Fake News Clarification: Volume One

[Love Mountain]

Oh boo. Just admit it, you're for open borders. You don't care about immigration at all, you think anyone who arrives here should be given any benefit a citizen is permitted.

It's amazing that you're still incapable of grasping my argument despite it literally being spelled out for you.

My argument is stupid. Let's go ahead and go with that. I am a stupid ing moron, racist republican. We have established that. Ok?

So someone enters this country illegally: what should we do next? Let's assume they send their kids to public schools, and they apply to food stamps, medicaid, and other public programs. What now? How does the country benefit from them being here?

They would naturally get denied for food stamps, medicaid, and most federal public programs. The only federal programs they are eligible for, would be those that cover populations that are at very high-risk. Otherwise if local state/city governments decide to offer assistance to illegal immigrants, that's entirely their business. State's rights. We should encourage illegal immigrants to document themselves without penalty. There are even practical benefits, we could share medical or income information with their home governments. Offer them ways to become legal residents or citizens through a naturalization process. Offer them better protection from predatory employers through employee visas, etc. There are a ton of things we can do without "opening the border". The key here is to stop penalizing people for what is at its most basic level, a victimless crime. This'll encourage cooperation with authorities, documentation of people who enter the country, disincentivize people from engaging in criminal activity to get across the border. A large part of the reason why people enter the country illegally, is because they cannot enter the country legally, or find a way to stay here legally.

[NorseThing]

@Sukiyama: Most federal aid programs flow through State based programs. About half the states do not even look at immigrant status (California is an obvious example) let alone illegal immigrant status before dispensing benefits based on need and specially need for assistance for children.

This may be of interest: https://immigrationforum.org/article...blic-benefits/

[Pontifex Maximus]

The fact you think illegal immigration is a victimless crime is the single most asinine argument I've ever heard uttered here. I cannot debate someone who is arguing in bad faith. That is the very essence of being brainwashed by the fake news.

In other news, it has been a banner 72 hours for fake news, with no fewer than three major news stories from our leftist outlets being proven to be complete fabrications and misrepresentations. The fact anyone could fall for it is testament to the fact we are living out the Idiocracy.

[NorseThing]

Ponti -- who are your comments directed to? If you are referring to the link I posted for Suki's benefit, I know this is a project tht came out of the Southern Poverty Law Law Center.

I have never believed illegal immigration to be a victim-less crime. If anything there are literally multiple victims when ever a migrant enters illegally and takes a job, does not pay their full freight as an out in the open person, and so on. I have a real problem with any crime being described as lacking victims. Even the illegal immigrant is probably a victim at some point.

[Pontifex Maximus]

The first half is directed towards Sukiyama's intellectually bankrupt position, the later half refers to the absolutely hilarious, fake news that have been advanced by our fake media.

[PointOfViewGun]

In other news, it has been a banner 72 hours for fake news, with no fewer than three major news stories from our leftist outlets being proven to be complete fabrications and misrepresentations. The fact anyone could fall for it is testament to the fact we are living out the Idiocracy.

News stories such as?

[Love Mountain]

@Sukiyama: Most federal aid programs flow through State based programs. About half the states do not even look at immigrant status (California is an obvious example) let alone illegal immigrant status before dispensing benefits based on need and specially need for assistance for children.

This may be of interest: https://immigrationforum.org/article...blic-benefits/

Thank you for pointing this out Norse. While I know that Illegal immigrants do have access to many benefits, they do not have access to the full range of benefits that American citizens do. Your comment did spark an interest and I've read through the link you posted. Unfortunately I did not find a lot of information there that would back up your assertion. Could you perhaps offer something a little more specific that would point to, as you said,

" Most federal aid programs flow through State based programs. About half the states do not even look at immigrant status (California is an obvious example) let alone illegal immigrant status before dispensing benefits based on need and specially need for assistance for children."

I'd be interested in finding out more about it and to determine the extent of this issue.

[Pontifex Maximus]

News stories such as?

The Ben Shapiro fake news on baby Hitler, the fake news over the Covington high school kids, and the fake news over the Cohen Russia gate BS which was immediately disproved by the Mueller investigation.

The democrap party is in full retreat. The media has been exposed as a left wing mouthpiece, this is a cultural rout. You must either accept the repute by the Mueller investigation in the hopes that it yields impeachable results or you must rebuke the fake news buzzfeed in the hopes that more intelligent investigators are able to reach the result the morons at buzzfeed reached by lying. Ultimately your position is completely laughable and stupid, but persist if you want I suppose.

You could actually save some face by admitting to all this, but I know you won't. You'll double down thank god, and double down on your own stupid political position.

[PointOfViewGun]

The Ben Shapiro fake news on baby Hitler, the fake news over the Covington high school kids, and the fake news over the Cohen Russia gate BS which was immediately disproved by the Mueller investigation.
The democrap party is in full retreat. The media has been exposed as a left wing mouthpiece, this is a cultural rout. You must either accept the repute by the Mueller investigation in the hopes that it yields impeachable results or you must rebuke the fake news buzzfeed in the hopes that more intelligent investigators are able to reach the result the morons at buzzfeed reached by lying. Ultimately your position is completely laughable and stupid, but persist if you want I suppose.
You could actually save some face by admitting to all this, but I know you won't. You'll double down thank god, and double down on your own stupid political position.

So, what's stopping you from linking to examples of actual news articles? You are making vague referencing while making sweeping claims. It is, however, telling that your go to response to someone only asking for substance is to attack them like this. You guess that I'll double down on my political position, whatever that is, while providing a very clear example of someone doubling down on theirs, which is quite ironic. So, yeah, do provide actual examples, as in links to articles from mainstream media websites, to substantiate your claims so that we don't have to base our discussion on guesses. One article per example should suffice.

[Pontifex Maximus]

So, what's stopping you from linking to examples of actual news articles? You are making vague referencing while making sweeping claims. It is, however, telling that your go to response to someone only asking for substance is to attack them like this. You guess that I'll double down on my political position, whatever that is, while providing a very clear example of someone doubling down on theirs, which is quite ironic. So, yeah, do provide actual examples, as in links to articles from mainstream media websites, to substantiate your claims so that we don't have to base our discussion on guesses. One article per example should suffice.

Oh my god, are you satisfied? Do you actually just ignore all news that doesn't fit your narrative? Your demands to be provided mainstream media sources, which have been proven to be liars and subject to libel lawsuits as a result of these stories, is laughable. The whole thrust of my argument is that the msm are full of moron, radical reporters doing whatever they can do to push a leftist agenda, which they themselves have admitted to on their own programs, though under the guise of "we are afraid this is how it will be perceived but in spite of us being wrong and indicting teenagers who did nothing but were wearing maga hats trust us we are still respectable." It's pathetic. Even moderate democrats are calling them out. Its the Kavanaugh hearings weaponized.

Shapiro - I watched his full episode live. The fake news media took a clip out of context in order to smear him. It was pathetic.

Maga hat kid - see above, another out of context clip meant to fit the fake news narrative. Which resulted in a full fledged Counterfiet News Network retreat. And that is from a liberal. Here's some more if you're unconvinced.

fake news Cohen story. Need I say more? Your savior Meuller actually made his first public comment in over a year discrediting the buzzfeed story which according to the entire left "If true will lead to immediate impeachment proceedings" line of reasoning

All this took me about five minutes to compile and if you dare to reply to this post without reading and listening to all these sources then I won't waste my time responding to you.

Absolutely pathetic. I look forward to viewing all your sources which will not only refute mine, but prove all the counterpoints true. Somehow I highly doubt you'll be able to do that, especially without subpoena power.

[NorseThing]

Thank you for pointing this out Norse. While I know that Illegal immigrants do have access to many benefits, they do not have access to the full range of benefits that American citizens do. Your comment did spark an interest and I've read through the link you posted. Unfortunately I did not find a lot of information there that would back up your assertion. Could you perhaps offer something a little more specific that would point to, as you said,

" Most federal aid programs flow through State based programs. About half the states do not even look at immigrant status (California is an obvious example) let alone illegal immigrant status before dispensing benefits based on need and specially need for assistance for children."

I'd be interested in finding out more about it and to determine the extent of this issue.

The biggest benefit (read political hot potato) that is denied to illegal immigrants was Federal Student aid which is why Pres. Obama did his infamous executive order regarding DACA. Of course today DACA is not eligible for Federal student loans (I would consider that a favor, if a were a DACA / dreamer though considering the mess the program is in. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/sites/d...d-students.pdf

I admit the link I gave was lacking in backup to their statements, but the 'half the states' comment came from there, I believe.

[PointOfViewGun]

Oh my god, are you satisfied? Do you actually just ignore all news that doesn't fit your narrative? Your demands to be provided mainstream media sources, which have been proven to be liars and subject to libel lawsuits as a result of these stories, is laughable. The whole thrust of my argument is that the msm are full of moron, radical reporters doing whatever they can do to push a leftist agenda, which they themselves have admitted to on their own programs, though under the guise of "we are afraid this is how it will be perceived but in spite of us being wrong and indicting teenagers who did nothing but were wearing maga hats trust us we are still respectable." It's pathetic. Even moderate democrats are calling them out. Its the Kavanaugh hearings weaponized.

Shapiro - I watched his full episode live. The fake news media took a clip out of context in order to smear him. It was pathetic.

Maga hat kid - see above, another out of context clip meant to fit the fake news narrative. Which resulted in a full fledged Counterfiet News Network retreat. And that is from a liberal. Here's some more if you're unconvinced.

fake news Cohen story. Need I say more? Your savior Meuller actually made his first public comment in over a year discrediting the buzzfeed story which according to the entire left "If true will lead to immediate impeachment proceedings" line of reasoning

All this took me about five minutes to compile and if you dare to reply to this post without reading and listening to all these sources then I won't waste my time responding to you.

Absolutely pathetic. I look forward to viewing all your sources which will not only refute mine, but prove all the counterpoints true. Somehow I highly doubt you'll be able to do that, especially without subpoena power.

Sigh... No one has to follow the news every single day to your liking. First of all, this is an international forum. No one is obligated to follow the US news outlets every day. Second, they can still ask people to substantiate their claims. Third, not every one is able to follow every single new piece out there all the time. People have lives. So, you can drop such petty arguments.

Thanks for the links but you managed to prove that you're merely throwing a rant with no real substance. Starting with Shapiro, your link provides no real reference to any mainstream media outlet. It merely claims that they used the video at face value. There are no articles on this on CNN, CBS News or MSNBC websites. These are the outlets you're accusing of advancing fake news on Ben Shapiro. The MAGA hat kid, I addressed this in length in its appropriate thread with various links to actual articles and videos from CNN. Here you are posting links to random blog entries and not actual news articles or footage from the incident. The Cohen story bit is the most ironic one. You are posting an article from a mainstream media outlet criticizing a non-mainstream media outlet on making an uncorroborated claim. That's pretty much shooting your position in the face.

Overall, your attempt to substantiate your claims was a pathetic excuse of a post. Basically, the issue here is not two different opinions clashing. It's more like your unsubstantiated rant against actual facts and logic. The lack of any quality whatsoever in your post is your post's own worst enemy.

[conon394]

Of course today DACA is not eligible for Federal student loans (I would consider that a favor, if a were a DACA / dreamer though considering the mess the program is in.

Student loans were perfectly fine since they used to be just adjunct bit of finding, until other funding for universes became systematically eroded over the latest 4-5 decades. Take California in 1960s you could say without much fear of contradiction the State had the finest system of public universities in the world from 2 year community colleges to elite research universities. And than of course the conservative movement happened and we decided to starve education and turn over funding to the students via loans or just let the elite stay elite - Oligarchy.

[NorseThing]

Student loans were perfectly fine since they used to be just adjunct bit of finding, until other funding for universes became systematically eroded over the latest 4-5 decades. Take California in 1960s you could say without much fear of contradiction the State had the finest system of public universities in the world from 2 year community colleges to elite research universities. And than of course the conservative movement happened and we decided to starve education and turn over funding to the students via loans or just let the elite stay elite - Oligarchy.

Do you have any links to your claim the conservative movement destroyed the California higher education system?

California like most publicly funded colleges have been degraded due to a large number of reasons. Remote learning, high labor costs, a misunderstanding what college is meant to prepare people to do with their lives. I could go on. No, I do not have any links for you to read on this. I am genuinely interested in why you made your post though. I would suggest a web search with "problems with remote education college" and see that nearly all links do not take aim at either liberal or conservative political views as a cause.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Sigh... No one has to follow the news every single day to your liking. First of all, this is an international forum. No one is obligated to follow the US news outlets every day. Second, they can still ask people to substantiate their claims. Third, not every one is able to follow every single new piece out there all the time. People have lives. So, you can drop such petty arguments.

Thanks for the links but you managed to prove that you're merely throwing a rant with no real substance. Starting with Shapiro, your link provides no real reference to any mainstream media outlet. It merely claims that they used the video at face value. There are no articles on this on CNN, CBS News or MSNBC websites. These are the outlets you're accusing of advancing fake news on Ben Shapiro. The MAGA hat kid, I addressed this in length in its appropriate thread with various links to actual articles and videos from CNN. Here you are posting links to random blog entries and not actual news articles or footage from the incident. The Cohen story bit is the most ironic one. You are posting an article from a mainstream media outlet criticizing a non-mainstream media outlet on making an uncorroborated claim. That's pretty much shooting your position in the face.

Overall, your attempt to substantiate your claims was a pathetic excuse of a post. Basically, the issue here is not two different opinions clashing. It's more like your unsubstantiated rant against actual facts and logic. The lack of any quality whatsoever in your post is your post's own worst enemy.

The most pathetic tool in the book. "your sources aren't good enough for me." all the while failing to provide any sources of your own. Ignoring facts is a sure fire way to prove that you're right I guess. You haven't actually addressed any of my arguments, maybe because if you did you would be outflanked to an irreconcilable extent. I'd hate to trigger your safe space though.

Alright. See you in the next debate I guess.

[PointOfViewGun]

The most pathetic tool in the book. "your sources aren't good enough for me." all the while failing to provide any sources of your own. Ignoring facts is a sure fire way to prove that you're right I guess. You haven't actually addressed any of my arguments, maybe because if you did you would be outflanked to an irreconcilable extent. I'd hate to trigger your safe space though.

Alright. See you in the next debate I guess.

Really? You expect me to come up with sources while I argue how your sources are not valid ones? Come on. You know what a failure of a response that is. No, when your sources have no value it's not the most pathetic tool in the book to point that out. Notice you have not addressed a single one of my points but proceeded to claim the same about me when in fact I addressed pretty much every example you gave. As I said, this is a pathetic excuse of a post. This is not the way to stand by the claims one makes. Sigh...

[Pontifex Maximus]

Yeah I supplied you with sources in the course of this debate and you didn't at any point. So either pony up or admit your intellectual bankruptcy.

[PointOfViewGun]

Yeah I supplied you with sources in the course of this debate and you didn't at any point. So either pony up or admit your intellectual bankruptcy.

It's not a good idea to defend intellectually bankrupt arguments with claims of intellectual bankruptcy. The fact that you're unable to address any criticism directed towards your claims is quite telling.

[Pontifex Maximus]

It's not a good idea to defend intellectually bankrupt arguments with claims of intellectual bankruptcy. The fact that you're unable to address any criticism directed towards your claims is quite telling.

Jesus even at this point most liberal outlets admit the coverage here was bad. You're incapacity to engage with evidence in a critical manner really just says all that needs to be said.

[PointOfViewGun]

Jesus even at this point most liberal outlets admit the coverage here was bad. You're incapacity to engage with evidence in a critical manner really just says all that needs to be said.

Now we're down to bad coverage from fake news? Sigh... Your game here seems to be to ignore anything I say to avoid addressing actual arguments and throw insults/accusations left and right. As I said, it's not a good idea to defend intellectually bankrupt arguments with claims of intellectual bankruptcy. You're not impressing anyone.