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Thread: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

  1. #221

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    But they are not manbabies demanding a king's ransom for a vanity project he knows full well won't work. Try harder.

    I am curious as to why this incompetent has such a hold on some people.

    https://nypost.com/2019/01/10/trump-...n-be-breached/
    A King's ransom? It is a fraction of the cost of money we pay to foreign governments to supposedly support American interests abroad. The wall's cost is negligible given what Trump wants, it is 1/3 of our yearly tax payer funded payout to Mexico when we cross our fingers and pray they develop themselves in order to diminish illegal immigration. This isn't even an argument.

  2. #222

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    A King's ransom? It is a fraction of the cost of money we pay to foreign governments to supposedly support American interests abroad. The wall's cost is negligible given what Trump wants, it is 1/3 of our yearly tax payer funded payout to Mexico when we cross our fingers and pray they develop themselves in order to diminish illegal immigration. This isn't even an argument.
    What does Trump specifically want as a result of the wall being built?
    The Armenian Issue

  3. #223

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    What does Trump specifically want as a result of the wall being built?
    A reduction of illegal movement of peoples, substances, and specie across the southern border. It's pretty simple. A majority of Americans even support this even if they do not support the means.

    The geniuses over at CNN have obviously obfuscated this point. To those of us not brainwashed by this sort of lazy, racially charged media fully acknowledge the reality of immigration politics.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; January 13, 2019 at 07:30 PM.

  4. #224

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    A reduction of illegal movement of peoples, substances, and specie across the southern border. It's pretty simple. A majority of Americans even support this even if they do not support the means.

    The geniuses over at CNN have obviously obfuscated this point. To those of us not brainwashed by this sort of lazy, racially charged media fully acknowledge the reality of immigration politics.
    We know illegal movement of people across the border doesn't cost the US much. About half of illegal immigration is done through visa overstays and its a growing trend. A wall has no way of combating that. The wall doesn't really address tunnels either, nor do they address drugs smuggled in compartments of cars. Most hard drugs are reported to be smuggled through ports of entry, not weak points in the border. So, the reduction that the wall can produce is quite limited.

    The geniuses over at CNN do not really obfuscate this point. You try to though. You try to conflate support for the wall with support for border security, and you do it quite openly. The means are as important as the end. You can not just dismiss the idiocy of the means to claim validity.

    Wanna give me an estimate on how much reduction the wall can actually produce?
    The Armenian Issue

  5. #225
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    What does Trump specifically want as a result of the wall being built?
    To get him re-elected for a second term? The wall was his campaign promise so he must build it.

  6. #226

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    To get him re-elected for a second term? The wall was his campaign promise so he must build it.
    The promise was to build a wall that Mexico would pay for it.
    The Armenian Issue

  7. #227

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    We know illegal movement of people across the border doesn't cost the US much. About half of illegal immigration is done through visa overstays and its a growing trend. A wall has no way of combating that. The wall doesn't really address tunnels either, nor do they address drugs smuggled in compartments of cars. Most hard drugs are reported to be smuggled through ports of entry, not weak points in the border. So, the reduction that the wall can produce is quite limited.

    The geniuses over at CNN do not really obfuscate this point. You try to though. You try to conflate support for the wall with support for border security, and you do it quite openly. The means are as important as the end. You can not just dismiss the idiocy of the means to claim validity.

    Wanna give me an estimate on how much reduction the wall can actually produce?
    Best part, lets assume bureaucracy moves at its smoothest and funding is provided. Does Ponty suddenly have faith? On border land already owned by the federal government it will be a minimum of a year from funding being provided before shovel hits dirt to put up the new wall. If stars align and bureaucracy moves smoothly. On other lands they have to uhh...replace old wall. Other places they have to go through eminent domain. There are many places where they are still fighting this fight from the Bush years. They will have to fight this fight all over Texas. Texas landowners will fight this tooth and nail.
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  8. #228
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The promise was to build a wall that Mexico would pay for it.
    Emphasis on the wall, he still can claim that he will make Mexico to pay for it in the future but he must build the wall first.
    Actually Im sure his voters would be more than satisfied even if they would have to pay for it, as long he builds it.

  9. #229

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Emphasis on the wall, he still can claim that he will make Mexico to pay for it in the future but he must build the wall first.
    Actually Im sure his voters would be more than satisfied even if they would have to pay for it, as long he builds it.
    I am sure they don't even care if it works or not. Really, we should be able to make a compromise and just build a 50 ft bronze statue of Trump giving the middle finger in the direction of Latin America. It is cheaper than a wall and basically does the same thing his voters want.
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  10. #230
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    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    A reduction of illegal movement of peoples, substances, and specie across the southern border. It's pretty simple. A majority of Americans even support this even if they do not support the means.
    Legalize cocaine and pot rather waste money on a wall.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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  11. #231

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    We know illegal movement of people across the border doesn't cost the US much.
    Agreed. So why do the dems insist on denying the minimal funding to achieve Trump's goals?

    Wanna give me an estimate on how much reduction the wall can actually produce?
    Um, upwards of 90%? Even Democrats supported a physical barrier until five minutes ago lest it mean any sort of victory for a President they have publicly cast as Hitler reborn. I'm even one who has written and published papers that state that funding for the prevention of illegal immigration in 2015 would be best deployed at secondary and tertiary points - IE non-border related added financing. Clearly I was wrong given the latest research.

    So which is it, are the facts actual facts, or are all of these facts and arguments just "racism" and hurr durr "republicans hate brown people"

  12. #232

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Agreed. So why do the dems insist on denying the minimal funding to achieve Trump's goals?
    Because there's no point in spending on a wall that antagonizes Mexico, when the economic cost of illegal immigration is clearly questionable.

    Um, upwards of 90%? Even Democrats supported a physical barrier until five minutes ago lest it mean any sort of victory for a President they have publicly cast as Hitler reborn. I'm even one who has written and published papers that state that funding for the prevention of illegal immigration in 2015 would be best deployed at secondary and tertiary points - IE non-border related added financing. Clearly I was wrong given the latest research.
    Democrats always opposed the wall. The reality has changed now where Democrats now have the political initiative. The fact is, Trump has been unable to push forward his agenda effectively, and is therefore getting the flack for it. Enough with the messiah complex.

    So which is it, are the facts actual facts, or are all of these facts and arguments just "racism" and hurr durr "republicans hate brown people"
    Look up the definition of the word "fact". Hundreds of millions for one sector. What happened to "minimal funding" that Trump needs? How much is this wall going to cost us to cover two thousand miles of terrain?

    See Ponti, if you want to talk about "facts", you'll discover that they are completely detached from your warped view of reality.
    Last edited by Love Mountain; January 15, 2019 at 09:03 PM.

  13. #233

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Agreed. So why do the dems insist on denying the minimal funding to achieve Trump's goals?
    What you agree there and the premise of the question you deny contradict each other. The "minimal funding" you speak of is better used elsewhere as it will not achieve much of Trump's goal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Um, upwards of 90%? Even Democrats supported a physical barrier until five minutes ago lest it mean any sort of victory for a President they have publicly cast as Hitler reborn. I'm even one who has written and published papers that state that funding for the prevention of illegal immigration in 2015 would be best deployed at secondary and tertiary points - IE non-border related added financing. Clearly I was wrong given the latest research.

    So which is it, are the facts actual facts, or are all of these facts and arguments just "racism" and hurr durr "republicans hate brown people"
    Apparently, for you, facts are not actual facts. You made sure that you didn't address any of them. Hence, you saw no problem with using a 90% figure when you know very well about 50% won't even get affected by a wall as they end up in USA illegally because they overstay their visa, a growing trend. Since you disregard actual facts and try to present a number based on a very small data pool to represent the entire picture, you try to confine the discussion to two sides; accepting your "facts" at face value ignoring any actual fact of the matter or that any opposition to your words is just a case of ignorantly calling everything racism.

    Then, of course, you speak of "the latest research" to give yourself a cop-out from your use of double standards; opposing anything the Democrats do (i'm taking your words on their support for a wall at face value for now) and defending anything the Republicans do. What is this "the latest research" is I don't know. What overwhelming recent reporting shows, as I pointed out earlier which you chose to ignore, is that a wall does little to stop drugs or much of illegal immigration. Looking at your Yuma sector fence link and comparing it with Trump's wall specifications shows how different they are, in approach and costs.

    If Trump preferred to focus on stuff like funding a border airborne radar that is capable of tracking objects as small as rabbits (this is already deployed in certain parts of the border) as well as border agents trained to be on the move all the time there would be more merit to his proposal. Yet, what he wants is a medieval wall.

    By the way, the estimation I asked for was in dollars, since you compared it to the investment in an earlier post of yours. How much will the minimal reduction in illegal immigration (with no real impact in smuggling of drugs and contraband) reduce the cost to USA?
    The Armenian Issue

  14. #234

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Because there's no point in spending on a wall that antagonizes Mexico, when the economic cost of illegal immigration is clearly questionable.
    Who cares about antagonizing Mexico? And if the economic cost is questionable, what about the criminal cost? One moronic talking point that has been proliferated like Spanish influenza is that "illegal immigrants commit proportionally less crime than native born Americans."

    1. 100% of them are criminals because 100% of them have broken at least one law.

    2. 100% of crime caused by illegal immigrants is still 100% more crime that should never have occurred but for their illegal immigration.

    Democrats always opposed the wall.
    False.

    +1 for my fake news initiative!

    See Ponti, if you want to talk about "facts", you'll discover that they are completely detached from your warped view of reality.
    Well so far I seem to have a better understanding of the democratic party than you do. If anyone is ignoring facts, well, it seems to be from your end honestly.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    What you agree there and the premise of the question you deny contradict each other. The "minimal funding" you speak of is better used elsewhere as it will not achieve much of Trump's goal.
    Where exactly? Another 5 billion to send to random latin countries for financial aid in an effort to reduce illegal immigration which, based upon level of illegal immigration per annum, have only increased since we started the program initially? The only government program more obviously to have been a failure is the war on drugs.

    Apparently, for you, facts are not actual facts. You made sure that you didn't address any of them. Hence, you saw no problem with using a 90% figure when you know very well about 50% won't even get affected by a wall as they end up in USA illegally because they overstay their visa, a growing trend. Since you disregard actual facts and try to present a number based on a very small data pool to represent the entire picture, you try to confine the discussion to two sides; accepting your "facts" at face value ignoring any actual fact of the matter or that any opposition to your words is just a case of ignorantly calling everything racism.

    Then, of course, you speak of "the latest research" to give yourself a cop-out from your use of double standards; opposing anything the Democrats do (i'm taking your words on their support for a wall at face value for now) and defending anything the Republicans do. What is this "the latest research" is I don't know. What overwhelming recent reporting shows, as I pointed out earlier which you chose to ignore, is that a wall does little to stop drugs or much of illegal immigration. Looking at your Yuma sector fence link and comparing it with Trump's wall specifications shows how different they are, in approach and costs.

    If Trump preferred to focus on stuff like funding a border airborne radar that is capable of tracking objects as small as rabbits (this is already deployed in certain parts of the border) as well as border agents trained to be on the move all the time there would be more merit to his proposal. Yet, what he wants is a medieval wall.

    By the way, the estimation I asked for was in dollars, since you compared it to the investment in an earlier post of yours. How much will the minimal reduction in illegal immigration (with no real impact in smuggling of drugs and contraband) reduce the cost to USA?
    CNN would be proud of this approach, it is straight from their playbook. If you closely analyze your argument, you will see it is devoid of actual substance.

  15. #235
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Apparently, for you, facts are not actual facts. You made sure that you didn't address any of them. Hence, you saw no problem with using a 90% figure when you know very well about 50% won't even get affected by a wall as they end up in USA illegally because they overstay their visa, a growing trend. Since you disregard actual facts and try to present a number based on a very small data pool to represent the entire picture, you try to confine the discussion to two sides; accepting your "facts" at face value ignoring any actual fact of the matter or that any opposition to your words is just a case of ignorantly calling everything racism.
    Snipped a bit....

    What does overstays of VISAs have to do with crossing the border? Yes VISA overstays are a problem, but not the same problem as people we do not review sneaking in....

  16. #236

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Who cares about antagonizing Mexico? And if the economic cost is questionable, what about the criminal cost? One moronic talking point that has been proliferated like Spanish influenza is that "illegal immigrants commit proportionally less crime than native born Americans."
    He says without producing a single shred of information. I would describe this method of argumentation as, moronic.

    1. 100% of them are criminals because 100% of them have broken at least one law.
    And if you de-criminalize illegal immigration than crime drops. Oh and by the way, won't cost a penny. So if you're interested in reducing crime, then decriminalize illegal immigration. Immigrants, who by the way, commit mostly victimless crime.

    2. 100% of crime caused by illegal immigrants is still 100% more crime that should never have occurred but for their illegal immigration.
    He says without realizing that illegal immigrants are often the victims of crimes against them by US citizens. How about we start minimizing crimes against immigrants before we start whining about theirs?



    False.

    +1 for my fake news initiative!
    Ponti is copying his orange haired idol. +1 for Ponti's lie counter. I should start one.


    Well so far I seem to have a better understanding of the democratic party than you do. If anyone is ignoring facts, well, it seems to be from your end honestly.
    I really hope you're saying that ironically. Otherwise this is just really funny considering all the nonsense you've said so far.

    Where exactly? Another 5 billion to send to random latin countries for financial aid in an effort to reduce illegal immigration which, based upon level of illegal immigration per annum, have only increased since we started the program initially? The only government program more obviously to have been a failure is the war on drugs.
    As opposed to spending on a 5 billion dollar wall, which would be neither sufficient to cover the whole border, nor stop drug trade from coming into the US.

    CNN would be proud of this approach, it is straight from their playbook. If you closely analyze your argument, you will see it is devoid of actual substance.
    That's awfully nice coming from you, seeing as how CNN is still a respectable organization. Oh, sorry, were you trying to insult someone? My mistake.

  17. #237

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    He says without producing a single shred of information. I would describe this method of argumentation as, moronic.
    Statements of fact, undisputed, require no evidence. Do you contest that those who enter this country illegally are not in violation of our immigration laws? Honestly this is just tiresome...

    And if you de-criminalize illegal immigration than crime drops. Oh and by the way, won't cost a penny. So if you're interested in reducing crime, then decriminalize illegal immigration. Immigrants, who by the way, commit mostly victimless crime.
    So you admit that illegal immigrants to commit crimes and you purport that we should decriminalize any sort of immigration that falls short of our laws for legal immigration, which is essentially a call for open borders? I wish I could say I was surprised by this radical response. In your favor, the Visigoths would be proud.

    He says without realizing that illegal immigrants are often the victims of crimes against them by US citizens. How about we start minimizing crimes against immigrants before we start whining about theirs?
    Who cares? They shouldn't be here anyway. Any evil that befalls then is taken at their own risk. This is of course being given the uninformed assumption that: 1)they are more likely to fall victim to crime/violence here than in their country of origin and 2) they are less likely to receive state benefits here than in their county of origin. Your argument betrays ignorance of both push and pull factors of illegal immigration and presupposes that the evil white supremacists (all 2,500 of them) in this country are somehow more lethal than the violent gangs and cartels of South America. This opinion is out of touch with reality. When was the last time the KKK lynched a minority? When was the last time a cartel murdered an innocent for whatever reason? Prove me wrong, I'll declare my own idiocy publicly here.

    Ponti is copying his orange haired idol. +1 for Ponti's lie counter. I should start one.
    Please do, I value any discussion where I am proven wrong and forced to evaluate my priorities.

    As opposed to spending on a 5 billion dollar wall, which would be neither sufficient to cover the whole border, nor stop drug trade from coming into the US.
    Even if there's, let's say, a 15% chance it helps, I'd vote to allocate 1/4 of our annual monetary gift to Mexico (which is what this is) in order to fulfill Trump's goal. Why would you rather give Mexico another blank check to stem the tide of illegal immigration for economic development which is proven to have not worked for the past 30 years?

    That's awfully nice coming from you, seeing as how CNN is still a respectable organization. Oh, sorry, were you trying to insult someone? My mistake.
    The fact you believe that speaks volumes. I think you've lost any sort of balanced perspective whatsoever.

  18. #238

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Statements of fact, undisputed, require no evidence. Do you contest that those who enter this country illegally are not in violation of our immigration laws? Honestly this is just tiresome...
    You're using the word "fact" again. Stop, you either don't know or don't care about its actual definition.

    "One moronic talking point that has been proliferated like Spanish influenza is that "illegal immigrants commit proportionally less crime than native born Americans."

    Not a fact.

    So you admit that illegal immigrants to commit crimes and you purport that we should decriminalize any sort of immigration that falls short of our laws for legal immigration, which is essentially a call for open borders? I wish I could say I was surprised by this radical response. In your favor, the Visigoths would be proud.
    So you admit that illegal immigrants commit less crime?

    Who cares? They shouldn't be here anyway. Any evil that befalls then is taken at their own risk. This is of course being given the uninformed assumption that: 1)they are more likely to fall victim to crime/violence here than in their country of origin and 2) they are less likely to receive state benefits here than in their county of origin. Your argument betrays ignorance of both push and pull factors of illegal immigration and presupposes that the evil white supremacists (all 2,500 of them) in this country are somehow more lethal than the violent gangs and cartels of South America. This opinion is out of touch with reality. When was the last time the KKK lynched a minority? When was the last time a cartel murdered an innocent for whatever reason? Prove me wrong, I'll declare my own idiocy publicly here.
    1) Uninformed Assumption
    2) What an irrelevant point.

    Criminals, are more likely to be American, than immigrant. We don't need you to declare anything. You regularly display not just idiocy, but obstinacy, and refusal to engage in good faith debate.

    Please do, I value any discussion where I am proven wrong and forced to evaluate my priorities.
    What a lie. +1

    Even if there's, let's say, a 15% chance it helps, I'd vote to allocate 1/4 of our annual monetary gift to Mexico (which is what this is) in order to fulfill Trump's goal. Why would you rather give Mexico another blank check to stem the tide of illegal immigration for economic development which is proven to have not worked for the past 30 years?
    No, actually I'd rather build a wall too, but not for the reasons you think and not in the way Trump would want.

    The fact you believe that speaks volumes. I think you've lost any sort of balanced perspective whatsoever.
    Says the guy demonizing the CNN.

  19. #239

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    You're using the word "fact" again. Stop, you either don't know or don't care about its actual definition.

    "One moronic talking point that has been proliferated like Spanish influenza is that "illegal immigrants commit proportionally less crime than native born Americans."

    Not a fact.
    I understand facts are hard to contend with since they are in fact facts - which cannot be edited to fit a particular political agenda.

    So you admit that illegal immigrants commit less crime?
    Um no. The exact condition to a 2x situation exists, at a minimum, which exists right now. Illegal immigrants commit at least 1x the crime by their illegal immigration right now.

    1) Uninformed Assumption
    2) What an irrelevant point.

    Criminals, are more likely to be American, than immigrant. We don't need you to declare anything. You regularly display not just idiocy, but obstinacy, and refusal to engage in good faith debate.



    What a lie. +1



    No, actually I'd rather build a wall too, but not for the reasons you think and not in the way Trump would want.



    Says the guy demonizing the CNN.
    [/quote]

    *uninformed, easily debunked social justice warrior bs*

  20. #240

    Default Re: Fake News Clarification: Volume One

    Ao decriminalize illegal immigration. You seem so concerned woth crime. And pick up a dictionary.

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