americans did not often go above 45 lb bows, as that was enough to kill deer, or elk. I would love to know so i can buy another bow that the scythians would have used.

    This article at the following URL says they would not have been over 30 lbs. http[:]//www[.]atarn[.]org/chinese/Yanghai/Scythian_bow_ATARN.pdf

    I was really considering buying me one of these. the Scythian version to be precise. I know its a ridiculous price, but i really want an authentic Scythian bow to hunt with. EB 1 made me fall in love with steppe culture, and the awesome nomadic music. SO i started picking up archery and am getting quite good at it. Also can we please make Baktria have Stone roads/ be a major city at the start of the map? I think it severely limits saka players to not have a big city with a stone roads. I even give the baktrian faction lots of money and do process_cq cheat for them but they NEVER build a paved road.

    http://www.salukibow.com/horn-bows/

  2. #2

    Default Re: Steppe Archery and or Archery question about scythians

    Quote Originally Posted by moisesjns View Post
    I even give the baktrian faction lots of money and do process_cq cheat for them but they NEVER build a paved road.
    It's no use. The AI will always give precedence to units over buildings, regardless of the amount of money at its disposal.

    As for the bows, if you want to look at alternatives, Grozer makes Scythian bows for nearly half that price. He's a well-known bowmaker, although I can't comment on the quality.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Steppe Archery and or Archery question about scythians

    Quote Originally Posted by Weltschmerz View Post
    It's no use. The AI will always give precedence to units over buildings, regardless of the amount of money at its disposal.

    As for the bows, if you want to look at alternatives, Grozer makes Scythian bows for nearly half that price. He's a well-known bowmaker, although I can't comment on the quality.
    Do you know what sort of lb the scythians used? 45 lbs? 50 lbs? i imagine with so much shooting going on during a battle, they would probably have gone for something like a 45. but i dont really know.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Steppe Archery and or Archery question about scythians

    From what i read in http://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai..._bow_ATARN.pdf i got the impression that the draw weight was far greater:
    "Physical characteristics

    draw weight @ 28in: 120lb
    mass of bow: 540 grams

    length of bow: 131cm between the nocks (the horn projections would add a few

    centimeters to the length)
    length of string: 114cm, brace height: 18cm"

    "It would be reasonable to estimate the draw weight range of
    Scythian bows to be from 80lb to 140lb, which falls close to a similar estimate for other composites"

    But maybe i missed something? I find 70-80 lbs comfortable but it is all about what the body is used to..




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  5. #5

    Default Re: Steppe Archery and or Archery question about scythians

    Quote Originally Posted by Outrider View Post
    From what i read in http://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai..._bow_ATARN.pdf i got the impression that the draw weight was far greater:
    "Physical characteristics:

    draw weight @ 28in: 120lb

    "It would be reasonable to estimate the draw weight range of Scythian bows to be from 80lb to 140lb, which falls close to a similar estimate for other composites"

    But maybe i missed something? I find 70-80 lbs comfortable but it is all about what the body is used to..

    So I have never used a composite bow like this (I have much experience with standard recurve and longbows though), but that weight sounds ridiculous! The highest I have ever shot is 50 lbs, and the bow I used for years was 40 lbs, as that was the highest weight I could comfortably shoot for a roughly one hour practice session. Are the mechanics of the draw totally different, or am I just a total weakling?! Also, with such a heavy draw, it seems that an archer would not be able to shoot for very long, making them less effective soldiers. Hmm...

    (note: I did read the attached article. I am not questioning the facts, just wondering how they could be true; i.e. I would like a bit of clarification and teasing out.)
    Wood's World of Words | Kilo11's Library


  6. #6

    Default Re: Steppe Archery and or Archery question about scythians

    I saw the same passage. i shoot a 55 lb bow, and in the hot weather where i live (70-80f) it would not be easy to shoot for more than an hr out in that weather with a bow. It gets you thirsty and tired. The steppes are even hotter! and even colder during the winter. And people are out there living life and just like you and me i doubt they want to over-tire themselves to get a meal. When you will have to do it again over and over with a 120 lb bow. I really want to buy one just to see how it works in real life. maybe scythian bows are shorter its easier to pull?

    I shoot a 55 lb traditional bow with no riser, i shoot off my hand it is tiring. I also shoot a 40 lb shortbow which is a lot easier to shoot for multiple hours.

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    Default Re: Steppe Archery and or Archery question about scythians

    I used to shoot 90-100lbs (started shooting 50lbs) but since I donīt train very often 70-80lbs suits me better. I use traditional horn bows (composite) and longbows, and a 70lbs horn bow feels like a 80+ longbow.

    I think 50-60 is fine for hunting but find it hard to believe that anything below 65-70lbs could be effective against armoured opponents...
    True friends stab you in the front


  8. #8

    Default Re: Steppe Archery and or Archery question about scythians

    How long and accurately can you shoot with such high draw weights? I have drawn bows up to 80 lbs before, but could not hold the full extension long enough to aim properly and it was very wobbly. Also, I could not have shot that more than a dozen or so times. Certainly not for an hour or more. I just find it somewhat hard to believe that for a full battle (which could potentially last a while) someone would be using a bow with such a high draw weight.

    Question: Is it easier to draw composites with higher draw weights simply because the draw length is so much shorter? I mean, I am a pretty short guy so my (modern recurve) bow was shorter and my draw was likewise shorter, but I'd estimate I was still drawing back about 36-40 inches, whereas in the attached article it gives a draw length of 28 inches.
    Wood's World of Words | Kilo11's Library


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    Default Re: Steppe Archery and or Archery question about scythians

    I shoot for about an hour but I shoot instinctivly so I dontīt hold full draw more than a second... but after an hour you can really feel that your arms and back have been working out... I donīt think archers would shoot non stop for hour after hour even if the battles could last ages ... but I agree that 120lbs seems excessive. Around 90lbs I think is more efficient in the long run but many archers would have more than one bow (the mongols for example had a heavy bow - 100+lbs and a lighter one - perhaps 70-80lbs)

    28inches is just the standard length to measure the draw-weight, most of my composite bows have a max draw lengh of 32-33 inches (34 is all the way back to the ear unless you are very very tall...) so they have in no way a shorter draw length compared to letīs say longbows. How can you manage such a draw length? I am 184cm tall and when I draw back to the corner of my mouth itīs around 31inches..
    True friends stab you in the front


  10. #10

    Default Re: Steppe Archery and or Archery question about scythians

    I might have overestimated my draw length, as I was just eyeballing the distance when I'm at full extension. But if you say the composites are 32-33, then I guess the draw lengths are at the very least comparable, and wouldn't make such a difference.

    I think what I find so shocking about the draw weight of 70-110 lbs is that my little brother has a modern compound bow (that silly thing that lets off all the weight right at the end so he can sit all day with a drawn string and not be a real bowman at all) and the draw weight of that was 80-100 if I remember correctly, and when I had been regularly practicing with my recurve (40 lbs draw, shooting for one hour sesssions three days a week) I could only just pull back the string on his. I can't imagine ever being able to draw that in a controlled fashion and actually hit anything, at least not more than a couple times.

    I think the long and the short of it is that I need to get myself a new bow and see what's what. I haven't been out in a long time, and could use a good bow refresher
    Wood's World of Words | Kilo11's Library


  11. #11

    Default Re: Steppe Archery and or Archery question about scythians

    Well what im getting from all this. Is Steppe archers probably had something like the Romans with not tiring units (that thing from rome whhere they hold onto each other) But with Eagles? with a banner or sorts? I remember EB 1 had a anchilary about Eagle hunters or something. That would be so cool to see in game... it can be like rome total war barbaric units hahhaha.

    I mean shooting outside for an hour or two in the sun at 90 degrees f. Shooting would get you tired. especially constantly riding the horse and worrying about archers. Its a shame we will never get to truly see the way units should be represented. (eg skirmishers cant sneak around everywhere, so can only be used at start of battle or as a flanking force.) you can never truly pull ambushes with these units the way they would have fought in real life. + i think the average Saka horse archer would not be able to afford a high pound bow? maybe too expensive, so 60-70 is cheaper and more affordable.

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