Slinger Hoplites

[Garbad]

Any word on when they might be introduced?

[KAM 2150]

Well we haven't even decided if we will introduce them at all

[ThePoshBarbarian]

Were they even a real thing?

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Rhodian hoplites in the Anabasis at a point were said to have been convinced to fight as slingers rather than hoplites when the group was in dire need of additional ranged troops to fight off the Persians.

[son of romans]

Having such hoplites with Rhodos will make campaign with them worth it...now Rhodos is just first target for conquest with a general and mercenaries...with close helenic factions.

[Frosthammer]

Often when i think about ancient warfare, i wonder why various melee troops didn`t used bow/sling/jav/pilla like romans legionaries or arabian spear archers. A little missile weapon shouldn't weigh too much but obviously profitable. Also i wonder why other faction didn't use pilla instead ordinary jav.

[Nordling]

Well we haven't even decided if we will introduce them at all

I highly hope you don't. Hoplites are all about heavy push, close formations and shield protection. How do you want to fire slings from such a close & dense formation? They would poke each others' eyes. Loosening the formation would then be against the whole philosophy of hoplite warfare.

You either are a skirmishing slinger or a hoplite. You can't have your cake and eat it.

[KAM 2150]

Well you had Ekdromoi.

[Nordling]

Well you had Ekdromoi.

KAM, I am absolutely sure that you are a better expert on this topic than me. But I wonder - how on earth can you wield a sling, heavy aspis and a dory? From what I know they could fight in phalanx with standard hoplites so they had to use same/similar equipment.

I would say that while said ekdromoi could be potentially used as slingers, they would have to leave both shield & spear behind in order to effictively use a sling. Theres a reason why peltastai did not fight ekdromoi - they had heavier equipment with longer spears, bigger shields and better training. Just my opinion tho.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

I remember discussing about them. But AFAIK we haven't decided yet, like KAM said.

[KAM 2150]

KAM, I am absolutely sure that you are a better expert on this topic than me. But I wonder - how on earth can you wield a sling, heavy aspis and a dory? From what I know they could fight in phalanx with standard hoplites so they had to use same/similar equipment.

I would say that while said ekdromoi could be potentially used as slingers, they would have to leave both shield & spear behind in order to effictively use a sling. Theres a reason why peltastai did not fight ekdromoi - they had heavier equipment with longer spears, bigger shields and better training. Just my opinion tho.

Sorry, I was typing from a phone so I kept the message short I actually agree with you on hoplite/sling thing, just had to point out that Ekdromoi did not fit your description.

With this unit there are two sides of me speaking:
Creative side thinks they are uniqe addition and are plausible due to records of Anabasis.
My degree in history on the other hand tells me that this case in Anabasis was special situation and in any other scenario they would just hire local slingers, if they would not have been on the hostile territory. Also Anabasis was a bit long time away from our timeframe and we don't know how much of their original equipment those Rhodian hoplites have left on them once they adopted slings.

[Dresden]

It sounds to me more like a weird exception or circumstance that is especially noted due to that reason, not a common place thing over time. Historically you have to think of the sources and circumstances as KAM described. For example, finding a burial with certain ornamental gear or types of weapons doesn't always mean that all men used that or even that they were necessarily used in battle. Just one example, but you get the idea.

[Dumanthis]

So basicly Rhodian slingers with heavy armor and hoplon shields rip enemy of missile units

[Ivan_Moscavich]

It is also vague whether the hoplites were convinced to leave behind their shield and spear or not.

The way it is phrased seems to imply they weren't happy about being asked to sling. But nevertheless they did comply and were efficient in countering the Persian range troops.

Also literally any troop could carry a sling on them. You can fold them up and wrap them around your head, put them in a pocket, or around your waist like a belt.

I think it would be an interesting addition specifically to the rhodian roster, but I also agree that it seems like a very unusual and specially noted circumstance. Nothing that would be a common troop type.

As to how to implement them. That's easy you just also give that unit the loose spacing command. And then when they are using the slings you have them in loose spacing. When they're in hoplite formation you have them back and close spacing.

Just giving Rhodes and upgraded Slinger with bronze muscle curious and a hot blonde Shield would be hilarious. But very a historical.

[KYREAPER]

I agree with calling their use "special" and not including them. It wasnt common, and they were used on a special bases when normal range troops were in short supply.
That typically doesnt happen in this game, as range units are super cheap and all factions have range units in their lowest populations.

I think its such a super small historical use that can be happily left out.

[Dresden]

Sounds like maybe a good idea for a submod - perhaps various lesser used special cases.

[Kirsch27]

This kind of stuff reminds me of some of the problems that plagued Europa Barbarorum's unit creators, especially early on. There were some really controversial units in that mod, like some iberian super-hammer-boys and some big irish meatmashers too... historical sourcing for these units was really limited and possibly even wrong, but they got put in and then eventually taken out in a later patch, wasting a lot of work for people who designed the units in the process. Might be best to leave these sorts of really weird units to the sub-mods, because I really don't think slinger-hoplites are going to be A- realistic and B - balanced at all, no matter HOW you build them. The only reason archer-spearmen aren't disgustingly over-powered is because they don't get a badass formation and they have no armor. Slinger-hoplites by definition would be carrying a hoplon and presumably capable of forming into a phalanx on demand, AND have slings which out range bows and pierce armor. Let's not unleash that upon our semi-historical Hellenistic playground, please

(They sound super-badass though, I definitely want to play with them in a custom battle. Just don't give me the option to actually use them ingame lol...)

[Darth Pooh]

I've read that for the Greeks there was no honour in being a skirmisher and they only started implementing irregular troops (i. e. non-hoplites) during the Peloponnesian War. Old sentiments die hard so maybe the main reason why those Rhodians had to be convinced was that they didn't want to transform into "craven" missile troops.

[zoner16]

I've read that for the Greeks there was no honour in being a skirmisher and they only started implementing irregular troops (i. e. non-hoplites) during the Peloponnesian War. Old sentiments die hard so maybe the main reason why those Rhodians had to be convinced was that they didn't want to transform into "craven" missile troops.

There's a couple of fantastic AskHistorians posts on this very subject:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria..._less/d0b4jjn/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria...rs_to_survive/

TL;DR - Irregular/mixed troops would have preceded the hoplite, but for a variety of reasons, the citizen-hoplite became the "ideal" around the 5th century BC. However, they never stopped being incredibly effective, so everyone kept using them despite their disdain.

[Darth Pooh]

There's a couple of fantastic AskHistorians posts on this very subject:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria..._less/d0b4jjn/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria...rs_to_survive/

TL;DR - Irregular/mixed troops would have preceded the hoplite, but for a variety of reasons, the citizen-hoplite became the "ideal" around the 5th century BC. However, they never stopped being incredibly effective, so everyone kept using them despite their disdain.

Exactly and thank you for the additional sources Another interesting thing is how implementing irregular troops (archers, slingers, peltasts ...) increased the number of casualties during the conflict. It surprised me that in a regular hoplite battle the casualties were few and usually there wasn't any pursuit of fleeing soldiers (it wasn't honourable), while irregular warfare is precisely about inflicting heavy losses on the enemy troops from a distance. That's why Socrates and Plato critized using skirmishers in war because it changed the nature of Greek conflict from honourable match of citizen soldiers into barbaric slaughter. That's why I never pursuit fleeing enemy while playing as any Greek city state