Erdogan-NATO members are not strong enough to stand up to Turkey

[ioannis76]

So, after Erdogan's chief advisor Bulut, who declared that "not the 6th fleet, not the 66th fleet is strong enough to deterTurkey"

http://m.naftemporiki.gr/story/13277...l-deter-turkey

We have "da man" himself, taking it one step further, and declaring that NATO members are not powerful enough to stand up to Turkey.

https://ahvalnews.com/turkey/nato-me...turkey-erdogan

NATO members are not powerful enough to stand up to Turkey - Erdogan

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, in a speech to crowd in south city of Mersin, slammed fellow NATO members, saying that "if NATO members were strong enough in Syria, they would have stood up to us openly and clearly. But they do not have the cheek, and hence Turkey is standing up."

Do you believe that the Turkish attitude is a regression to nazi era politics (making constant references to military power, rather than international law)? Bear in mind, while answering this, that Erdogan, for the first time, saluted using the Grey Wolf sign, rather than the rabia gesture:
https://ahvalnews.com/recep-tayyip-e...olf-sign-rally

For those who don't know, the Grey Wolves is a neo-fascist organisation, with deep ties with the Turkish State, averitable death squad, whose biggest murderous exploit was the murder of voer 100 Alevites in December '78. Since then, this pan-Turcic movement expanded its tentacles from former soviet states, to Germany and Sweden, where it is responsible for various criminal activities. In fact, "according to Neues Deutschland the Grey Wolves are the largest far-right organization in Germany by membership as of 2013".

Is Turkey, therefore, to be taken as a serious threat to world stability, particularly given the newly-formed alliance with Russia as well as the invasion and apparent expansion to foreign countries such as Cyprus, Syria or Iraq, and what is the West to do? Or should the West look the other way due to Turkey's strategic geographical location? Should land be taken from Turkey (such as the Bosphorus straits) and be given to international management?

[Vanoi]

Just wait for Afrin to be over and see if Erdogan goes for Manbij.

[Heathen Hammer]

I wonder if Erdogan would attack US forces directly. When Russia bombed the living crap out of CIA terrorist training camp, Obama backed down, rolled over and did nothing. Erdogan might think Trump would act the same way.

[Nebaki]

Erdogan might think Trump would act the same way.

Or did they have already an arrangement long time ago?

[ioannis76]

It looks like Erdogan is counting on Russia. Putin is his greatest fan for his own purposes, quite evidently, to remove Turkey from NATO and cause a dent (more than a dent, really break in half), all the south east area of NATO. For this purpose, I am not sure if Turkey would actually hesitate to bomb US troops. I don't think that Putin's declaration that he would use nukes against anyone nuking (or was it attacking even with conventional weapons) one of his allies is a mere coincidence.
The other option would be to attack the Greek army, which would still be an attack on NATO, but not on the US. In that case, he would look for US reactions. If the US doesn't do anything (which it probably would, they would more than likely push the Greek side to give Turkey something, in order to, even temporarily calm the situation), then he would push harder.
Bullies always push on as long as they meet no resistance.

[Kyriakos]

Lol, Erdogan is crazy - and by now so is Turkey. I think Turkey should be thrown out of Nato asap.

[dogukan]

I don't think attacking Greece is a possibility.
But suprisingly, there seems to be a shift in the alliance that rules the country.
Erdoğan isn't ruling with Ak Party anymore.

Turkey is now seriously an alliance of Erdoğanist islamo-nationalists, MHP graywolves have a lot of power especially in security forces and internal ministry and the Vatan Party which is a eurasianist, anti-western, Kemalist, nationalist faction strong with the seculars are also very influential.

Its a very odd mixture of extreme nationalist alliance. And it is reflecting in every part of Turkish society at this ponit from the extreme repression of left to TV shows and ideologies that are dominating the cultural realm. The nationalists seem to have put a bit of a limitation to Erdoğan's islamism in return for their support.
Turkey is heading for a full on Russian model.

[ioannis76]

I don't think attacking Greece is a possibility.
But suprisingly, there seems to be a shift in the alliance that rules the country.
Erdoğan isn't ruling with Ak Party anymore.

Turkey is now seriously an alliance of Erdoğanist islamo-nationalists, MHP graywolves have a lot of power especially in security forces and internal ministry and the Vatan Party which is a eurasianist, anti-western, Kemalist, nationalist faction strong with the seculars are also very influential.

Its a very odd mixture of extreme nationalist alliance. And it is reflecting in every part of Turkish society at this ponit from the extreme repression of left to TV shows and ideologies that are dominating the cultural realm. The nationalists seem to have put a bit of a limitation to Erdoğan's islamism in return for their support.
Turkey is heading for a full on Russian model.

Possible, but difficult to predict. The west appears to be numbed by all this, because it seems to have evolved too quickly, and because an open confrontation with Turkey would mean that anti-western sentiment would only strengthen, resulting to the loss of a strategically placed country. I believe that this is the most important point (the strategic position of Turkey) that holds the west from taking action. It's interesting, Germany didn't have that going for it back in WW2, it was the military might of Germany (and its allies) that made everyone so reluctant to engage.

[Kyriakos]

^Iraq supposedly at a time (just before it suddenly lost favour with the US) had "the fourth largest army". In reality, it was ruined rather quickly.
Maybe this time instead of Kuwait we will have Kurdwait

[Exarch]

Erdog is right; turks are supposed to form the large cannon fodder of the NATO white supremacist alliance; they're only 'honorary whites' so their sacrifices won't be as bad as if it were a pure, nordic 100% bavarian phenotypic stock dying like Finland.

Since this is how NATO is designed, the turks have been getting uppity and trying to bully other NATO members; either the godfater USA has to pull turks in line or watch NATO fall apart.

[Kyriakos]

Erdog is right; turks are supposed to form the large cannon fodder of the NATO white supremacist alliance; they're only 'honorary whites' so their sacrifices won't be as bad as if it were a pure, nordic 100% bavarian phenotypic stock dying like Finland.

Since this is how NATO is designed, the turks have been getting uppity and trying to bully other NATO members; either the godfater USA has to pull turks in line or watch NATO fall apart.

Hm, aren't fin people asian?
I don't think this is the issue here; though in turkish propaganda it could be used, but it is difficult to say that 'europeans are fascist and don't want us' when your country has a deep state tied to fascism like the 'Gray Wolves' party which is Erdogan's partner anyway. Panturanism-level insanity

[Chivalry]

Greek propaganda at it's best =D

The whole concept of his speech is different than what you try to make it seem to be. I will translate the speech myself for you:

"If there is any country in the world, which really cares about human rights, really and sincerely stands against terrorism, has to side with Turkey.

I'am calling you, NATO, where are you? We are having a struggle here, where are you (why are you not with us?)? Isn't Turkey a NATO country?

You were there when it was Afghanistan, but why are you not now in Syria? "

"Members of NATO would stand against us if they had the power, this is very clear; but they cannot dare that because Turkey is strong."

"To Afghanistan, Somalia, Balkans; you called us, and we came. Now we are calling you, but you are not helping. Why are you not helping? Turkey has 911 kilometer border with Syria, we are threatened, but you are not coming (helping).

"Be fair NATO. Fulfill your role."



I can clearly say that his words are not a threat. He is just complaining about NATO being hypocrite.

[Kyriakos]

Greek propaganda at it's best =D

The whole concept of his speech is different than what you try to make it seem to be. I will translate the speech myself for you:

"If there is any country in the world, which really cares about human rights, really and sincerely stands against terrorism, has to side with Turkey.

I'am calling you, NATO, where are you? We are having a struggle here, where are you (why are you not with us?)? Isn't Turkey a NATO country?

You were there when it was Afghanistan, but why are you not now in Syria? "

"Members of NATO would stand against us if they had the power, this is very clear; but they cannot dare that because Turkey is strong."

"To Afghanistan, Somalia, Balkans; you called us, and we came. Now we are calling you, but you are not helping. Why are you not helping? Turkey has 911 kilometer border with Syria, we are threatened, but you are not coming (helping).

"Be fair NATO. Fulfill your role."



I can clearly say that his words are not a threat. He is just complaining about NATO being hypocrite.

Just colouring in red the only sentence you posted which is even tied to the topic. Not sure why you inserted all the other stuff; no one cares about Erdo whining, but watch what will happen if he sends his little fleet to try to pester Exxon and the 6th US fleet. I suppose Erdo didn't mean Exxon drilling in Cyprus though, right?

Erdogan shouldn't worry or whine, Nato days for Turkey look to be nearing an end. Afterall, Turkey is 'stronk', doesn't need Nato.

[mongrel]

Mirth aside, it looks like yet another misleading OP.

[Exarch]

Hm, aren't fin people asian?

technically we're all asian since homo sapiens precedents evolved in asia before moving to africa; if you're referring to the finno-ugric families yes i suppose finnish people are asian and we should tell the white nationalists that since they lionise finnish people as being aryans.

I don't think this is the issue here; though in turkish propaganda it could be used, but it is difficult to say that 'europeans are fascist and don't want us' when your country has a deep state tied to fascism like the 'Gray Wolves' party which is Erdogan's partner anyway. Panturanism-level insanity

turks are getting uppity, they must be reminded time and time again in history that they were and always were cannon fodder and vassals of greater powers. THat little bleep in time where they were ottomons was an accident of history which was corrected. It appears they need further correction.

As i've said before, the head of NATO-the Americans- need to control their vassal turkey and the fact that they can't or won't further legitimizes their role as head of the pan white coalition, NATO.

[Ziltoid]

Just wait for Afrin to be over and see if Erdogan goes for Manbij.

^This. What happens after Afrin and how far Erdogan is willing to push rather than just talk tough, will be all that matters. Erdogan is known for barking a lot and giving out flamboyant statements kinda like Putin to appeal for ultra-nationalistic and overly patriotic feelings. But that seems to be aimed more as a show to get popularity and propaganda for domestic purposes to please masses by this kind of populistic "tough guy" behaviour. What actually gets done internationally is often quite different altogether.

technically we're all asian since homo sapiens precedents evolved in asia before moving to africa; if you're referring to the finno-ugric families yes i suppose finnish people are asian and we should tell the white nationalists that since they lionise finnish people as being aryans.

Dunno what this sort of off-topic matter does here, but perhaps atleast read wikipedia on the matter to educate yourself first on basics.

Here is some quora.com quote on the matter:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The idea of Finns as east Asian looking comes from hundred year old racial theories, where Finns were seen as "non-white" and "mongoloid" as to prove they are inferior to "white" Europeans. This idea was then propagated by Western Europeans seeking to prove their supermacy. Thea idea of Finns as "mongoloid" partly originated from Finns having a language unrelated to Indo-European. The hundred year old incorrect racial stereotype still exists, and has moved on to be an internet meme joke, contributing to google searches you make.

When it comes to "Asian eyes", or eyes with epicanthic fold, skin from upper eyelid that covers the inner corner of eye, they are not restricted to Asians. They are a feature which pop up all over the world. For example several African populations have epicanthic folds without being Asian. It is common to children of any race to have varying degree of epicanthic folds as a child, and most lose it when they grow up. Frankly, the reason why some populations in the world have them and some do not is not known, but in Finland they are not common.

If you see what average Finns look like, like average woman (top row, second) here:


Or average Finnish man here:


They look like average Northern Europeans.

Now, Finns do commonly have N1-haplogroup which is common in Northern Eurasia, also with people who "look east Asian". But N1-haplogroup is so old (over 10 000 years) that we have no information what kind of people it originated from. The geographical origin does not tell us much. For example the haplogroup K2 likely originates from Southeast Asia. Descendant of that haplogroup is R-haplogroup, which is the dominant haplogroup in Europe. Still, Europeans are characterized by their lack of epicanthic folds, even though their dominant haplogroup ancestor likely originates from Southeast Asia.

Likewise language isn't that good indicator either. Mexicans, Indians, Iranians, Greek, Irish and Norwegians all speak related Indo-European languages, but their related language is not an indication of how related these people are. For Finns the most related people after Estonians are Swedes instead of Uralic speaking Sami people.

Hm, aren't fin people asian?

Also just going by something as simple as amount of blonde hair or blue eyes (not very asian features?) kinda shows of opposite of asian looks in Finland. According to those maps you could conclude Finland is #1 in world in blue eyed blondes (im one too). And id certainly feel it bit amusing if someone suddenly told me im asian instead of caucasian. Also please don't call us fin people with just one N, makes it sound like we live underwater like dolphins or sharks like in this conspiracy theory where Finland does not exist and its just all ocean.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As to the topic of being "true aryan" and other such 1920s-1940s racial hygiene teachings, some things are best left behind as unscientific nonsense that were used to justify very questionable agendas and policies in past.



Also obligatory:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

fin people:

[PointOfViewGun]

Erdoğan's actual words, in Turkish:

Ey NATO neredesin? Bu kadar mücadele veriyoruz. Türkiye NATO'nun üyesi değil mi? Neredesin? Afganistan'da hemen NATO üyesi ülkeleri oraya davet ettin, peki Suriye'de? Suriye'de NATO üyesi olan ülkeler... Aslında kudretleri yetse kalkacaklar onlar açık net karşımıza dikilecekler fakat Türkiye'nin dik durduğunu görünce buna cüret edemiyorlar. Ama bizim isteğimiz şuydu, Afganistan'a çağırdın geldik, Somali'ye çağırdın geldik, Balkanlara çağırdın geldik, şimdi de ben çağırıyorum, hadi bakalım Suriye'ye gel. Niye gelmiyorsun?

In English:

NATO, where are you? We are putting up a fight this much. Is Turkey not a NATO member? Where are you? In Afghanistan, you called on NATO members there, but Syria? NATO members in Syria... Actually, if they had enough might they would get up and stand against us openly, but since they see Turkey standing firm they don't dare to. But, what we wanted was this, you called us on in Afghanistan, we came, you called us on in Somali, we came, you called us on Balkans, now I'm calling you on, here we go, come to Syria. Why don't you come?

The translation used in the opening post seems to provide a different meaning.

[Exarch]

Erdogan was well within his rights to invoke Article V when CIA backed terrorists attempted to mount a coup, similar to the way the US invoked Article V after 9/11. The fact that he didn't tells us one of two things:

1) Erdogan is a weak leader who hasn't got the self respect to either to himself or to Turkey, to defend Turkey when its very social fabric is on the line and chaos was imminent.

2) NATO is a feudal entity where all but the Anglos are vassals in a racial hierarchy with Turks forming the majority of spear carriers and frontline toops at the bottom.

[ioannis76]

The translation used in the opening post seems to provide a different meaning.

Actually, the meaning that you and chivalry provide is "worse" than the translation of the OP, because in the OP Erdogan seems to be making a vague and general reference to the power of NATO, but in your translations he seems to be talking about Syria (and apparently Afrin), issuing a direct challenge by pretty much saying "not only are you not helping us, but if you could stop us in Afrin, you would (but you can't because "Turkey stronk")".

Erdogan shouldn't worry or whine, Nato days for Turkey look to be nearing an end.

I am not sure about that. NATO will not let Turkey leave, because its positin is far too important. And in order to keep Turkey, NATO just might give it something in another area, that is, the Aegean. Greece is the most "weak" link, ie, the one more likely to yield to pressure, so that's where they will push. Greece will make the sacrifices to "appease" Erdogan and keep him in NATO, it seems.

[PointOfViewGun]

Actually, the meaning that you and chivalry provide is "worse" than the translation of the OP, because in the OP Erdogan seems to be making a vague and general reference to the power of NATO, but in your translations he seems to be talking about Syria (and apparently Afrin), issuing a direct challenge by pretty much saying "not only are you not helping us, but if you could stop us in Afrin, you would (but you can't because "Turkey stronk")".

Not really. The real translation shows a differing principle, not some military conflict.